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I rest my case... the only comparison between LeBron's Cavs and Jordan's Bulls is the litany of teams Jordan lost in the playoffs with before Pippen showed up....
dirk is definitely top 15, fkla is an idiot who thinks that boris diaw is better than david lee
What do all the great ones have in common except Kobe? They were all highly efficient (for their eras. In the early years 40% from the field was considered good)
MJ-50%
Bird-50%
Magic-52%
Wilt-54%
Shaq-58%
Duncan-51%
Hakeem-51%
Kareem-56%
Oscar-49%
Moses-49%
Lebron-49%
Kobe-45%
Bryant isn't a top ten player all-time, imho. It most definitely isn't a lock like most say.
Most greats have won Finals MVP + regular season MVP in the same season, that's the biggest difference, tbh..it's a necessity for the elite..
LeBron has easily been the best player in the league every single season since 06-07, and in 04-05 and 05-06 he was top 4 at worst. His le last season easily pushes him into the top 10 right now, and he still has probably 4 more prime-level seasons after this one. I'd be shocked if he didn't retire as the undisputed greatest forward to ever play the game.
How soon have you forgotten:Hakeem isn't the tenth best player of all time. First of all, he missed the playffs in his prime. Secondly, he didn't learn to pass until he was like 30. Before that he was basically a smarter Amare Stoudemire with better knees. Third of all, outside of his peak years that last 2-3 seasons, he wasn't THAT good. LeBron > Hakeem, already.
I'm sure the Admiral hasn't.
These lists are impossible to please everyone, so I'll only name the Top 2--which are in- ing-disputable--if you have a brain. 1. Michael Jordan. 2. Magic Johnson. Fill the rest out as you please.
This. I'm glad others have figured out that this is the biggest accolade one can get in the NBA. The fact Kobe doesn't have it shows why he's not top 10.
Kobe is the exemption. He has back to back Finals MVP's and a Regular Season MVP to boot. He has those hardware.
Also, Lebron has more Finals losses (Both horrible performances) than Wins at this point of his career, I'm not sure how you guys overlooked that.
The "finals losses" argument is re ed. Making the finals and losing is better than what 28 other teams did. The fact he made the finals with his team in 2007 is an accolade in and of itself.
Kobe also isn't the exemption. Winning finals MVP and MVP in the same year is much harder than anything else. It means that in addition to winning a championship your team depended on you enough to win regular season MVP. The reason it rarely ever happens is because the winner of regular season MVP is usually on a team too one dimensional and dependent on him to win a championship.
The 2009 and 2010 Lakers presented matchup problems because of their front court, not because of Kobe. The trio of Bynum, Gasol, Odom is what won those two championships.
The only reason Larry Bird is considered a top 5 NBA player is because he's a honky. He was the bait and hook to get the rest of the honkies in America to watch a black sport. It's laughable, even nowadays, people still consider this clown a top 10 player, let alone a top 5.
No, its not for that reason. He was as good as Magic or MJ. If you consider them top 10, Bird is there too.
The not winning Finals MVP and Regular season argument at the same year is equally re ed. Fact is Kobe won those awards while 28 of the best players of each team were at home watching him hoist those trophies.
Regular season is a media driven award. You shouldn't put much merit to this award. Winning Back to Back Finals MVP is actually quite harder. IN this list, all of them have won back to back Finals MVP. Guess who hasn't won both?
Bynum didn't even play in those series. GTFO here lol.
I don't even have a horse in this race. I don't even like both Lebron and Kobe but some of the logic here is just comical
The problem with your logic is that you can cherry-pick stats/accolades and there will be a limited number of legends that fit the criteria..
However, regarding Finals MVP + MVP in the same season, EVERY true great has accomplished this feat, except Kobe..not just a few, but EVERY player that appears on most top 10 lists nowadays..
Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell and Wilt(if the award had existed), Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and Lebron have all done it..why does Kobe get a pass?..
So you're admitting it's a re ed argument. Glad we cleared that up.The not winning Finals MVP and Regular season argument at the same year is equally re ed. Fact is Kobe won those awards while 28 of the best players of each team were at home watching him hoist those trophies.
Kobe also missed the playoffs and got knocked out of the first round twice during his prime, the last time Lebron didn't make it past the 1st round was his 2nd season in the NBA.
Winning back to back finals MVPs is just as much about being on a stacked team as it is being a great player. Winning regular season MVP and finals MVP in the same year requires being a great player (look at the list of people who have done it).Regular season is a media driven award. You shouldn't put much merit to this award. Winning Back to Back Finals MVP is actually quite harder. IN this list, all of them have won back to back Finals MVP. Guess who hasn't won both?
Now you're revising history. Bynum didn't even play in those series?
2009 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...906040LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...906070LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...906090ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...906110ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...906140ORL.html
2010 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...006030LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...006060LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...006080BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...006100BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...006130BOS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...006150LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...006170LAL.html
Bynum played in every game in both series. Keep making stuff up.
(here comes the part where you move the goal posts and say, "I meant he didn't play figuratively!")
Yeah, revisionist history like, "Bynum didn't even play in those series!" is great logic.I don't even have a horse in this race. I don't even like both Lebron and Kobe but some of the logic here is just comical
Kobe missing the playoffs once in his 17 career has no weight in this argument tbh. That's just grasping straws bud. Its like using Lebron's failure to elevate the Cavaliers in the post season (who were heavily favored to win the East with the best record in the league) only to lose against a lower seed. Its moot.
Lol. All NBA Finals MVP played on a stack team, with the exception of Houston in 93-04. Again, I think winningback to back FMVP's has more weight than winning a Regular Season and Finals MVP once in his career. Jury is out this year if Lebron can bring a stack team of his own and will them to a championship. Otherwise, he'll be viewed as the guy who took advantage of a weak Eastern Conference and had that one magical season, like Olajuwon.
It was a tongue in cheek comment. Bynum was about as useful as Larry Hughes in the NBA Finals is all I'm saying. You're probably better off using Fisher instead of Bynum to defend your argument.
Kobe gets a pass because of his unique situation. MVP is a popularity award and Kobe is quite possibly the most hated figure in this era so its no surprise he only has one in his career.
Again, all those players except Wilt have experienced the same success. Which is to win back to back champions and win the series MVP on these series. Add Kobe to that list and its easy to see why he belongs there.
I've said countless times Lebron's performance against the Celtics in 2010 is right next to his performance against Dallas in 2011 as the biggest stains on his resume.
The 2005-2007 Lakers totally have weight in this argument. That was a 3 year stretch of Kobe's career where his team was all but irrelevant.
Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, KAJ, and Wilt Chamberlain never won back to back finals MVP. Does that make Kobe better than them (not rhetorical, serious question)? It's an award that's based largely off factors not having to do with the individual. Winning regular season MVP and finals MVP in the same year is something all of the greats have done that's more a testament to individual greatness than it is team greatness.
Looks like I called the, "I said it figuratively!" goal post move.
You decided to harp on Bynum (and revise history) because you had no way of responding to the fact that the biggest matchup problem the 2009 and 2010 Lakers posed wasn't Kobe by any stretch of the imagination, it was their front court. The strength of the 2009-2010 Lakers was having a huge advantage up front. Yes, Kobe was the best individual player, but the trio of Bynum Gasol and Odom gave Kobe the same dominant front court he had with Shaq from 2000-2002.
Kobe is one of the most media-protected players in NBA history..he has a cult-like following..
Every time he's the "exception" to a rule or an argument, which happens quite often, his fans claim he's hated and there is a bias against him
Kobe is one of the most media-protected players in NBA history..he has a cult-like following..
Every time he's the "exception" to a rule or an argument, which happens quite often, his fans claim he's hated and there is a bias against him
Dont' know about media-protected. Almost every news outlet criticizes him ever since the Colorado incident and Phil Jackson's book.
Now, protected by his fans? Then yeah, no argument there. But I've never seen him protected by the media. The ratio is against him. For every 1 good article, he'll have 4 that completely puts him down. Heck, almost every LA sports journalist have nothing good to say about him (TJ Simmers, Adande etc)
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