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Compare their performance in the playoffs...that's where the biggest difference is. I'm not talking about just the '95 WCF. Hakeem historically stepped up his game in the playoffs, while D-Rob did the opposite.
That is an unknown fact! You are correct.
Compare their performance in the playoffs...that's where the biggest difference is. I'm not talking about just the '95 WCF. Hakeem historically stepped up his game in the playoffs, while D-Rob did the opposite.
Top 8
Definitely top 10 for centers but center is arguably the most compe ive position
You're aware Hakeem has two rings, right? So I'm confused how that could be "one" series.
The 94 Rockets were one of the weakest teams ever to win the le. Probably at or below the level of the 2003 Spurs. Hakeem was just that damn good. His stats for the '94 playoffs are mind-boggling. 29 ppg, 11 rpg, 4.3 assists, and 4 blocks. Almost 2 steals per as well. Just ludicrous.
When you say one good series do you really mean the two years when he was the best player in the game? You are not talking to a bunch of Houston fans here. David Robinson was or is the favorite player of probably most posters on here. I watched them both play and Hakeem was the better player.
To say that Robinson is better than Duncan is just absurd. Duncan has never been about the stats. Individually, Robinson was a freak of nature but he never improved his game the way Duncan has. Duncan has improved his dribbling, passing, free throws, jumpshot, foot work since he came into the league. Duncan is playing at a much higher level at his age than Robinson could have, mind you, I dont recall his age in 2003.
I wonder who would rank higher, Garnett or Robinson all time? Neither could get it done on their own as 'the man', Garnett got a stacked Celtics team and DRob got Timmy.
I agree.
Prime Robinson > Prime KG, although KG has had the way longer career.....
David Robinson is easily above Kevin Garnett, and it isn't very close. KG only has a single ring, and it was only gotten after fleeing to Boston to join other all stars and was not their team leader. Aka it barely means anything. DRob got his while staying with the same team and his greatest ally that year was a sop re Duncan. He also has a second (less valuble) ring.
DRob was both the better player and his "ring value", if you wanna make up a term to describe all rings not being created equally, is pretty much double what KG's is. KG was also never really known as a league dominant player. DRob on the other hand was considered better than Jordan for a time because of his good offense and incredibly dominating defense.
I like Bill Simmons and his (TBOB....2010) top 30 is like this:
30 - Willis Reed
29 - David Robinson
28 - Dwyane Wade
27 - Bill Walton
26 - Rick Barry
25 - John Stockton
Level 4:
24 - Scottie Pippen
23 - Isiah Thomas
22 - Kevin Garnett
21 - Bob Cousy
20 - LeBron James
19 - Charles Barkley
18 - Karl Malone
17 - Bob Pet
16 - Julius Erving
15 - Elgin Baylor
14 - John Havlicek
"The Pantheon" (Level 5):
13 - Moses Malone
12 - Shaquille O'Neal
11 - Hakeem Olajuwon
10 - Oscar Robertson
9 - Jerry West
8 - Kobe Bryant
7 - Tim Duncan
6 - Wilt Chamberlain
5 - Larry Bird
4 - Magic Johnson
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2 - Bill Russell
1 - Michael Jordan
by position:
Point Guards: Magic (4), Oscar (10), Cousy (21), Isiah (23), Stockton (25), Frazier (32), Nash (36), GP (41), Kidd (43), DJ (54), Tiny (60), Wilkens (71), Bing (81), Paul (90), KJ (93)
Shooting Guards: Jordan (1), Kobe (8), West (9), Wade (28), Jones (33), Iverson (37), Drexler (44), Greer (48), Sharman (53), Allen (62), Miller (63), Monroe (67), Pistol (68), Thompson (70), Moncrief (73), Dumars (74), Westphal (79), Goodrich (87), Carter (89), White (95)
Small Forwards: Bird (5), Hondo (14), Elgin (15), Dr. J (16), LeBron (20), Pippen (24), Barry (26), Gervin (34), Pierce (47), Cunningham (49), Worthy (50), 'Nique (55), Arizin (56), King (58), English (65), Dantley (66), T-Mac (77), Dandridge (80), Mullin (82), Hagan (83), Howell (91), Twyman (94)
Power Forwards: Duncan (7), Pet (17), Mailman (18), Barkley (19), KG (22), McHale (35), Dirk (39), DeBusschere (46), Hayes (51), Schayes (52), Heinsohn (57), Lucas (64), Rodman (69), Webber (72), Horry (84), Hawkins (86), Kemp (88), Chambers (96)
Centers: Russell (2), Kareem (3), Wilt (6), Hakeem (11), Shaq (12), Moses (13), Walton (27), Robinson (29), Reed (30), Cowens (31), Mikan (38), Ewing (40), Unseld (42), Thurmond (45), Parish (59), McAdoo (61), Gilmore (75), Issel (76), Howard (78), Sabonis (85), Lanier (92)
...but #29 is way to low in my book. Taking this list, I think he should rang around Malone/Barkley/Pet (but LeBron is higher now)...Probably I'd have him at #17...and call him about the 7th best center of all time.
Last edited by mudyez; 01-09-2014 at 12:13 PM.
People always tend to forget David carried a team of scrubs for most of his career and still had a wining team. Give him a Manu and parker then he would probably been just as successful as Timmy.
Not bad, but outdated. James should be positioned way higher now and Dirk Needs tobe on that list (and before KG). Also putting Kobe higher than Shaq is questionable, tbh.
Pippen and Wade above The Admiral?
No way I ever put shaq ahead of Drob. shaq was a lazy one-way player his whole career. He got away with murder offensivley didn't play any D, not to mention a liabilty late in games cause of his FT shooting. HE single handedly ruined the 2008 phoenix suns. Wasn't that great of a rebounder considering his size advantage over everyone. The real shame is, because of the back injury we may have never seen him at his best.
He's #50 in the top 50 players of all-time. Why not!
David was uniquely athletic to the position. He wasn't the big, plodding 7 footer that was slow on his feet. IN fact, i I would argue he was the most athletic 7 foot center to ever play the game but NOT top 5 in terms of skill. -- Hakeem was not 7 feet tall in case you are wondering. Shaq was undoubtedly more powerful but I think David was faster and more agile. He was amazing to watch in his prime. Reverse, alley-oop dunks, quick recovery time to help out on defense, etc. Just incredible.
To win a scoring le with very average footwork and a lack of go-to move was........wait for it......wait for it.....admirable.
His list is pretty good since it actually encompasses every player (I would bet a thousand dollars most posters on this forum wouldn't list half those guys in their top 30), though disagree with some of the placements.
Bird and Duncan's spots should be reversed. Duncan a winner for longer, less injury probs, more rings.
Kobe too high, but only because Shaq is set way too low and should be above him.
Hakeem slightly too low (switch spots with West imo)
Shaq is way too low, I don't get how he's that low tbh.
Havlicek WAY too high. Obvious homer pick.
DRob too low, better/more dominant than KG during their respective primes. KG's career lasted longer though.
Not much complaint about the rest. Give or take 1-2 spots otherwise. Good list overall. . .was definitely worth reading. Thanks for postin it.
He has put Pet on 17th yet not having Mikan top 30 ...
Dave should be higher /stockton and barry ahead of him ?/
I disagree. I think you're forgetting how dominant KG was from '03-'07. IIRC, he led Minnesota in all 5 categories (points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks) two years in a row from '04-05. That's insane. KG was DEFINITELY a league dominant player in those years. I also think you don't give KG enough credit for that '08 le. First off, KG was the driving force of that Celtics team. You really think it's coincidence they went from having the 16th best defense in '07 to having one of the best defenses of all-time in '08 with KG? You think getting Ray Allen was the main reason for that? KG might not have carried the load offensively, but that team didn't win on its offense. Those '08 Celtics won because they were amazing defensively, and KG was the biggest reason for that. I'm not saying KG deserves as much credit as someone like Duncan deserves for his '03 ring, but saying "it barely means anything" is flat-out ridiculous IMO.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2008/
Look at that impact. The Celtics defense gave up 9 more points per 100 possessions when KG wasn't on the court during the playoffs. That's ridiculous.
I also believe Duncan in his 2nd year was just as good as Pierce + Allen combined, or close to it. I'd argue KG had just as big of a role in his '08 le run as Robinson did in the Spurs '99 le run...or very close to it.
Top 20 and top 10 at Center. I really don't think he was much better than Ewing. They both got their butts kicked by Hakeem and neither had much help but still won a lot of games in the reg season.. David's inability to ring without Tim downgrades his legacy some..
I disagree with most your arguments. In fact, I suspect you didn't actually watch the NBA live, or were too young to comprehend it when DRob was in his prime. He was a much better player than KG, and it's literally not close. Like I said, people back then were talking about DRob as being superior to Michael Jordan for awhile. No offense, but if you're that strongly disagreeing, I have to think you simply didn't watch the NBA or any sports channels back then to see what other people thought about him too.
Some of your arguments too seem to be arguing with something that isn't being said. I never said KG wasn't a dominant player, so telling me is doesn't really address anything that's being said. I said he isn't and hasn't been as dominant as DRob was. It's a comparison between two players, not a do entary of KG's history. I know KG was good, just not as good as DRob.
As for Celtics 07 to 08 statistical changes, Rondo and Perkins were becoming better players, and they also added Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, Glen Davis, james Posey, and others. There was a massive rollover in their roster from 07 to 08. Let's not act like it was the same team + KG. Most of the team was overhauled.
This is also a common type of stat when you have a team with a good defensive big man and a mediocre backup. Sure it Sounds great, but there's always going to be a dropoff when you go from good defensive big to their backup who's almost always worse.Look at that impact. The Celtics defense gave up 9 more points per 100 possessions when KG wasn't on the court during the playoffs. That's ridiculous.
And yeah, his ring doesn't mean very much. He was not the obvious team leader, he fled his team to join a bunch of all stars on an overhauled roster, and could not recreate that success. You think that means as much as Hakeem's rings in the mid 90's? Or Dirk's a couple years ago? Yeah, it doesn't. It's value is less. Not all rings are created equal.
You need to focus more on the comparison dude, not telling me about things that just happened that we all know already. No one's saying KG was a bad player. It's about DRob vs KG, and you posted 0 points about the comparison. All you did was rehash some of KG's recent history.
The Knicks were undersized but Duncan at just 23 in his 2nd season could have shied away from the pressure of the finals like Lebron famously has.. Nope he demanded the ball and destroyed them..
What GM in his right mind would take Bob Cousy over Robinson or even Stockton?
You said yourself: "KG was never really known as a league-dominant player"...this is the main part I disagreed with. He won an MVP and was clearly the best player in the league in 2004. So I really don't get that comment.
And it's funny you bring up "arguing something that wasn't said". I never said KG's ring meant as much as Hakeem's or Dirk's. In fact, I specifically brought up how it WASN'T as meaningful as another ring (Duncan's in '03). But we're comparing KG to D-Rob, not Hakeem or Dirk. Robinson never won a ring as a 1st option either. He took his team to the WCF once as a 1st option. KG did the same in '04. KG lost to Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, Robinson lost to Hakeem's Rockets. I don't understand why you're acting like David Robinson was the biggest part of the Spurs winning in '99. Duncan was clearly the most important player on that team, both in the regular season and the playoffs. You think Robinson's ring means as much as Hakeem's rings or Dirk's?
As for fleeing the team...really? He dealt with Minnesota's horrible front office for what, 11 or 12 years before finally leaving? He wasted his entire prime playing for an organization that was never able to build a championship team around him. Something that would've happened to Robinson, too, had he not gotten injured and the Spurs lucked out by landing a once-in-a-lifetime player like Duncan to play alongside him.
I'm not even saying that Robinson isn't better than KG. I'm saying that you're completely selling KG short and that the gap isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be. In fact, KG/D-Rob were similar in some aspects. They were both drafted to small-market teams and completely carried their teams early on in their careers. However they were never surrounded by enough talent while they were in their primes to carry a team to a le. It wasn't until after they exited their primes that they had enough surrounding talent to win a le. Only difference is Robinson got injured and his team drafted Duncan, while Garnett eventually said it and left for a better team.
Basically: I'm perfectly fine with the Robinson > KG argument. In fact, I agree with it. I just don't think the gap between them is as great as you make it out to be. You're really underrating KG.
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