Spurs: Duncan really hasnt had that many "great" games relative to other greats...

[100%duncan]

Duncan doesn't need any excuse, tbh. He won 4 tles as the best player of his team.

This tbh. And suns fan has nary room.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm just using your "big game" definition..

There are certainly many cir stances and variables that play a role in these results, including games played, but the same can be said about basing your entire argument on data generated from meaningless regular season games..

If you actually have the balls to expand your argument further than simply using "big games results", and actually compare their careers and peak outputs(which it appears you are now doing, since you've begun to reference supporting casts, etc in one of your recent posts), I'll easily make arguments for Duncan as a playoff performer that will all over Barkley, Malone, KG and whoever you want to argue for, tbh..

[midnightpulp]

On the contrary. Filtering for playoffs (which you did) dramatically skews results because different teams go farther and thus have more games and thus more opportunities to have "big games". I give Duncan credit for playing "big" in the playoffs but all those other guys played big in the playoffs AND the regular season. Charles Barkley played on some horrible 76er teams in his prime that didnt even make the playoffs...does that mean hes not as good as Duncan who played with David Robinson, Ginobili and Tony Parker?


Taking your query (20 pts, 20 rebounds and 5 assists) without the "playoff" filter produces the following results:



btw - Do you have any idea what the word "random" means? I only ask because you claim my analysis was based off "random, arbitrary numbers". I dont think you know what either "random" or "arbitrary" actually mean.

Points, rebounds, blocks, assists etc arent "random or arbitrary". And I challenge you to find a criteria set that includes the regular season in which Duncan breaks the top two.

If Duncan is "the greatest PF", shouldnt that include regular season AND playoffs?

Reaching.

Duncan, whether he's a PF or a Center, is a better basketball player than that fat no defense playing midget big man Barkley ever was. As a DoK once said, "Barkley would struggle in the modern era at the PF position with all the long, post oriented PF's that have come into the league the past decade. The PF position has dramatically changed since the 80's and 90's. PFs got out more on the break in those days (Worthy, Barkley, Malone, Tom Chambers, etc) and with the high pace of the 80's/early 90's, they would naturally have more impressive "on paper" games. It's incredible how the majority of Duncan haters/Kobe fans etc don't understand that simple concept. Higher pace=bigger games. In the Spurs' championship years, they played a "grit-and-grind" style, often scoring in the 80s and low 90s. See any 20 ppg scores on Memphis this year? Know why?

You also neglect the different roles Duncan played vs. Malone/Barkley. Up until about '07, Duncan was basically the Spurs' point guard, setting up the offense, and getting teammates involved. He didn't have the luxury of playing with a PG like Stockton or Kevin Johnson, two great passing PGs who got those two countless easy dunks/layups. I think Bill Simmons said that if Duncan played with an All Star level pass first type PG, you could easily add 4-6 points to his career average. I'm a fan of stats, PER etc, but any player vs. player argument that doesn't take into consideration the respective systems each player in is weak at best.

Furthermore, in your comprehensive "analysis," you completely ignore the other side of the ball. Duncan is in another universe defensively compare to those stat s.

[DMC]

On the contrary. Filtering for playoffs (which you did) dramatically skews results because different teams go farther and thus THE NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED IS DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. I give Duncan credit for a couple of "big" games the playoffs but all those other guys played big in the playoffs AND the regular season. Charles Barkley played on some horrible 76er teams in his prime that didnt even make the playoffs...does that mean hes not as good as Duncan who played with David Robinson, Ginobili and Tony Parker?


Taking your query (20 pts, 20 rebounds and 5 assists) without the "playoff" filter produces the following results:



btw - Do you have any idea what the word "random" means? I only ask because you claim my analysis was based off "random, arbitrary numbers". I dont think you know what either "random" or "arbitrary" actually mean.

Points, rebounds, blocks, assists etc arent "random or arbitrary". And I challenge you to find a criteria set that includes the regular season in which Duncan breaks the top two.

If Duncan is "the greatest PF", shouldnt that include regular season AND playoffs?

Stupid got, there's no "big games" outside of the playoffs and Finals.

[midnightpulp]

In 15 years, DSF will make an argument that Kevin Love was better than Kevin Garnett because he had 'bigger regular season" games.

[spurraider21]

This thread is based on random, arbitrary numbers in the regular season? that seems pointless, tbh..

Using the same criteria in the playoffs, Duncan ranks 6th in 40 points-10 rebounds games..

30-10 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 42
Malone: 40
Olajuwon: 37
Duncan: 35
Barkley: 22

Duncan is 4th on the list, way ahead of 5th and close to 2nd..

30-20 games in the playoffs
Shaq: 10
Barkley: 7
Duncan: 4
Malone: 3
Garnett: 3
Olajuwon: 3

Duncan is 3rd on the list..

30-10 and 3 blocks(since 2 blocks isn't an impressive number, not sure why OP decided to use it
Olajuwon: 25
Shaq: 20
Duncan: 18

Duncan is 3rd, nobody else is close to these 3..

Now, let's choose our own arbitrary, impressive numbers, based on OP's base arguments..

30-20 and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3
Shaq: 2
Olajuwon: 2

Duncan is #1 on this list..

Let's factor assists into the equation to display Timmy's versatility..

20-10 and 5 assists
Lebron: 31
Duncan: 27
Barkley: 25
Malone: 25
Olajuwon: 24
Shaq: 22

Duncan is 2nd to Lebron in this category..

20-20 with 5 assists
Duncan: 7
Barkley: 5
Shaq: 4
Garnett: 3

Duncan is 1st in this category..

20-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Olajuwon: 9
Duncan: 8
Shaq: 3
Robinson 3

Duncan is 2nd, barely behind Hakeem..nobody else is close..

20-20 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 3

Nobody else has done it more than once..

30-10 with 5 assists and 5 blocks
Duncan: 2

No other player has done it more than once, what a beast-ass , tbh..

These are just the numbers, ignoring pace, too, which is usually a disadvantage for Tim's blocks and rebounds numbers..factoring in credible advanced metrics, Duncan is at or near the top in most numbers, tbh..also, Hakeem is the only superior defensive player on any of these lists..

Any defensive metric will show that Duncan is at worst, a top 3 defender of this generation(only Garnett and Ben Wallace are on the same level)..obviously this isn't the case for Shaq, Malone, Barkley or anybody on these lists outside of Hakeem..


Some random Tim Duncan playoffs(since that's all that matters) facts with heavier weight/more substance, tbh:

- Duncan joins Lebron James, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird as the only players in the modern era to lead a team to a le while leading their team in playoffs PPG, RPG and APG..if you include BPG as well, only Duncan and Hakeem remain..

- Duncan in 2003 joins 1994 Olajuwon as the only stars in NBA history to win an NBA le with their 2nd option averaging less than 15 PPG in the playoffs..

- Duncan in 2003 had only 1 teammate with an above average PER, which has never been replicated in the modern era IIRC..


Personally, I agree that prime Shaq is better than Duncan, he's probably the most dominant player I've ever seen, maybe in the history of the NBA, tbh..Duncan's longevity has surpassed him, and there's no question that he's a superior teammate, though..

Other than Shaq, Duncan is the best playoff performer of his generation, and one of the best in history, and it isn't arguable, tbh..

one of the GOAT posts i've seen on this forum

but one thing that always bothers me is the "shaq most dominant of all time" thing when Wilt averaged 50 and 25

then they say "Wilt played against nobody's", to which I look at the Centers shaq went up against in his prime (im assuming 2000-2002). he went up against old, way past his prime robinson, old past his prime Divac, old past his prime sabonis, old past his prime dikembe, tod mcallugh (or however the you spell it), and old past his prime rik smits

[HarlemHeat37]

Check out his arguments in the all-NBA teams thread, tbh..

This uses ty advanced stats that he just discovered and parrots takes from the stubborn WoW/NBA geek contributors, tbh..

He uses the same numbers that claim the Lakers role players were more important than Kobe/Shaq in 2001..

[midnightpulp]

More on the point of pace:

The Barkley era Suns averaged over 110 points a game compared to the Duncan-era champion year Spurs teams who averaged around 90.

Of course he's gonna have "bigger" games, you monkey.

[DMC]

Pretty sure he's a troll. No one is that stupid except Mouse maybe.

[da_suns_fan]

Reaching.

Duncan, whether he's a PF or a Center, is a better basketball player than that fat no defense playing midget big man Barkley ever was. As a DoK once said, "Barkley would struggle in the modern era at the PF position with all the long, post oriented PF's that have come into the league the past decade. The PF position has dramatically changed since the 80's and 90's. PFs got out more on the break in those days (Worthy, Barkley, Malone, Tom Chambers, etc) and with the high pace of the 80's/early 90's, they would naturally have more impressive "on paper" games. It's incredible how the majority of Duncan haters/Kobe fans etc don't understand that simple concept. Higher pace=bigger games. In the Spurs' championship years, they played a "grit-and-grind" style, often scoring in the 80s and low 90s. See any 20 ppg scores on Memphis this year? Know why?

You also neglect the different roles Duncan played vs. Malone/Barkley. Up until about '07, Duncan was basically the Spurs' point guard, setting up the offense, and getting teammates involved. He didn't have the luxury of playing with a PG like Stockton or Kevin Johnson, two great passing PGs who got those two countless easy dunks/layups. I think Bill Simmons said that if Duncan played with an All Star level pass first type PG, you could easily add 4-6 points to his career average. I'm a fan of stats, PER etc, but any player vs. player argument that doesn't take into consideration the respective systems each player in is weak at best.

Furthermore, in your comprehensive "analysis," you completely ignore the other side of the ball. Duncan is in another universe defensively compare to those stat s.

Theres so much fail in this post.

Barkley played with Kevin Johnson for four seasons. I dont think KJ contributed to his tremendous rebounding either. What "great PG" did Shaq play with?

Likewise, both KG and Barkley's respective assist numbers blow Duncan out of the water.

I understand that stats dont accurately measure defense, but the fact is that Duncan really doesnt compare to other "big four" in terms of games with high points, rebounds etc.

[da_suns_fan]

More on the point of pace:

The Barkley era Suns averaged over 110 points a game compared to the Duncan-era champion year Spurs teams who averaged around 90.

Of course he's gonna have "bigger" games, you monkey.

Once again, Barkley played for the Suns for four of his 16 seasons. Most of his big games came as a sixer.

And once again, Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq and Malone dont need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

The fact is that he wasnt very "extraordinary". His "big games" were very few and far between.

[DMC]

Theres so much fail in this post.

Barkley played with Kevin Johnson for four seasons. I dont think KJ contributed to his tremendous rebounding either. What "great PG" did Shaq play with?

Likewise, both KG and Barkley's respective assist numbers blow Duncan out of the water.

I understand that stats dont accurately measure defense, but the fact is that Duncan really doesnt compare to other "big four" in terms of games with high points, rebounds etc.

Let's see.. hmmm... Someone named Penny.

[Brunodf]

Don't feed the troll. Barkley was the David Lee of his era.
Good looking numbers/poor D/ playoff runs

[da_suns_fan]

I'm just using your "big game" definition..

There are certainly many cir stances and variables that play a role in these results, including games played, but the same can be said about basing your entire argument on data generated from meaningless regular season games..

If you actually have the balls to expand your argument further than simply using "big games results", and actually compare their careers and peak outputs(which it appears you are now doing, since you've begun to reference supporting casts, etc in one of your recent posts), I'll easily make arguments for Duncan as a playoff performer that will all over Barkley, Malone, KG and whoever you want to argue for, tbh..

Except your queries just really prove the opposite when you factor in number of playoff games played.

How does Barkley have more 30/20 games than Duncan even though he played in SEVENTY (70..no typo) less playoff games?

[da_suns_fan]

Let's see.. hmmm... Someone named Penny.

So Shaq blows Duncan out of the water in every single category because of the THREE seasons (out of 21 year career) he played with Penny Hardaway yet Duncan's played with Tony Parker for 10+ seasons?

You seriously SUCK at this.

[DMC]

Once again, Barkley played for the Suns for four of his 16 seasons. Most of his big games came as a sixer.

And once again, Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq and Malone dont need the excuses that Spurs fans give Duncan.

The fact is that he wasnt very "extraordinary". His "big games" were very few and far between.

The big question is: Did Kobe Bryant's 35 field-goal attempts lead to the Lakers loss? Bryant hit 20 out of 35 attempts, so it is hard to argue that he is hurting the team with bad shots, but the Lakers become disinterested on both ends of the floor when they don't get looks from Bryant. The Suns should be prepared for the Lakers to focus on scoring in the paint in Game 7, but if the Lakers turn the ball over in the paint the way they did in Game 6 the Suns could be the first team to beat Phil Jackson in a series he has led. Jackson right now is 44-0.

[DMC]

So Shaq blows Duncan out of the water in every single category because of the THREE seasons (out of 21 year career) he played with Penny Hardaway yet Duncan's played with Tony Parker for 10+ seasons?

You seriously SUCK at this.

No, because Shaq was one of the most dominant big men to ever play the game.

You asked which PGs he played with. There's your answer. Someone got him the ball, he wasn't bringing it up himself.

[DMC]

Except your queries just really prove the opposite when you factor in number of playoff games played.

How does Barkley have more 30/20 games than Duncan even though he played in SEVENTY (70..no typo) less playoff games?

Ask Charles. He says Tim is the best PF to ever play.

[midnightpulp]

Theres so much fail in this post.

Barkley played with Kevin Johnson for four seasons. I dont think KJ contributed to his tremendous rebounding either. What "great PG" did Shaq play with?

Likewise, both KG and Barkley's respective assist numbers blow Duncan out of the water.

I understand that stats dont accurately measure defense, but the fact is that Duncan really doesnt compare to other "big four" in terms of games with high points, rebounds etc.

We're not comparing Duncan with Shaq here. Our focus in on Barkley/Malone vs. Duncan. Shaq was a more dominant scorer than Duncan. That goes without saying.

Barkley played with Mo Cheeks in Philly for 5/6 seasons. But Barkley's big games in that era relative to modern day compe ion can be more explained by the high pace and terrible defense played in the 80's. Barkley's Sixer teams averaged about 108-110 points a game. I'm not saying Barkley would flounder in a down tempo system, but he'd have much less 30-15, 25-20 games etc.

Everyone had bloated stats in the 80's, which is why it's beyond re ed to compare those players to today's with raw stats, something as an advanced stat fan you should understand.

[da_suns_fan]

No, because Shaq was one of the most dominant big men to ever play the game.

You asked which PGs he played with. There's your answer. Someone got him the ball, he wasn't bringing it up himself.

Tony Parker doesnt bring up the ball?

[DMC]

Tony Parker doesnt bring up the ball?

And? You asked, dumbass. You didn't count on Penny did ya/

[midnightpulp]

Elgin Baylor had more "big games" than Lebron, thus he's a better player.

- DSF's re logic.

[HarlemHeat37]

- Barkley's teams averaged approximately 10 possessions more per 100 than Duncan's teams, a massive disparity..a larger disparity than this year's #1 vs. #30 in pace..

- Duncan exerts an equal amount (or probably even more) of energy on the defensive end as he does offensively..Barkley played no defense(as he frequently admits) and had very little defensive responsibility..

I can only imagine the type of damage Duncan could do if he didn't have to anchor a perennially elite defense.. , even this year, at age 36-37, Duncan's defensive numbers are elite on a top 5 defense, and the Spurs defense goes downhill when he's off the floor..

I've always thought it was unfair to compare players like Duncan and Hakeem to players that have virtually no defensive responsibility, tbh..

- Duncan has more big playoff games than Barkley, using your original criteria..you didn't factor variables and cir stance to your original argument, you simply listed raw data totals, I did the same, tbh..

If you want to argue that Barkley is a better regular season big game player than Duncan, I won't argue, I don't really care, tbh..

[da_suns_fan]

We're not comparing Duncan with Shaq here. Our focus in on Barkley/Malone vs. Duncan. Shaq was a more dominant scorer than Duncan. That goes without saying.

Barkley played with Mo Cheeks in Philly for 5/6 seasons. But Barkley's big games in that era relative to modern day compe ion can be more explained by the high pace and terrible defense played in the 80's. Barkley's Sixer teams averaged about 108-110 points a game. I'm not saying Barkley would flounder in a down tempo system, but he'd have much less 30-15, 25-20 games etc.

Everyone had bloated stats in the 80's, which is why it's beyond re ed to compare those players to today's with raw stats, something as an advanced stat fan you should understand.

I reject the narrative that Duncan shouldnt be compared to Shaq when they played in the same era and produced the same type of stats (points, rebounds, blocks etc).

I reject the narrative that Duncan's numbers shouldnt count because he didnt play with a great point guard (poor Tony Parker) and Barkley did (Mo who?).

I understand that a slower pace will lead to less rebounds/scoring opportunities, but the fact still remains that Duncan had DRAMATICALLY less big games than the other four. If you want to attribute that to "pace", so be it. But Shaq didnt need that excuse and he played in the same era.

[midnightpulp]

- Barkley's teams averaged approximately 10 possessions more per 100 than Duncan's teams, a massive disparity..a larger disparity than this year's #1 vs. #30 in pace..

- Duncan exerts an equal amount (or probably even more) of energy on the defensive end as he does offensively..Barkley played no defense and had very little defensive responsibility..

I can only imagine the type of damage Duncan could do if he didn't have to anchor a perennially elite defense.. , even this year, at age 36-37, Duncan's defensive numbers are elite and the Spurs defense goes downhill when he's off the floor..

I've always thought it was unfair to compare players like Duncan and Hakeem to players that have virtually no defensive responsibility, tbh..

Barkley/Malone fans seem to never grasp this point.

Kevin Love will likely finish with many more "big games" than KG. But only an idiot would say Kevin Love is anywhere near the level of player KG is/was. That goes for David Lee, too. He'll probably finish with 20 times more "big games" than someone like Marc Gasol (yeah, I know Gasol is overrated, as you've discussed), but considering Gasol's responsibility and defensive presence, he's a better player than Lee.