Spurs Salaries, 2012-2013 Edition

[bluebellmaniac]

Yes, you are. CBA FAQ states (Q80): "Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required."

The second mistake you are making is not taking into account cap holds. As long as Ginobili and Splitter are not either resigned or renounced, they count for $19,1M and $7,5M against the cap, respectively. This is to prevent teams from signing other teams' free agents through cap space and then using the Larry Bird exception to re-sign their own ones as well.

You need to include the following sentence to Q80. It states that you can go over the salary cap and that it only requires a trade exception.

Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade. But if a team finishes more than $100,000 over the cap, whether they started out above or below the cap, then an exception is required. An exception is the mechanism that allows a team to make trades or sign players and finish over the salary cap. Since most teams are usually over the salary cap, trades are usually completed using exceptions.

The exceptions available for making trades are as follows:

• The Traded Player exception is the principal means through which most trades are made. It is described in question numbers 81, 82 and 83.

The type of trade is a Non-Simultaneous trade.

Q81 states:

The Traded Player exception is the primary means by which teams over the cap complete trades. It allows teams to make trades that leave them over the cap, but it places several restrictions on those trades.



From #83 of the CBA FAQ, we get: There are several common misconceptions about trade exceptions and non-simultaneous trades:

• Teams cannot use trade exceptions to sign free agents; they can be used only to acquire existing contracts from other teams. However, a team can acquire a free agent using a trade exception if he is signed by his prior team and traded in a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 89)

So Minny would sign and trade us AK47 prior to submitting the KMart contract. They would then have KMart and a valuable trade exception.


In looking at #14 to determine the team salary, a different calculation is done when doing a sign and trade. You compute the team salary differently. It says this about doing the team salary calculation:

They use a slightly different calculation for determining the team salary in relation to the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 25), and for Sign-and-Trade transactions (see question number 89). For these purposes they use the team salary as defined above, with the following modifications:

• All unlikely bonuses are included for contracts and extensions signed under the current CBA.
• Amounts that could be included in team salary as the result of certain grievances are included.
• For rookies and players with one year of experience whose salary is less than the two-year minimum salary, the two-year minimum salary is used in place of their actual salary.
• For the team's restricted free agents, the amount of any outstanding qualifying offer or first refusal exercise notice (both including unlikely bonuses), whichever is greater, are included. <-- This applies to Tiago. He counts for $7.5M
• The amount of any required tenders for the team's draft picks is included.
• Cap holds for free agents are excluded. <-- This applies to Manu. He does not count toward the team salary computation in a sign-and-trade.
• Cap holds for first round draft picks are excluded.
• Cap holds for the team's outstanding exceptions are excluded.

They do this because those exceptions and sign-and-trade transactions affect whether the team is subject to a hard cap (see question number 25), and these modifications to the team salary calculation ensure that subject teams remain below the apron.


So when you exclude Manu's cap hold and use $7.5M for Tiago, we can accept AK47 because that would still leave us under the salary cap. After we have AK47, then we sign Tiago and Manu, which then sets us above the salary cap, but below the tax apron. We can then use the NT MLE to sign Belinelli.

[Mel_13]

I'm going to say something in general and then address a specific part of your post.

Every year, well-meaning people think that they've discovered some loophole in the CBA that can be exploited. NBA teams pay big money to people to find every crack in the CBA. So ask yourself a question before you keep expending energy on this:

Why can't you point to a single past transaction that was executed using the theory you're proposing? (If teams could acquire big name FAs in S&Ts simply by delaying the resigning of their own FAs it would happen all the time.)

[*]Teams cannot use trade exceptions to sign free agents; they can be used only to acquire existing contracts from other teams. However, a team can acquire a free agent using a trade exception if he is signed by his prior team and traded in a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 89)[/LIST]

So Minny would sign and trade us AK47 prior to submitting the KMart contract. They would then have KMart and a valuable trade exception.

Now to the specific. Minny could trade AK47 to the Spurs for nothing if the Spurs already had a large enough trade exception (from some previous trade). The Spurs do not possess a large enough trade exception to accept AK47's salary. So they would have to first create enough cap space to accept his contract. That trade would generate a trade exception that Minny could use in future trade for up to one year after the initial trade.

Hope that's clear enough to help.

[Bruno]

When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.

Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.

In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:

Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X

Total: $51,961,616 +$X

If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.

[spursfan4ever]

When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.

Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.

In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:

Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X

Total: $51,961,616 +$X

If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.

What about the recent acquisition or agreeing of Marco Belinili cap hold?

[Bruno]

What about the recent acquisition or agreeing of Marco Belinili cap hold?

Belinelli hasn't been signed and can't be signed like most of the free agents before July 10th. In that scenario, he would be signed just after the Kirilenko S&T with the room exception.

[Mel_13]

What about the recent acquisition or agreeing of Marco Belinili cap hold?

In that scenario, Belinelli would be signed after the AK47 using the room exception.

[bluebellmaniac]

When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.

Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.

In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:

Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X

Total: $51,961,616 +$X

If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.

Thanks Bruno. Would the trade not be able to be worked as a Non-Simultaneous trade, thus creating a TE for Minny? So when calculating if the Spurs could receive him, wouldn't you exclude Manu's cap hold in that calculation since he is a free agent? That would push down the calculated team salary a significant amount.

If we have to include Manu's, wouldn't we also have to include Horry's as listed on Sham's page?

[spursfan4ever]

Belinelli hasn't been signed and can't be signed like most of the free agents before July 10th. In that scenario, he would be signed just after the Kirilenko S&T with the room exception.

Thanks guys for the clarification. That was the only question I had when reading your post.

[Bruno]

Thanks Bruno. Would the trade not be able to be worked as a Non-Simultaneous trade, thus creating a TE for Minny? So when calculating if the Spurs could receive him, wouldn't you exclude Manu's cap hold in that calculation since he is a free agent? That would push down the calculated team salary a significant amount.

If we have to include Manu's, wouldn't we also have to include Horry's as listed on Sham's page?

It would be a non-simultaneous trade For Minny but not for Spurs. For Spurs, it would be a trade made by a team bellow the cap and that must end within $100K of the cap after it and non-renounced free agents had to be include.

Before doing that trade, Spurs would need to renounce at all of their free agents except Tiago. Blair or Horry would be renounced. They would also need a letter from Jean-Charles stating he would stay in Europe for the full season to remove the cap hold associated with the 28th pick.

[bluebellmaniac]

Thanks Bruno!

[Seventyniner]

It would be a non-simultaneous trade For Minny but not for Spurs. For Spurs, it would be a trade made by a team bellow the cap and that must end within $100K of the cap after it and non-renounced free agents had to be include.

Before doing that trade, Spurs would need to renounce at all of their free agents except Tiago. Blair or Horry would be renounced. They would also need a letter from Jean-Charles stating he would stay in Europe for the full season to remove the cap hold associated with the 28th pick.

Instead of renouncing Manu, the Spurs could just sign him, right?

[Mel_13]

Instead of renouncing Manu, the Spurs could just sign him, right?

This hypothetical has gone around the block a few times, but I'm certain that it assumes that Manu would be signed at this point in the proceedings. Tiago would not be signed yet as his cap hold is lower than his new salary, thus creating the maximum possible cap space.

[coyotes_geek]

When Larry Coon said that free agents cap holds are excluded in "Sign-and-Trade transactions", they are excluded just to determine if a team can receive a player in a S&T. With the new CBA, a team that is a above the apron ($4M above the luxury tax level) can't receive a player in a S&T.

Free agents cap holds are not removed to match salaries during the S&T. S&T rules are exactly like trade rules. It's 150%+100K (not all the time but doesn't matter) or the team must be within $100k of the salary cap after the trade.

In Spurs case with Bonner amnestied, and empty AK47 S&T would let Spurs in the follwing situation:

Tony Parker: $12,500,000
Tim Duncan: $10,361,446
Boris Diaw: $4,702,500
Danny Green: $3,762,500
Nando De Colo: $1,463,000
Kawhi Leonard: $1,887,840
Patrick Mills: $1,133,950
Cory Joseph: $1,120,920
Aron Baynes: $788,872
Manu Ginobili: $6,746,988
Splitter's cap hold: $7,493,600
Kirilenko salary: $X

Total: $51,961,616 +$X

If you take a salary cap at $58.5M, Spurs should be at max at $58.6M which makes Kirlenkjo max possible salary at $6,638,384.

Shouldn't there be a cap hold for a roster charge in there? Once Bonner gets amnestied that drops the Spurs down to 11 players (10 under contract + Splitters cap hold). That would take $490,180 off of what they could start AK at.

[Bruno]

Shouldn't there be a cap hold for a roster charge in there? Once Bonner gets amnestied that drops the Spurs down to 11 players (10 under contract + Splitters cap hold). That would take $490,180 off of what they could start AK at.

I'm not 100% sure of that but it depends on if you get Kirilenko through a classic cap space signing or through an "empty" S&T.

If you just sign Kirilenko, there is a cap hold as you said. If you get him through a S&T, rule is that Spurs payroll should be below the cap+$100K after the trade so the cap hold disapear. This difference makes that Spurs could offer Kirilenko $6M through a classic signing and $6.6M through a S&T.

[Captivus]

[elemento]

I'm not 100% sure of that but it depends on if you get Kirilenko through a classic cap space signing or through an "empty" S&T.

If you just sign Kirilenko, there is a cap hold as you said. If you get him through a S&T, rule is that Spurs payroll should be below the cap+$100K after the trade so the cap hold disapear. This difference makes that Spurs could offer Kirilenko $6M through a classic signing and $6.6M through a S&T.

Bruno I got it from another forum

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...V0V1dnc&gid=29

Does it seem correct to you ?

[Bruno]

Bruno I got it from another forum

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...V0V1dnc&gid=29

Does it seem correct to you ?

For contract that have been agreed in the last few days (Ginobili, Splitter, Belinelli and Pendergraph), these are just estimate contracts. What these players salary will really be will be close but not exactly that.

[elemento]

Thanks Bruno that's what I thought. I really hope it's wrong

[Seventyniner]

Once the contract details for Splitter, Pendergraph, and Belinelli are determined, will there be a 2013-2014 version of this thread? I'm wondering if the Spurs will have enough expiring contracts that they're willing to move to help teams clear space for 2014 while preserving their own space for 2015. Or failling that, how much space the Spurs could potentially have in 2014 if they want to go that route. With Bonner, Diaw, Mills, and De Colo (de facto) expiring, there's potentially some flexibility to be had.

[Bruno]

Once the contract details for Splitter, Pendergraph, and Belinelli are determined, will there be a 2013-2014 version of this thread? I'm wondering if the Spurs will have enough expiring contracts that they're willing to move to help teams clear space for 2014 while preserving their own space for 2015. Or failling that, how much space the Spurs could potentially have in 2014 if they want to go that route. With Bonner, Diaw, Mills, and De Colo (de facto) expiring, there's potentially some flexibility to be had.

There will have a 2013-2014 version of this thread when the contracts numbers will be available.

For some potential 2014 cap sapce, that's Spurs current situation for 2014-2015 assuming both Joseph and Leonard options will be picked up at the end of the training camp, Jean-Charles and the 2014 first round pick will be stashed overseas for the 2014-2015 season:
Parker: $12.5M
Duncan: $10M
Splitter: $8.8M
Ginobili: $7M
Green: $4M
Leonard: $2.9M
Belinelli: $2.9M
Joseph: $2M
Pendergraph: $1.8M
3 min salary roster cap hold: $1.5M

For a total of $53.4M.

The cap is projected to be at $62.1M, so Spurs would have $7.7M in cap space.

[pad300]

There will have a 2013-2014 version of this thread when the contracts numbers will be available.

For some potential 2014 cap sapce, that's Spurs current situation for 2014-2015 assuming both Joseph and Leonard options will be picked up at the end of the training camp, Jean-Charles and the 2014 first round pick will be stashed overseas for the 2014-2015 season:
Parker: $12.5M
Duncan: $10M
Splitter: $8.8M
Ginobili: $7M
Green: $4M
Leonard: $2.9M
Belinelli: $2.9M
Joseph: $2M
Pendergraph: $1.8M
3 min salary roster cap hold: $1.5M

For a total of $53.4M.

The cap is projected to be at $62.1M, so Spurs would have $7.7M in cap space.

I take it you are assuming that we release the cap holds for Bonner, De Colo, etc, bird (and early bird) rights...

[Bruno]

I take it you are assuming that we release the cap holds for Bonner, De Colo, etc, bird (and early bird) rights...

Yes, I am.

[Seventyniner]

There will have a 2013-2014 version of this thread when the contracts numbers will be available.

For some potential 2014 cap sapce, that's Spurs current situation for 2014-2015 assuming both Joseph and Leonard options will be picked up at the end of the training camp, Jean-Charles and the 2014 first round pick will be stashed overseas for the 2014-2015 season:
Parker: $12.5M
Duncan: $10M
Splitter: $8.8M
Ginobili: $7M
Green: $4M
Leonard: $2.9M
Belinelli: $2.9M
Joseph: $2M
Pendergraph: $1.8M
3 min salary roster cap hold: $1.5M

For a total of $53.4M.

The cap is projected to be at $62.1M, so Spurs would have $7.7M in cap space.

A somewhat similar situation to this offseason, right? Diaw's cap hold will eat into some of that space assuming the Spurs want him back.

If the Spurs want more 2014 cap space, it will be somewhat difficult. The chances that any of the top 6 get traded are from very slim to none. The only way to make more otherwise would be to trade Belinelli, Pendergraph, or Joseph. The problem with trading the first two is that if they do well, the Spurs would like to keep them and if they do poorly, they'll be hard to dump.

[coyotes_geek]

$7.7 in cap space isn't anything to get excited about TBH. BAE + MLE is $7.3m and the Spurs wouldn't have to give up rights to Diaw/Bonner/Decolo to use those.

Not to mention the Spurs are going to have Leonard's extention to deal with next offseason, and probably even one for Parker. Going to be a busy offseason.

[ace3g]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/san-antonio-spurs-team-salary