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A lot more insightful than the re ed comment you made.
Yeah, 'cause that's what you said.You're a blind homer if you think Manu has been better than Dwayne Wade over his career.
I agree with this list. I would just put AI over Wade, and Pistol Pete above those two. Wade would be 8th on my list.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/T...- le=&photo=
A lot more insightful than the re ed comment you made.
Yeah, 'cause that's what you said.You're a blind homer if you think Manu has been better than Dwayne Wade over his career.
Of course it's reasonable. The debate is comparing who you'd rather have now. You can't take age and decline out of the equation when they are some of the biggest factors. If this was still 2005-2007 it'd be great to still have that Ginobili. Or healthy 2011 Ginobili.
As for how Wade's better, firstly the Finals alone isn't a big enough sample size (yet) as it's only been three games and Manu has played worse and worse each game so far. Sure Manu's APG are nice. . .too bad he got 2/3rds of them in one game and barely any in the last one, along with barely any points or rebounds, and occasional terrible D like when he did his best hologram impersonation on that Wade baseline spin.
Also, Manu actually has created more turnovers than that. If he throws a terrible pass that barely grazes another Spur's fingertips, they credit the guy who touched it last for the turnover (Duncan and Splitter are usually the unfortunate scapegoats in the stat column for Manu's failed gambles). That happens all the time with Manu because he's always taking risks with his passes. High risk, low reward.
And wtf? He has Wade beat "substantially" in steals and blocks? What?He has only one more steal and one more block. That's the tiniest possible margin for having more. The exact opposite of a "substantial" difference. Wade also has Manu beat in FG%, so no he doesn't have Wade beat in all percentages. Higher FT% yes, but Wade's taken nearly twice as many, while Manu has nearly 50% more fouls while playing worse D anyway. Only slightly higher I eFG% and TS%. Literally one made basket of difference. Again, this is the opposite of "substantial", and three games is a small sample size especially when you consider Manu's play has been on a downtrend each game while Wade's been consistently producing.
He already was a top SG of all time pre-James. I'm not counting the rings he's getting now as full rings. In fact I barely count them at all. Same reason Kobe is not a top 5 all timer just because he has 5 rings. The ones he got with Shaq barely count. What a guy has around him devalues his les if he has more help.
If you believe Wade isn't a top 10 SG ever, please list me 10 better ones.
There's nothing worse than a worthless idiot who thinks he has great value and is actually contributing to a discussion. You're just another token Spur homer with bad basketball takes and a closed mind. You could disappear right now and not only would nobody notice, but the forum would be enhanced. Addition by subtraction.
Havlicek, Maravich, David Thompson, Gervin, Earl Monroe, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Sam Jones <-- you could make a case wade should be mixed in there somewhere
Iverson, Kobe, Jordan, Jerry West, Drexler
And you're such a great poster that everyone will miss. That's why everyone is agreeing with you.
Look, nobody is saying that Manu has been better than Wade over their respective careers and nobody is saying Manu is better than Wade now. We are just saying that your "We would have 8 rings right now with Wade instead of Manu or this current team would be better with Wade than Manu" is narrow-sighted and stupid. First of all, good luck with getting Wade to accept coming off the bench and allowing Green to succesful develop in the player he is now. Then you have to consider Wade's antique skillsets trying to fit the Spurs system. Dribble happy, one on one guy that can't shoot from 15 feet and isn't half as good a passer as Ginobili.
One more thing: Do you think Wade would be as productive as Manu is on such limited playing time? I don't.
I get the flaw in per 36 but posting a comparison of their Conference & NBA Finals performances should come with the asterisk that Wade logged 35.1 mpg to Ginobili's 24.8.
its not like Wade has drastically outperformed Ginobili.
Wade in ECF and Finals: 22 PPG. 4.4 RPG.4 APG. 3.1 T.O. 54.3% FG% *(35.1 MPG)
Manu in WCF and Finals: 15.2 PPG. 2.9 RPG. 4.2 APG. 1.3 T.O 49.4% FG% *(24.8 MPG)
Wades value is primarily in is his efficiency scoring the ball, which is valuable of course. Ginobili's value is in both his play-making and bursts of scoring. He can take over games in multiple ways. He can pick teams apart with his passing or his creativity in finding opening to the rim.
The Spurs are 7 points better per 100 possessions when he on the court as opposed to when he sits. The Spurs thrive when he plays, regardless of who he plays with. The Heat have been a train wreck with Wade and no Lebron on the court. His 3pt shooting, or ability to create open looks from behind the arc helps make him a move difficult cover.
I'm not denying that Wade is towards the top of the all time SG list but at this point, Ginobili is probably better than Wade or at the very least more impactful. Whether he's knocking down 5 3's in a half or having 11 assists off the bench his "Ghost or Gambler" games have been fewer and further in between this year.
He ,actually, has 12 turnovers in his past 9 games to Wades 28. Ginobili is still averaging more assists in 10 fewer minutes. Even if he played comparable minutes, he'd turn the ball over only about 2.4 times per game his assists to turnover ratio.
2.6 to 1 compared to Wades 1.29 to 1
Our you just looking at production, talent or situations (i.e personality, team chemistry, coachablity, etc.) because there is no way in we'd be better off with Wade. As DAF86 pointed out Wade would never take coming off the bench for Green.
Deferring to a player who is the best in the world is easier than deferring to a player who has been consistently overlooked at his position (Parker) and Duncan, who is still probably our best player.
Duncan wouldn't be nearly as productive with Wade in place of Ginobili. Wade is 1/3 of the play maker and his lack of a 3pt shot kills floor spacing.
A Parker-Wade-Leonard-Splitter-Duncan lineup would have been a train wreck given Parker seldom shoots them, and Kawhi's streaky range. Our offense wouldn't be anywhere near as good. Probably in the 10-15 range.
Wades a bit of a diva and is infamous for arguing non calls while his assignment burns his team in transition. I'm not entirely sold that even four years younger, he is a better defender than Ginobili is.
The Spurs would have to spend more money to even accommodate Wade.
I'm probably over thinking your hypothetical but its not hard to poke holes into that statement.
Very disappointing that I forgot about Gervin
I don't see why there should be an asterisk. As if it's bad that Wade has more stamina to be able to help his team for 30% longer per game? You would only have to asterisk it if you were using Per 36 stats due to the massive minutes played difference favoring the player who actually put up less stats. You'd then be making it seem as if he produced more when he didn't. He just produced slightly more per minute, but played a lot less. Per 36 almost always favors the guy playing less time since they can go all out during their play. Kinda like how relief pitchers usually always have better ERAs and BA against stats than starters who pitch 2 1/2 times more innings per season.
Speaking of which, I kind of like that analogy. A pitcher that pitches 7 innings per game and puts up similar/better stats to one who rarely even hits the 5 inning per game mark is absolutely more of a help to his team even if the other has a slightly better ERA or BA against. Dunno if you're a baseball fan, but if you are I'm sure that makes perfect sense. Those guys that pitch 5 innings and have great ERAs, like Rich Harden, rarely have high win totals because they aren't in the game long enough to claim many.
Anyway, yes Manu has more assists. Their roles are different. Thing is, Manu, in his role, is a lot less consistent and more prone to going up in flames with a terrible game or stretches of back to back to back poor plays. I don't want the value of the consistency of a stable player to be understated. Imagine how many games you wish Manu was just average or even a little below average instead of a ghost or playing like dog last season. Game 6 for example. Wade's worst game of those Finals would've been greatly preferred over that trashy Manu game. Wade's worst game of the Finals last year was also better than 3-4 other Manu games those Finals, and that's my issue.
Manu's averages are decent for his minutes, and his assists are indeed good, but he is VERY hit or miss. I just don't like that out of a player who is given so many responsibilities. His assists went from 11 to 4 to 2. Great to average to poor for his role. Wade's scoring (his main role), went from 19 to 14 to 22. A bit above his average, a bit below his average, and noticeably above his average. Never too low yet dropped in a nice 22.
Last year's Finals, Manu had a mediocre game, then a very poor game, followed by another poor game, followed by a below average game, then one great game followed by a HORRENDOUS game, then a decent game to close it. So 4 below average to poor games, one great game, one slightly above average one, and one terrible game which we all remember since it was the biggest negative for us by far that night.
Wade started with an average Wade game, followed by a below average one where he at least still got 6 assists, then an average Wade game, followed by two great games, then an average one, and closed it out with another great game. So 3 great games, 3 average games, and one slightly below average one.
Wade is/has been better because he puts up more overall stats and does it consistently. Manu is a dice roll every night. You never know what's going to come up or when he'll crap out. And he's crapped out every year for years now. I like the guy but he has not been reliable ever since he hurt himself at the end of his great 2011 season.
You're looking to deeply into it. I'm talking just basketball talent and production only, not night club debacles or press conference trolling. I would happily trade this Manu for 8 years ago Manu instead of current Wade. I wouldn't defend his ty personsince I've pretty much gone on record saying he's a dbag and a poor leader.
Saying things that everyone agrees with doesn't make one a good poster. It just means you're pointing out the obvious since you're too scared to post stuff some people may not like. That also assumes most of the forum is logical, intelligent, and has good takes (since apparently the forum agreeing means good poster). Certainly not the case here. You have a very odd concept of what a good poster is.And you're such a great poster that everyone will miss. That's why everyone is agreeing with you.
Look, nobody is saying that Manu has been better than Wade over their respective careers and nobody is saying Manu is better than Wade now. We are just saying that your "We would have 8 rings right now with Wade instead of Manu or this current team would be better with Wade than Manu" is narrow-sighted and stupid. First of all, good luck with getting Wade to accept coming off the bench and allowing Green to succesful develop in the player he is now. Then you have to consider Wade's antique skillsets trying to fit the Spurs system. Dribble happy, one on one guy that can't shoot from 15 feet and isn't half as good a passer as Ginobili.
One more thing: Do you think Wade would be as productive as Manu is on such limited playing time? I don't.
Didn't even read the rest. We can try to have an actual discussion in another thread later if you don't try to kick things off with one line douchbaggery again. You obviously didn't want to actually discuss the topic or my post initially so no point in starting now.
"Didn't even read the rest"
Why do people still use this? That and saying "I don't have any counter-argument" is the same . Like anyone would believe you didn't read the next 5 lines.
It's better to just don't reply than making yourself look stupid by saying something no smart person could ever believe, tbh.
Agree on Wade, but Green is normally known for steals. Green is already on the playoff leader board at #205 tied with Carlos Boozer, Mike Conley, Artis Gilmore, John Havlicek and Kevin Willis. More opportunities? No, (unless you're talking about the opportunity to guard Wade). Green is not on the leader board for games or minutes played.
"Didn't even read the rest"
Why do people still use this? That and saying "I don't have any counter-argument" is the same . Like anyone would believe you didn't read the next 5 lines.
It's better to just don't reply than making yourself look stupid by saying something no smart person could ever believe, tbh.
How is this clown ^^^ bolded when Kidd K is grayed? That should be switched.
For the same reason you are grayed, tbh.
The Spurs must have seen this video of Wyane Wae
Yeah, Manu's 7 points, 1 rebound, 2 assists, 3 fouls and 4 turnovers was a virtuoso performance right?
Wade doubled his rebounds and assists while ripping 4 steals to more than counter the extra few misses above normal FG% he had.
Don't act like broken down Manu who yet again declined in production for the 3rd game in a row did better.
Manu can still get out of the way, Wade was our best defensive player tonight.Yeah, Manu's 7 points, 1 rebound, 2 assists, 3 fouls and 4 turnovers was a virtuoso performance right?
Wade doubled his rebounds and assists while ripping 4 steals to more than counter the extra few misses above normal FG% he had.
Don't act like broken down Manu who yet again declined in production for the 3rd game in a row did better.
Yeah, Manu "gets out of the way" of Heat players with the ball with his matador defense.
That's a devastating video.
Wade: "I got's the Herpes"
Manu led the team in +-. I think he was +26? Come on now. Manu did a ton of things to make the offense hum. TP too.Yeah, Manu's 7 points, 1 rebound, 2 assists, 3 fouls and 4 turnovers was a virtuoso performance right?
Wade doubled his rebounds and assists while ripping 4 steals to more than counter the extra few misses above normal FG% he had.
Don't act like broken down Manu who yet again declined in production for the 3rd game in a row did better.
He can have the Matt Bonner award then.
I didn't say TP's been bad. I'm always defending him tbh, so I dunno why you're bringing him up. The debate is Wade vs Manu.
Seriously? That's what you took away from the game?Yeah, Manu's 7 points, 1 rebound, 2 assists, 3 fouls and 4 turnovers was a virtuoso performance right?
I posted Manu's stats in reply to Wade's stats being posted in a Wade vs Manu thread.
I'm not sure what about this is confusing to you honestly. Putting all the data out there.
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