Holder still lying to congress...

[ElNono]

Okay, perused the article. Nothing in there about deflecting blame to the Bush Administration; which was my point.

From the article:
Republicans, however, expressed skepticism that senior Obama administration officials had not authorized — or at least known about — the tactics. Democrats pushed back, pointing out that A.T.F. agents used similar tactics in other Arizona cases during the Bush administration.

[Yonivore]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/us...d-furious.html
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-07/p..._s=PM:POLITICS
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...do ents?lite
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/holde...ry?id=14693578
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...WLV_video.html

Not one investigative report among them.

Issa is running a witch hunt, not an investigation. That's why he's more than happy to go to the media first before even receiving an official investigation. Not surprised which party he's from.

Agent Terry was shot with F&F guns in December of 2010; I think an investigation should have already been completed. But, it does raise the salient point that Secretary Napolitano and General Holder claim to have never discussed the murder of Agent Terry -- which resulted from an operation jointly overseen by both of them.

I don't think anybody knows that yet, including you and Issa. There's supposedly an investigation being conducted to determine if the tactics used were any different from the previous administration. The conclusions of such investigation aren't available yet.

That's kind of the point. A curious media has rarely waited for investigations to investigate. If I'm not mistaken, in the time it's taken between Agent Terry's murder and now, President Nixon was already well on his way to resignation. And, I would argue, Fast & Furious is a much more significant scandal than covering up a second rate burglary of your opponent's campaign headquarters. But, that's just me.

When your major criticism/political point is that innocent people died due to a politician lying, it's absolutely germane.

There's been no lie proven that got us into the Iraq war. That's all partisan bickering. And, no, it's not germane to this discussion...it's merely diversion.

[Yonivore]

From the article:
Republicans, however, expressed skepticism that senior Obama administration officials had not authorized — or at least known about — the tactics. Democrats pushed back, pointing out that A.T.F. agents used similar tactics in other Arizona cases during the Bush administration.

And, yet, no media outlet is picking up that meme for the Democrats and making the case for equivalency. Reporting what Democrats are saying and what is being said in a congressional hearing is not investigative reporting.

[ElNono]

Not one investigative report among them.

You asked for coverage. That's coverage.

Agent Terry was shot with F&F guns in December of 2010; I think an investigation should have already been completed. But, it does raise the salient point that Secretary Napolitano and General Holder claim to have never discussed the murder of Agent Terry -- which resulted from an operation jointly overseen by both of them.

What does that has to do with Issa being on a witch hunt?

That's kind of the point. A curious media has rarely waited for investigations to investigate. If I'm not mistaken, in the time it's taken between Agent Terry's murder and now, President Nixon was already well on his way to resignation. And, I would argue, Fast & Furious is a much more significant scandal than covering up a second rate burglary of your opponent's campaign headquarters. But, that's just me.

Media might not have access to the information. Again, this is what you're going with, a media conspiracy?

There's been no lie proven that got us into the Iraq war. That's all partisan bickering. And, no, it's not germane to this discussion...it's merely diversion.

Sure there has been. You simply hold people to different standards depending whose party they're from. But as I said earlier, your dishonesty isn't new.

And, yet, no media outlet is picking up that meme for the Democrats and making the case for equivalency. Reporting what Democrats are saying and what is being said in a congressional hearing is not investigative reporting.

What should the media say, Yoni? Based on what? What do you really think the media knows and they're not letting out? lol

[Yonivore]

You asked for coverage. That's coverage.

I'm sorry you weren't able to resolve the finer point being made that I desire INVESTIGATIVE reporting.

What does that has to do with Issa being on a witch hunt?

Well, for one, I don't believe it's a witch hunt. I believe real crimes were committed by agents of the federal government and I also believe it is well withing Congressman Issa's charge as Chair of the House Oversight Committee to see how far up the food chain the putrid scandal extends.

Media might not have access to the information. Again, this is what you're going with, a media conspiracy?

Sharyl Attkisson has done some pretty good work from which others could take a lead.

Sure there has been. You simply hold people to different standards depending whose party they're from. But as I said earlier, your dishonesty isn't new.

No, there hasn't.

What should the media say, Yoni? Based on what? What do you really think the media knows and they're not letting out? lol

I don't think they know anything. I just don't think there is any widespread media curiosity on the scandal.

[ElNono]

I'm sorry you weren't able to resolve the finer point being made that I desire INVESTIGATIVE reporting.

What you asked:

No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?

What you desire is well known AND irrelevant, Yoni. You're as partisan hack as they come, not much different than Issa.

Well, for one, I don't believe it's a witch hunt.

Of course you don't. Nobody here expect any different.

CosmicCowboy I don't consider a partisan cheerleader. I can't say the same about you though.

No, there hasn't.

Sure there has. I don't expect you to agree with me though.

I don't think they know anything. I just don't think there is any widespread media curiosity on the scandal.

So you want them to do "investigative journalism" without knowing anything? Sounds like something you do all the time, tbh.

[Yonivore]

What you asked:

No, you're right. I'll hold your hand better in the future.

Sure there has. I don't expect you to agree with me though.

What was the specific lie?

I mean, in Holder's case, the latest is the is able to look Chairman Issa in the face and say an internal email that specifically discusses "Fast and Furious" doesn't discuss "Fast and Furious."

So you want them to do "investigative journalism" without knowing anything? Sounds like something you do all the time, tbh.

It's called developing sources. The New York Times is pretty adept at disclosing secret government programs using unnamed sources within the government. No reason they couldn't develop similar sources within a de able scandal such as "Fast and Furious."

Woodward and Bernstein used an unnamed source named "Deep Throat."

Sharyl Attkisson has used government sources to break much of her investigative coverage of "Fast & Furious."

What do want them to do just wait until the government tells them the truth on matters?

[ElNono]

No, you're right. I'll move the goalposts better in the future.

Isn't that what you always do?

What was the specific lie?

There were no WMDs in Iraq.

I mean, in Holder's case, the latest is the is able to look Chairman Issa in the face and say an internal email that specifically discusses "Fast and Furious" doesn't discuss "Fast and Furious."

I didn't say Holder didn't lie. I've stated the opposite actually.

It's called developing sources. The New York Times is pretty adept at disclosing secret government programs using unnamed sources within the government. No reason they couldn't develop similar sources within a de able scandal such as "Fast and Furious."

They've done that with other insider stories in this administration. Not sure you're aware an investigation was recently launched by the administration over leaks to the media, including specifically the NYTimes.

You still haven't told me what you think the NYTimes is hiding about "Fast and Furious.", and based on what?

Woodward and Bernstein used an unnamed source named "Deep Throat."

There's no unnamed source here. Not sure what makes you think the media has one, or if they do, they won't use it, considering they've done so in the past, including during this administration. Again, what do you think the media is hiding?

BTW, the Watergate scandal had a smoking gun, namely the audio tape between Nixon and Haldeman in the oval office. There's no "smoking gun" in this case (yet).

What do want them to do just wait until the government tells them the truth on matters?

Have the relevant, non-partisan authorities conduct an investigation. Such a novel concept.

[Yonivore]

Isn't that what you always do?

I've admitted to not being clear enough for you. What do you want? The links you posted could have been reported by anyone with C-SPAN on their television.

Scandals are rarely exposed by merely reporting what everyone can see for themselves.

But, again, I'll be more explicit in the future just for you.

There were no WMDs in Iraq.

Debatable but, not a lie. There were WMDs in Iraq just not the stockpiles that were expected. Nonetheless, the lie would be where the Bush administration knowingly said there were when they demonstrably knew there weren't any WMD's in Iraq.

Where was that lie? It didn't occur.

I didn't say Holder didn't lie. I've stated the opposite actually.

And, you're satisfied to just wait until this all just resolves itself through government investigations?

They've done that with other insider stories in this administration. Not sure you're aware an investigation was recently launched by the administration over leaks to the media, including specifically the NYTimes.

Funny how the Democrats lauded the leaks when done in the Bush administration but, now, want heads to roll in an Obama administration. And, speaking of partisan hackery; remember how awful it was that Valerie Plame was outed by the Bush Administration to the point a special prosecutor was appointed to discover something that was already widely known; that Richard Armitage was the government official that outed her to Bob Novak?

But, now we've got a true case of real secret agents being compromised and endangered by sources feeding the New York Times and the best Obama can do is investigate? Where's the special prosecutor?

You still haven't told me what you think the NYTimes is hiding about "Fast and Furious.", and based on what?

I don't know that they're hiding anything. I don't even know if they've bothered to look into it beyond what can be viewed on C-SPAN.

I've never claimed the media was hiding anything related to Fast & Furious; just that they have an obvious incuriosity about what appears to be a fairly significant scandal.

There's no unnamed source here. Not sure what makes you think the media has one, or if they do, they won't use it, considering they've done so in the past, including during this administration. Again, what do you think the media is hiding?

Never said they were hiding anything. Are you suggesting they are trying to develop sources and failing?

BTW, the Watergate scandal had a smoking gun, namely the audio tape between Nixon and Haldeman in the oval office. There's no "smoking gun" in this case (yet).

There are literally thousands of actual smoking guns, hundreds of dead Mexicans, and one dead federal agent.

Have the relevant, non-partisan authorities conduct an investigation. Such a novel concept.

Good luck with that.

[ElNono]

I've admitted to not being clear enough for you.

I disagree, I thought you were pretty clear, your claim just didn't pan out. I can see where that sucks for you.

Debatable but, not a lie.

Disagree here too. Absolutely a lie. Made even more embarrassing by the fact we sent a general to lie in front of the the entire UN security council with fabricated "intel".

lol mobile chemical weapons labs

And, you're satisfied to just wait until this all just resolves itself through government investigations?

Never said that, actually I said the opposite. Heads should roll once we know what transpired. Sadly, we have precedent like Alberto Gonzales lying to Congress too and nothing coming out of it.

Funny how the Democrats lauded the leaks when done in the Bush administration but, now, want heads to roll in an Obama administration.

Yet, Issa is all for leaks now, apparently. Heck, you can't wait for some insider source to leak something about "fast and furious".

Pot meet kettle.

I don't know that they're hiding anything. I don't even know if they've bothered to look into it beyond what can be viewed on C-SPAN.

So you don't know, but you already made up your mind anyways...

I've never claimed the media was hiding anything related to Fast & Furious; just that they have an obvious incuriosity about what appears to be a fairly significant scandal.

Scandals sell. We know that much.

Never said they were hiding anything. Are you suggesting they are trying to develop sources and failing?

No, I'm merely stating that they might not have an inside source in this case. Sources with direct access to verifiable information might not be as easy to find as you think they are. Somebody coming out there and saying "blah blah" doesn't mean anything if there's no do entation to back it up.

There are literally thousands of actual smoking guns, hundreds of dead Mexicans, and one dead federal agent.

That's simply no proof of wrongdoing. It could've been just a up (and whoever responsible for it should pay the consequences). But Issa isn't interested in that, since it doesn't score him the political points he wants to score.

Good luck with that.

Well, I'll take facts over speculation any day of the week now.

[Yonivore]

I disagree, I thought you were pretty clear, your claim just didn't pan out. I can see where that sucks for you.

Okay.

Disagree here too. Absolutely a lie. Made even more embarrassing by the fact we sent a general to lie in front of the the entire UN security council with fabricated "intel".

lol mobile chemical weapons labs

You still haven't said what, exactly, was the lie. Bad Intel? Sure, could be. Mistaken assumptions? Could be. Flat out mistakes? Quite possible. But, lies? You haven't said what exactly was the lie.

Never said that, actually I said the opposite. Heads should roll once we know what transpired. Sadly, we have precedent like Alberto Gonzales lying to Congress too and nothing coming out of it.

Glad to hear you're in favor of a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of it then.

Yet, Issa is all for leaks now, apparently. Heck, you can't wait for some insider source to leak something about "fast and furious".

Pot meet kettle.

What's Issa leaking? Other than he's in possession of information that proves Holder is a liar, nothing.

So you don't know, but you already made up your mind anyways...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure crimes have been committed and I'm also fairly certain the lies reach at least to the level of the Attorney General's office.

Scandals sell. We know that much.

Then you'd think they'd be raking the bottoms for their own Deep Throat on this matter.

No, I'm merely stating that they might not have an inside source in this case. Sources with direct access to verifiable information might not be as easy to find as you think they are. Somebody coming out there and saying "blah blah" doesn't mean anything if there's no do entation to back it up.

We'll see. It appears someone provided Issa's office with some inside information.

That's simply no proof of wrongdoing. It could've been just a up (and whoever responsible for it should pay the consequences). But Issa isn't interested in that, since it doesn't score him the political points he wants to score.

Well, there is proof Holder lied about when and how much his office knew about Fast and Furious.

Well, I'll take facts over speculation any day of the week now.

You don't care about facts.

[ElNono]

You still haven't said what, exactly, was the lie. Bad Intel? Sure, could be. Mistaken assumptions? Could be. Flat out mistakes? Quite possible. But, lies? You haven't said what exactly was the lie.

Sure I did. No weapons of mass destruction. No mobile chemical weapons labs. No imminent danger. Politicians lied, people died.

Glad to hear you're in favor of a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of it then.

Sure, I fully support a non-partisan investigation. The problem for Issa is that the election is in November, and he needs to harvest his political points before then.

What's Issa leaking? Other than he's in possession of information that proves Holder is a liar, nothing.

I didn't say Issa was leaking, I said you and Issa would love to see a secret informant popping out and spilling dirt.

Heck, you're *demanding* that the New York Times develops such source. Apparently, you're ok with leaks when they point their fingers to the blue team, but they're shameful when they point to the red team. Partisanship and hypocrisy at it's finest, tbh.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure crimes have been committed and I'm also fairly certain the lies reach at least to the level of the Attorney General's office.

Based on what?

Then you'd think they'd be raking the bottoms for their own Deep Throat on this matter.

Do you know that they're not?

We'll see. It appears someone provided Issa's office with some inside information.

I'm sure Issa is eager to notify the general public about it. Not sure the general public cares, however.

Well, there is proof Holder lied about when and how much his office knew about Fast and Furious.

Politicians lying isn't necessarily a shocker or scandal. Politics wouldn't exist if that'd be the case. In my opinion, what's going to make or brake this case is an actual do ent showing premeditated wrongdoing.

I don't care about facts.

Do you ever? lol

[Yonivore]

Sure I did. No weapons of mass destruction. No mobile chemical weapons labs. No imminent danger. Politicians lied, people died.

Where is your proof they knew what they were saying was wrong?

George Tenet said it was a slam dunk.

The allegation Vice President Cheney's office tried to bias the intelligence was investigated and unfounded.

Perhaps they were just wrong. That's not a lie.

Sure, I fully support a non-partisan investigation. The problem for Issa is that the election is in November, and he needs to harvest his political points before then.

Congress is elected every two years, when would you propose they do their jobs? Besides, Issa has been asking for Holder to produce do ents and testimony since early last year.

I think if Holder had been cooperative he could have had this behind him by now. Unless, of course, he has something to hide.

I didn't say Issa was leaking, I said you and Issa would love to see a secret informant popping out and spilling dirt.

I'd rather see Holder be forthcoming.

Heck, you're *demanding* that the New York Times develops such source. Apparently, you're ok with leaks when they point their fingers to the blue team, but they're shameful when they point to the red team. Partisanship and hypocrisy at it's finest, tbh.

No, just curious why NYTimes isn't as curious about this as it is about national secrets.

[ChumpDumper]

yoni's best defense of Bush is that he was a complete idiot and thousands of Americans died because his stupidity.

[ElNono]

Where is your proof they knew what they were saying was wrong?

Colin Powell himself demanded an explanation from the Pentagon and the CIA as to why he was lied to. But you probably know something the general doesn't.

And BTW, even if the intel was unreliable, the "source" didn't fabricate the BS videos shown at the UN of "mobile chemical weapons labs". Ultimately, politicians lied, people died.

Oh and the last person that should be asking for "proof" is you. You have to submit yourself to the same standard first.

Congress is elected every two years, when would you propose they do their jobs? Besides, Issa has been asking for Holder to produce do ents and testimony since early last year.

What was stopping Issa from asking for a special prosecutor back then and letting the investigation run it's course? Oh, right, he can't get to score his political points while an independent investigation is conducted, and it's not even a sure thing he could get the support he needs to get a special prosecutor.

Better get on with the dog and pony show, elections are coming up.

I think if Holder had been cooperative he could have had this behind him by now. Unless, of course, he has something to hide.

Perhaps Holder feels this is a political show, and should there be any will to actually conduct a formal, independent investigation, one would've been launched by now. But I can only tell you what it looks like from the outside. As an American, I would love to have some independent party to get to the bottom of this. The problem is Issa isn't independent, and has a concrete agenda. That doesn't mean Holder is a saint, or any such thing. The problem is that this political circus show simply delays what should've been a swift investigation into this matter a long time ago.

I'd rather see Holder be forthcoming.

I would rather see a lot of politicians be forthcoming. That includes former attorney general Gonzales lying to Congress. But politicians have a way of lying and getting away with it. That includes Barry, red team, blue team, etc obviously.

No, just curious why NYTimes isn't as curious about this as it is about national secrets.

How do you know they're not as curious?

[Wild Cobra]

But he isn't... not even close.

lol male cheerleader

Sorry, I can't help it. I think your insane form of attacks rubbed off on me. I think you deserve the same stupid line of attacks you do to me. Don't you?

[Wild Cobra]

No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?

That really is the key, isn't it. Unless you wake people up to think about it, they don't realize the medias bias by their silence.

[Wild Cobra]

You asked for coverage. That's coverage.

Hasn't similar coverage in the past, during the last administration, always eluded to it being the president's fault?

[ElNono]

Sorry, I can't help it. I think your insane form of attacks rubbed off on me. I think you deserve the same stupid line of attacks you do to me. Don't you?

Hasn't similar coverage in the past, during the last administration, always eluded to it being the president's fault?

This sentence doesn't make sense at all. Unless you mean 'coverup' where it says 'coverage' and 'alluded' where it says 'eluded'.

Which still doesn't make sense because Yoni was asking about media coverage, of which there's plenty, as I pointed out.

[ChumpDumper]

lol eluded

[Wild Cobra]

yoni's best defense of Bush is that he was a complete idiot and thousands of Americans died because his stupidity.

Believe as you wish. I saw a different picture when I was in was at a Net Control Station in the Nuclear Theater during Desert Storm.

If Saddam had complied with the UN resolution of the time, we would have left him alone.

[ChumpDumper]

Believe as you wish. I saw a different picture when I was in was at a Net Control Station in the Nuclear Theater during Desert Storm.

You changed parts.

[Wild Cobra]

This sentence doesn't make sense at all. Unless you mean 'coverup' where it says 'coverage' and 'alluded' where it says 'eluded'.

Which still doesn't make sense because Yoni was asking about media coverage, of which there's plenty, as I pointed out.

I'm sorry if you don't understand this form of media bias. That's your lack of awareness/competence. not mine, and I'm too ing drunk right now to try to elaborate.

[ElNono]

I'm sorry if you don't understand this form of media bias. That's your lack of awareness/competence. not mine, and I'm too ing drunk right now to try to elaborate.

What do you think the media is really hiding?

lol perennially drunk

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sorry if you don't understand this form of media bias. That's your lack of awareness/competence. not mine, and I'm too ing drunk right now to try to elaborate.

That and you can't put together a coherent sentence.