Page 64 of 113 FirstFirst ... 145460616263646566676874 ... LastLast
Results 1,576 to 1,600 of 2823
  1. #1576
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,886
    Just out of curiosity did you read the case law I presented. Do you still disagree that the prosecution has the burden of proof to disprove self-defense?
    I did and did you see the link that I had where other than the one statute that you are citing that there are two other laws that have been applied to the case.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06...-self-defense/

  2. #1577
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,886
    I am not sure I understand your question. I think you give way to much weight to the dispatcher's comment. Whether it was an instruction, recommendation, order or suggesstion does not matter. Zimmerman was not breaking a law and to the best of our knowledge, had lost sight of Martin at the point where the dispatcher told him that "we don't need you to follow him", at least he indicates as much in his call.

    Next, you are incorrectly assuming that Martin ran away. I could just as logically conclude from the evidence presented that Martin was hiding with the intent to assault Zimmerman. Martin had plenty of time to run to his house. It could reasonably be argued that this would be what most reasonable people would do in a similar cir stance. If you cannot now prove that Martin did not assault Zimmerman, then I don't see have you have met your burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self defense.

    One more point from your comment, you note that Zimmerman did not witness Martin commit a criminal act or perform criminal activity. If he had, would he have been justified in then following Martin? The reason I bring this up is because you are falling for exactly what the prosecution is trying to sell: that hindsight should be sufficient to convict Zimmerman. The prosecution has to prove two things which they have woefully failed to do and that is show the elements of 2nd degree murder (and now manslaughter) and that Zimmerman had no cause for self-defense as defined by Florida law. Because they cannot prove the elements, they try to confuse the jury with witness statements that testified without any certainty as to what they saw and irrelevant information such as the purchase of ice tea and skittles.

    Lets presume for a second that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, went after him with the intent to kill him, had his gun drawn and everything, Martin then jumps out of nowhere knocking Zimmerman down and the proceeds to beat the out of him to the point that a reasonable person would conclude (subjective conclusion) that their life is in danger or they could suffer serious bodily injury. Would his claim of self-defense then be justified? My point is that what really matters in this case, and I am focusing on Self-Defense not the second degree charge, is to forget all the irrelvant facts of how good or bad Zimmerman and Martin are. Can you reasonably believe that Zimmerman felt his life was ever in danager or he was about to suffer serious bodliy harm. If you cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not feel either of these two things during their confrontation, self-defense has been met.

    Finally, I disagree with your facts. You say that after the dispatcher told him that "we don't need you to follow him" that Zimmerman continues to do it anyway. I hear Zimmerman say "okay" ant then proceed to tell the dispatcher that Martin got away and where to have the cops meet him. I take it as Zimmerman had stopped following Martin and was returning to his car. Its not the defense's burden to prove it, can the prosecution prove that Zimmerman continue the pursuit?
    Zimmerman said that Martin ran away after approaching his car and that was why he was following him. Pay attention.

    And gmfb. Hindsight? This is a case about what happened in the past. He chased after a kid that was trying to get away from him for no good reason. Perhaps you should reread the self defense statute about who created the confrontation and how that invalidates the defense.

    And this notion that Martin jumped out of the bushes and knocked him down and beat his head in the ground then went for his gun and said "you are going to die" is such contrived bull that is contrary to the evidence.

    He knew that if he got out of the car to chase him he invalidated his defense. Surprise surprise. He was looking for a street sign that wasn' t there in a neighborhood of three streets that he was calling out streetnames for the dispatcher.

    He knew that if he started talking that it would invalidated his defense. Surprise surprise. Martin jumped out of the bushes.

    He knew that he had to feel in imminent severe danger. Surprise surprise. He was beat in the head so much that it caused a single laceration and no DNA and Martin conveniently told him he was going to kill him right before he shot him.

    Zimmerman is a known liar and this story is so full fo I cannot see how anyone would believe it.

  3. #1578
    Kang Trill Clinton's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Post Count
    20,741
    so if a kid sees he is being followed in the still of the night and decides to defend himself by "sucker punching" the coward, the kid deserves to die? well dayum. win for the cowards.

  4. #1579
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Post Count
    2,031
    I did and did you see the link that I had where other than the one statute that you are citing that there are two other laws that have been applied to the case.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06...-self-defense/
    I did. And it confirms what I said, the state still has the burden of proof. From your link:

    And in order for Zimmerman to obtain a self-defense jury instruction, he needs only present a modi of evidence (all of the above suffice – and IMHO cons ute a preponderance of evidence in favor of self-defense). The State will then bear the burden to disprove self-defense, beyond a reasonable doubt.

  5. #1580
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,886
    The defense through Zimmerman's account of what happened is claiming self defense. I think that are multiple reasons to very much so doubt that Zimmerman's case for self defense is anything but a bunch of lies.

    If you doubt Zimmerman's story then you doubt his basis for a claim of self defense.

    I do.

  6. #1581
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Post Count
    2,031
    so if a kid sees he is being followed in the still of the night and decides to defend himself by "sucker punching" the coward, the kid deserves to die? well dayum. win for the cowards.
    Does not deserve to die. But in Florida, the shooter might have a legitimate self defense claim.

  7. #1582
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Post Count
    2,031
    Zimmerman said that Martin ran away after approaching his car and that was why he was following him. Pay attention.

    And gmfb. Hindsight? This is a case about what happened in the past. He chased after a kid that was trying to get away from him for no good reason. Perhaps you should reread the self defense statute about who created the confrontation and how that invalidates the defense.

    And this notion that Martin jumped out of the bushes and knocked him down and beat his head in the ground then went for his gun and said "you are going to die" is such contrived bull that is contrary to the evidence.

    He knew that if he got out of the car to chase him he invalidated his defense. Surprise surprise. He was looking for a street sign that wasn' t there in a neighborhood of three streets that he was calling out streetnames for the dispatcher.

    He knew that if he started talking that it would invalidated his defense. Surprise surprise. Martin jumped out of the bushes.

    He knew that he had to feel in imminent severe danger. Surprise surprise. He was beat in the head so much that it caused a single laceration and no DNA and Martin conveniently told him he was going to kill him right before he shot him.

    Zimmerman is a known liar and this story is so full fo I cannot see how anyone would believe it.
    You who claim to want analysis give none yourself. You make a series of conclusive statements and move on. You have accepted the facts that you want to believe. You are just as guilty as those you claim a high ground over.

  8. #1583
    Mr Robinsons hood denizen Creepn's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Post Count
    4,965
    so if a kid sees he is being followed in the still of the night and decides to defend himself by "sucker punching" the coward, the kid deserves to die? well dayum. win for the cowards.
    Who's that woman in your avi?

  9. #1584
    License to Lillard tlongII's Avatar
    My Team
    Portland Trail Blazers
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Post Count
    28,727
    This case is not about whether or not Martin deserved to die. Obviously he didn't. This case is about whether or not Zimmerman should be convicted of Murder 2 or Manslaughter. Given the evidence and testimony presented at trial I think it's obvious that under Florida law he shouldn't be convicted.

  10. #1585
    Kang Trill Clinton's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Post Count
    20,741
    Does not deserve to die. But in Florida, the shooter might have a legitimate self defense claim.
    yea i know that, its a bull law that needs to be changed. if not, more innocent kids will die unfairly for defending themselves against creeps.

  11. #1586
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Post Count
    2,031
    The defense through Zimmerman's account of what happened is claiming self defense. I think that are multiple reasons to very much so doubt that Zimmerman's case for self defense is anything but a bunch of lies.

    If you doubt Zimmerman's story then you doubt his basis for a claim of self defense.

    I do.
    Actually you are completely wrong. The defense did not present Zimmerman's account of self-defense, the defense took the prosecutors evidence and turned it on its face to prove self-defense. In presenting their defense, they then took expert witnesses to further support what they showed using the state's witnesses.

    On what factual basis do you conclude that Zimmerman initiated the contact? Not the total conflict, the actual contact.

    Do you doubt that Martin punched Zimmerman in the face?

    Do you doubt that Martin ever mounted Zimmerman and caused any injury to Zimmerman, any injury at all to the back of his head?

    If you have a broken nose that resulted from being punched in the face and then whoever punched you mounts you and continues to attack, does this put you in a state of fear of imminent bodily harm?

  12. #1587
    Kang Trill Clinton's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Post Count
    20,741
    Who's that woman in your avi?

    some sexy sista i found on tumblr. i love natural haired cuties.

  13. #1588
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Post Count
    2,031
    yea i know that, its a bull law that needs to be changed. if not, more innocent kids will die unfairly for defending themselves against creeps.
    I actually made a suggestion to a co-worker today that they adopt a Zimmerman exception and le it such. There should be an exception to the rule if you pursue an indivudal who you have not witnessed commit a crime while armed. Something to that effect.

  14. #1589
    Veteran jack sommerset's Avatar
    My Team
    Houston Rockets
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Post Count
    9,221
    If you go looking for trouble you are going to find it. God bless

  15. #1590
    Mr Robinsons hood denizen Creepn's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Post Count
    4,965
    If you go looking for trouble you are going to find it. God bless
    Who was looking for trouble?

  16. #1591
    Believe. AntiChrist's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Post Count
    1,369
    Zimmerman said that Martin ran away after approaching his car and that was why he was following him. Pay attention.

    And gmfb. Hindsight? This is a case about what happened in the past. He chased after a kid that was trying to get away from him for no good reason. Perhaps you should reread the self defense statute about who created the confrontation and how that invalidates the defense.

    And this notion that Martin jumped out of the bushes and knocked him down and beat his head in the ground then went for his gun and said "you are going to die" is such contrived bull that is contrary to the evidence.

    He knew that if he got out of the car to chase him he invalidated his defense. Surprise surprise. He was looking for a street sign that wasn' t there in a neighborhood of three streets that he was calling out streetnames for the dispatcher.

    He knew that if he started talking that it would invalidated his defense. Surprise surprise. Martin jumped out of the bushes.

    He knew that he had to feel in imminent severe danger. Surprise surprise. He was beat in the head so much that it caused a single laceration and no DNA and Martin conveniently told him he was going to kill him right before he shot him.

    Zimmerman is a known liar and this story is so full fo I cannot see how anyone would believe it.

    So, what are you suggesting there, FuzzyLump s? Are you suggesting his injuries are self-inflicted?

    lol @ "He knew that he had to feel in imminent severe danger": Do you really think he was spontaneously plotting all of this ? You are going full tin-foiler on us.

  17. #1592
    Believe. AntiChrist's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Post Count
    1,369
    You who claim to want analysis give none yourself. You make a series of conclusive statements and move on. You have accepted the facts that you want to believe. You are just as guilty as those you claim a high ground over.
    FuzzyLump s is a self-proclaimed expert on every subject.

  18. #1593
    Veteran jack sommerset's Avatar
    My Team
    Houston Rockets
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Post Count
    9,221
    I believe they both were. God bless

  19. #1594
    Kang Trill Clinton's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Post Count
    20,741
    I actually made a suggestion to a co-worker today that they adopt a Zimmerman exception and le it such. There should be an exception to the rule if you pursue an indivudal who you have not witnessed commit a crime while armed. Something to that effect.
    yea i agree. there should be evidence of just cause if you're following someone you suspect of committing a crime. otherwise kids all across america will be unjustly profiled and forced into a fight which could cost them their life. no kid deserves to be put in that position.

  20. #1595
    Believe. boobie4three's Avatar
    My Team
    Cleveland Cavaliers
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Post Count
    712
    yea i agree. there should be evidence of just cause if you're following someone you suspect of committing a crime. otherwise kids all across america will be unjustly profiled and forced into a fight which could cost them their life. no kid deserves to be put in that position.
    Nobody forced him into a fight. I think you clowns already know that Martin caused his own death, but for whatever reason you want to continue to spew your nonsense.

  21. #1596
    Kang Trill Clinton's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Post Count
    20,741
    Nobody forced him into a fight. I think you clowns already know that Martin caused his own death, but for whatever reason you want to continue to spew your nonsense.
    ummm everything was fine until the coward stranger decides to follow a kid. a teenager isn't going to think situations like that all the way through, doggie. he was in fear of his life because some stranger is following him at night. its very logical that would scare the average kid and they either run, which is what tray did or try to defend theirself, which tray did.

    he was placed in a situation that a reasonable person would realize requires judgment or actions beyond the child's level of maturity and was killed. keep believing the wife beater, his story doesn't add up and i aint buying it. you drink that kool aid, doggie. i don't want it.

  22. #1597
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,886
    You who claim to want analysis give none yourself. You make a series of conclusive statements and move on. You have accepted the facts that you want to believe. You are just as guilty as those you claim a high ground over.
    No I am restating Zimmerman statements and giving specific reasons why I don't believe them. I will be more dispassionate if that helps.

    We know that he deceived his lawyer and the court by not disclosing his donations in a discussion of his financial ability to make bail.

    It is by his own admission that he was following Martin and that he was told 'we don't you need to do that' by the police.

    Zimmerman claims that he was not on watch duty but instead going to the grocery store. He told his dispatcher that he saw him --giving specific streets speaking to the next point-- at a location that was on the far side of his house from the exit to the grocery store.

    Zimmerman claims that he got out of the car to look at streetsigns. That is incongruous to the previous statement. Further there was no street sign there. The altercation occurred 35 feet from the car and not in the direction a sign. Further he knew the other streets in the neighborhood as evidenced by him calling out the street names to the dispatcher.

    Zimmerman feared for his life because he was having his head beaten into the concrete. The ME said that the injuries were not consistent with that. No DNA was found on Martin to corroborate his account.


    If I am using your standard of a reasonable doubt requirement, I think there are multiple reasons to doubt the basis for Zimmerman's claim of self defense. He has a history of deceiving the court and the evidence and cir stances contradict his account of events. They are mutually exclusive.

  23. #1598
    Kang Trill Clinton's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Post Count
    20,741
    i rest my case until the verdict

  24. #1599
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,886
    FuzzyLump s is a self-proclaimed expert on every subject.
    No, I don't. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on Florida law. I for example believe that his standard of reasonable doubt once the account for self defense is presented is correct.

    Zimmerman's account is untenable and easy to create reasonable doubt for.

  25. #1600
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,886
    So, what are you suggesting there, FuzzyLump s? Are you suggesting his injuries are self-inflicted?

    lol @ "He knew that he had to feel in imminent severe danger": Do you really think he was spontaneously plotting all of this ? You are going full tin-foiler on us.
    No, I think that he got popped int he nose and fell down and hit his head. I do not believe for a moment when he says he was getting his head beat in. His injuries are not consistent with those types or that number of blows.

    He had the time to go from the scene to the station where he gave his statement. I do think it is completely contrived. The basis for that is not tin hat but instead physical evidence that I have presented that is mutually exclusive to his account. All you counter that is with your incredulity. That his account is so obviously full of just means he could have used mroe time.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •