Holder still lying to congress...

[CosmicCowboy]

Stop beating around the bush, and just point me to where you got the info that all these guns were untracked.

Heck, even Dodson in the testimony you just linked says they were ordered to "watch, track and note". Just not act. Apparently, the ATF was indeed tracking. So much for an admission.

I'll tell you this much: If they were indeed all untracked, it's definitely criminal. If they were tracked and some got lost, then it's still negligent, and somebody should pay, although it's somewhat understandable that these things happens in operations of this scope. Which is why, personally, I think operations like this just shouldn't be on the table to begin with, because the risk is indeed a Border Patrol agent dead using American guns.

I'll be the last to defend Holder. He's a politician, and much like all of them, he will lie. That said, there's no color here. If the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", to exploit on a political basis, much like Issa has done, we can apply that to a lot of red team members as well.

Lastly, and I say this sadly, I personally don't think this has the political weight you assign to it, at all. November will be very likely decided by the state of the economy. Jobs, etc. As it normally is.

How much testimony do you need from the agents that were there? They were ORDERED not to follow the guns.

[CosmicCowboy]

We now know that the plan came from the highest levels of the justice department. They knew all about Fast and Furious and the guns walking. Holder just bald faced lied about it to Congress yesterday.

this may end up being bigger than you think.

Then again, maybe not.

As you said, the economy sucks too.

[ElNono]

How much testimony do you need from the agents that were there? They were ORDERED not to follow the guns.

Dodson himself says he was ordered to "watch, track and note" the guns and deals, just not make arrests. That's exactly the opposite of being ORDERED not to follow the guns. They were certainly ordered not to make arrests, but that would make somewhat sense if this was a tracking operation involving other agencies.

We now know that the plan came from the highest levels of the justice department. They knew all about Fast and Furious and the guns walking. Holder just bald faced lied about it to Congress yesterday.

this may end up being bigger than you think.

Then again, maybe not.

As you said, the economy sucks too.

I don't think there's a smoking gun. If Issa finds a memo from the DoJ, ATF or DEA that explicitly says guns should flow untracked, then you have the smoking gun and the "scandal". I'm not aware that such do ent even exists. AFAIK, Issa doesn't either and he's going to bat with what he has, because the election is in November, and political points need to be scored now.

But again, I don't think the average american really gives two s about this with the economy in the shape it is. Heck, talking points like that foodstamp story on the other thread probably will garner 1000x the attention.

[Nbadan]

I don't think there's a smoking gun. If Issa finds a memo from the DoJ, ATF or DEA that explicitly says guns should flow untracked, then you have the smoking gun and the "scandal". I'm not aware that such do ent even exists. AFAIK, Issa doesn't either and he's going to bat with what he has, because the election is in November, and political points need to be scored now.

Sooooo.......Holder didn't lie.

[ElNono]

Sooooo.......Holder didn't lie.

Sure he did. Those emails are pretty clear. The question is whether it was a up or something more grotesque. A up can happen, although he's not going to admit to it, seeing Issa is only interested in the political points.

[Wild Cobra]

How much testimony do you need from the agents that were there? They were ORDERED not to follow the guns.

If that was the order, then who ever gave the order needs to be in prison for life. I would feel different if there was some kind of high tech tracker on in the weapons to bust the final buyers, but allowing to arm these criminal elements, when they could have stopped it...

ing insane.

[CosmicCowboy]

If that was the order, then who ever gave the order needs to be in prison for life. I would feel different if there was some kind of high tech tracker on in the weapons to bust the final buyers, but allowing to arm these criminal elements, when they could have stopped it...

ing insane.

It's right thee in the agents testimony. They had the straw buyer, the cartel buyer, and the guns all together time after time after time and they were ordered to back off and let the guns go with the cartel buyer instead of arresting them both and recovering the guns.

[Yonivore]

Sure he did. Those emails are pretty clear. The question is whether it was a up or something more grotesque. A up can happen, although he's not going to admit to it, seeing Issa is only interested in the political points.

Intentional gun-walking resulting in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican citizens and two U. S. Agents and not a dent in the cartels the U.S. Government armed?

It's something more grotesque.

[boutons_deux]

PussyEater, where's your outrage about 4000 US soldiers dead in Iraq to grab the oil?

and "not a dent" in US's insecurity?

[George Gervin's Afro]

No wmds 4000+ dead zero outrage..fast&furious.. life priaon sentences..lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

If that was the order, then who ever gave the order needs to be in prison for life. I would feel different if there was some kind of high tech tracker on in the weapons to bust the final buyers, but allowing to arm these criminal elements, when they could have stopped it...

ing insane.

What type of sentence should we give to those whose orders caused 4000+ dead gi's?

[ElNono]

Intentional gun-walking resulting in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican citizens and two U. S. Agents and not a dent in the cartels the U.S. Government armed?

It's something more grotesque.

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder, and Mexican citizens were being murdered by cartels before him too. Don't recall you being up in arms then.

I don't also recall you being up in arms either when a former prez lied about WMD, which ended up in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians, thousands of US soldiers and millions of Iraqi displaced.

Like I said, if the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", we need to start adding a lot of different cases to the list. There's plenty of similar or even more egregorious instances on the red team.

[CosmicCowboy]

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder, and Mexican citizens were being murdered by cartels before him too. Don't recall you being up in arms then.

I don't also recall you being up in arms either when a former prez lied about WMD, which ended up in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians, thousands of US soldiers and millions of Iraqi displaced.

Like I said, if the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", we need to start adding a lot of different cases to the list. There's plenty of similar or even more egregorious instances on the red team.

Watch out..you are so blindly blue team you may turn into a smurf.

[CosmicCowboy]

What type of sentence should we give to those whose orders caused 4000+ dead gi's?

nice straw man.

[ElNono]

Watch out..you are so blindly blue team you may turn into a smurf.

Why? I'm not making excuses for Holder. If he ed up, there should be consequences. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of red team members when it comes to holding everybody to the same standards. Not sure why you take offense, unless you're a red team member...

[Wild Cobra]

What type of sentence should we give to those whose orders caused 4000+ dead gi's?

Different argument. Want a response from me on the topic, revive the correct thread or make a new one.

[Wild Cobra]

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder,

Not from what I have read. Yes, they had operations to track weapons, but they never let them get away from them before. It appears Holder expanded on the original operation.

[CosmicCowboy]

Neither you or Issa know that. Intentional gun-walking predates Holder, and Mexican citizens were being murdered by cartels before him too. Don't recall you being up in arms then.

I don't also recall you being up in arms either when a former prez lied about WMD, which ended up in the death of thousands of Iraqi civilians, thousands of US soldiers and millions of Iraqi displaced.

Like I said, if the narrative is "Holder lied, people died", we need to start adding a lot of different cases to the list. There's plenty of similar or even more egregorious instances on the red team.

I am on record in here saying we should get the out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let those heathen mother ers kill each other. I don't give a .

I am also on record in here saying that the US should legalize and tax marijuana and that would eliminate the bulk of the cartels income and give them less power and control in Mexico. I'm fine with them killing each other. I'm not fine with ATF giving them the guns to kill our border patrol agents. Would they get guns anyway? Of course, but I am not ready to give Holders justice department a pass for doing it. I honestly think this whole operation was political. They wanted to make sure that people were killed with guns they could do ent were purchased in the US so they could use that as the reason to tighten gun laws in the US.

Does that sound like I'm blindly red team?

[CosmicCowboy]

Not from what I have read. Yes, they had operations to track weapons, but they never let them get away from them before. It appears Holder expanded on the original operation.

Not entirely true, but it wasn't because they didn't try...on the previous operation under Bush they were working with the Mexican government and literally put trackers in the guns...they had some technical problems with the trackers on some and did lose them, but it's not because they weren't trying.

Of Course, now ElSmurfo will say "See! You admit guns got away under Bush!"

[Wild Cobra]

Of Course, now ElSmurfo will say "See! You admit guns got away under Bush!"

Yes, I can see ElNoKnow saying that.

[ElNono]

Not from what I have read. Yes, they had operations to track weapons, but they never let them get away from them before. It appears Holder expanded on the original operation.

So intentionally walking guns predates Holder, exactly what I said.

We don't know if "they let them get away" or they lost track of them. Exactly what we've been discussing here.

[Wild Cobra]

So intentionally walking guns predates Holder, exactly what I said.

We don't know if "they let them get away" or they lost track of them. Exactly what we've been discussing here.

There is a huge difference intending to maintain control and purposely losing control of such weapons. One is a grey area, the other is absolutely not acceptable.

[TeyshaBlue]

PussyEater, where's your outrage about 4000 US soldiers dead in Iraq to grab the oil?

and "not a dent" in US's insecurity?

lol @ deflection

[ElNono]

I am on record in here saying we should get the out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let those heathen mother ers kill each other. I don't give a .

Me too, that doesn't mean that administration outright lied to go there. People here needs to stop pretending only one team lies to advance whatever they want to advance, or that they do it on some higher moral ground. Both teams do it, they do it all the time, and it should be reprehensible no matter who does it, especially when it ends up costing lives.

I am also on record in here saying that the US should legalize and tax marijuana and that would eliminate the bulk of the cartels income and give them less power and control in Mexico. I'm fine with them killing each other. I'm not fine with ATF giving them the guns to kill our border patrol agents. Would they get guns anyway? Of course, but I am not ready to give Holders justice department a pass for doing it. I honestly think this whole operation was political. They wanted to make sure that people were killed with guns they could do ent were purchased in the US so they could use that as the reason to tighten gun laws in the US.

Does that sound like I'm blindly red team?

I don't think Holder's DoJ should get a pass either. I actually think neither Holder or the previous DoJ officials should get a pass for running operations like this. It's obvious the risks outweight whatever gains. That said, and as I pointed out earlier, what Issa is doing is trying to score political points. He doesn't give a about the border patrol agents, the guns, the cartels or anything else. An actual investigation should be able to determine by now which guns walked and which ones did not, and what are we looking at: Negligence or outright criminal activity.

Issa isn't interested in that at all. This administration isn't interested in running such an investigation either, seeing how politically charged is this subject. Again, this is far from team colors. This is the political climate we're living in today.

[ElNono]

There is a huge difference intending to maintain control and purposely losing control of such weapons. One is a grey area, the other is absolutely not acceptable.

Agree, but there's absolutely no proof they purposely lost control of the weapons. I've been asking for proof of that, and so far: nothing. Post it if you have it. Issa doesn't have it. Let's see what you have.