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Also I'm not ripping on soldiers or anyone in the military. I respect them as a person, not because they're a soldier.
You don't know that.
Also I'm not ripping on soldiers or anyone in the military. I respect them as a person, not because they're a soldier.
That is because you have no idea what the military is like. You have no idea what other countries are like. You are only looking at a piece of the puzzle, not the whole picture.
Special interests, corporations like Halliburton, the oil companies, etc., and politicians are at fault, such as what happened in the Vietnam war, not the military.
And we need to change our dependency on oil for sure, which was going to be one of Obama's directives. But that never happened.
No critical thought should ever be suppressed and it should go along with civilized non-violent action.
I am also a huge proponent of a world wide free press which acts as a deterrent to uncivilized actions across the globe, not just in the USA.
But even in countries like Mexico the free press is being wiped out.
Yes I do. All of history shows it will happen. I mean , we did it to the native americans.
roberto doing work tbh
proof that 100M barrels came from Iraq?
cost of oil imported to US is based on the world price, not the cost of US/UK BigOil produce in Iraq.
And if you want to consider costs, what about the $3T+ US taxpayers paid/pay for invading Iraq? What the cost of a barrel of Iraqi including the cost of the invasion and 10+ years of occupation, and now $100Bs more to try to stop ISIS created by the US invasion?
Does Bible-humping make you Christians so intellectually constipated, limited, erroneous in all other areas of your lives?
In any debate, we should have numbers. It would be pretty easy for one side to prove their point statistically. If you claim military members are generally dumb, post the stats on how many people get into the militiary with no college degree (what percentage). Post IQ scores for the average military person. For those defending the military, post the numbers in your favor.
Also, the one thing that bothers me is the "following orders" thing. Military or not, wrong is wrong. So if on one hand you admit that you don't believe in the things we do as a country, with our military, you can't on the other hand absolve soliders just following orders. People are smart and know right from wrong. Just following orders, in the face of something you believe is wrong is dangerous.
Imagine that logic in any other place in the world. Imagine not placing blame on people carrying out things you believe to be wrong because they were just following orders.
Guys, so many of you are missing the point. The invasion is not a physical one, the invasion is an economic one. Honestly, it's what makes America what it is. Good or bad, America is run by money and exists BECAUSE of the desire for money. So you can say that soldiers are not protecting your freedom, but you would be wrong because you've only scratched the surface of what goes on behind the scenes. I won't pretend that I know everything because I surely do not, but you're missing that without having a foothold in the Middle East, we wouldn't be able to exert any sort of pressure on oil-producing countries. Without oil, our country would grind to a halt. Imagine a scenario where fuel skyrockets to $8/gallon. Just a simple change such as this can bring this country to its knees. Truckers would stop operating because they might be operating at a loss. The price of food would shoot through the roof in order to pay the truckers that will continue to ship lettuce to your local HEB. People wouldn't be able to afford that fuel to get to work or to look for jobs and the unemployment rate would also jump. All of the services that we take for granted as a good business to get into would disappear. What good is having a fully functional AC unit in your house if you can barely afford to eat? Unfortunately, this country has become so reliant on fossil fuels that our cities are now laid out in ways that your job might be 20 miles from your home. Would you be walking to work or pay the $5 bus fare? Those who can't get by would resort to what? Rioting? Theft? Murder? Once this starts happening, do you think that martial law would be far behind? This is a very precarious economy and world that we live in and it is absolutely based on money. To think otherwise is folly. So yes, soldiers abroad that are protecting the business interests are also protecting your personal freedoms.
Great point. Soldiers are not able to use the "just following orders" excuse. I'm sure that's simply rhetoric because any soldier knows that what he or she does, he or she will be held accountable for their actions. In a position of leadership, we punished the soldier on their actions, regardless of their orders. Then, the leadership would be punished as well for giving orders that may have resulted in deviant behavior. It's not uncommon for a high-ranking officer to be tried for abusing power.
Very true. There are two types of orders. Lawful orders and unlawful orders. The soldier reserves the right to apply his own moral judgment to decide whether or not to follow the order or his superiors. Should he choose not to follow the order and the order is deemed unlawful, the issuing officer is the one that is punished, not the lower rank. If he follows and the order is deemed unlawful, both parties are subject to punishment.
Most of the middle eastern countries don't like the USA much. Why would they sell us oil?
Bible humping huh? Intellectually constipated, limited??? Perhaps. Then again, I am happy to know that people work in more ways than 1+1 = 2. There is much more than pure logic that operates in the world. Are you so limited to not see it? With matters involving people, you also have to determine emotional states, personalites, beliefs, etc. These things aren't easily quantified. Perhaps that is why you choose to ignore it and remain a slave to your reasoning. You cannot see what a person is for who they really are. That makes you blind, deaf, and ignorant to the people around you.
eia.gov This is where the references are pertaining the oil imports. You are also deflecting in order to avoid an answer. What reason do countries in the middle east have to sell us oil?
Last edited by xellos88330; 11-10-2014 at 01:19 PM.
The U.S. didn't invaded Iraq because the oil was expensive or anything like that. The U.S. invaded Iraq because Cheney was the vice-president and major stock holder of Halliburton. Nowadays, Hallburton makes billions in profit from their Iraq operations so does Cheney.
The ISIS isn't related with the former regime of Saddam Hussein, but they grew in his absense under the Saudi Arabia(american allie) influence AND funding. The only worries from U.S. about ISIS is the fact they represent a threat to Halliburton and several other american corporations operating (and profiting) in Iraq. Americans don't give a about freedom, it's all about profits. The U.S. gave ammunition, training to the talibans to fight against the soviets. If the Al Qaeda didn't ed the WTC, they should be in charge in Afeghanistan until nowadays. As the dictator Mubarak stayed in charge for decades because he was an american allie. U.S. doesn't give a about freedom, this is all bull to brainwash the iliterate dumb s.
Last edited by PingPong; 11-10-2014 at 02:55 PM.
Just as much as legal, there are moral concerns. I think the point the OP/others are making (even though OP is not smart IMO) is that soldiers are either not smart enough to realize the orders they follow arent for the reasons they are given or worse yet that they do know why they are doing what they do & don't care because they are being paid to do a job.
It's not my belief, but I think the issue is your view of our military and the use of military & if you think its legal and/or moral. At that point, depending on where your beliefs are, you either don't think they should be applauded or you do because you believe that they do the right things for the right reasons.
Oh wow, wtf happened here?
smh, you should've stopped in your previous post, tbh... the US has been a net exporter of oil for at least a couple of years. Has that stopped the wars? No. Why does it export so much if there's such high internal demand? Because Mr OilCo doesn't give a about 'Murica or the peons living within it. He will sell it to the highest bidder, stash the earnings in Luxembourg away from Uncle Sam and move on. When he's called out, he'll cry that he employs X peons, funnel some hush money to Y SuperPAC, then get some cozy tax breaks. If the amount of outright stealing is egregious, they'll get a slap in the wrist.
Now I can't pin all that on service members, because they obviously don't write policy (especially policy that supports such behavior which directly hurt Americans). That said, somebody could make an argument they're the de facto enforcers of some of those misguided policies, and I think this is where DPG is making the argument about the morality of acting on behalf of companies/en ies that don't really care about America or Americans in general.
Anyways, this is obviously a much more complex topic (and I haven't even touched the MIC, another can of worms), that probably belongs on the Political forum.
Lol robdiaz. Why would anyone want to invade us? :rofl
Forget the ("hypotheticals" lol) amazing water resources or existing/potential farmland. If someone invaded and took control of the free Wikipedia servers, what would you do then?
Soldiers aren't smart enough to be a Taco Bell manager, at least they should be ordinary clerks.
I see the diference.
To be fair, you've only given two options there. On one hand, a soldier is not intelligent if he follows orders given, and the other is they follow orders because they are being paid to do it. While there are a myriad of reasons why someone joins the service, I'll focus on one: duty.
A soldier's duty is to "stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat" as "a guardian of freedom and the American way of life". When I joined in 2004, it was because of duty, and I can confidently say that the majority of those with whom I fought were there for the same reason, whatever shade of grey it may have been. After 9-11, there was a strong sense of duty to protect what was ours. A lot of you might forget, or maybe were even too young to have properly grasped how the nation felt as a community. There was outrage, sympathy, empathy, denial, su ion, and every other emotion, but the call to duty was stronger. So we volunteered to fight what we thought at the time was the good fight. To protect what was ours; our way of life. Keep the fighting on their soil and off of ours. What does this have to do with intelligence? Nothing at all. What does it have to do with following orders? Nothing at all. This is my point. We joined for reasons other than those that you so easily type. Not a single person makes the decision to join lightly. This is a life-altering decision; one that will change the very fabric of your being. Throw your beliefs into upheaval. You put some clothes in a backpack and you head out to protect your homeland without a single person that you've known your entire life; without the comforts that you've always known. Without the very same freedoms that you've sworn to protect, as you sign your life away under the penalty of incarceration. Again, what does this have to do with following orders or intelligence?
Once we were there, the politics were meaningless. My opinion changed when I saw the chaos that we had started. When I saw the homes we had destroyed. Then my opinion changed again when I saw the Iraqi people hugging us and thanking us; inviting us in for dinner and laughter. Again, my opinion changed when I lost a friend. What was it all for? And again, another change of heart when we rescued some Iraqis who were being held hostage and were on the verge of execution; the tears that the mother shared saturating my balaclava. Yet again when I sent a young soldier to her death by trying to do the right thing. The life of a soldier isn't one so easily classified as "stupid" or just "being paid to do a job". There are a lot of ups and downs. Yes, we followed orders and the majority of those orders are given with safety in mind: the safety of US personnel and the safety of host-nation civilians. But following orders is not inherently an evil thing. It can guide you; prepare you for an inevitability. Make you ready for an attack, or keep your unit together so you can all get home. The term "following orders" is a heavy one, wrought with mental images of big brother, brainwashing, or a robotic execution of malicious plans. However, the truth is that the choice to follow orders is a personal one that has numerous implications for each person who decides to do so. Most of us don't have to make those life or death choices within a couple of seconds. are you so sure that you would fare any better? Just as we on this board question the management of our favorite teams from the comfort of our homes without the complications of direct involvement, so can we decide that we would have made the better choice; realistic or not.
case = rested
I just listed the options that OP was referencing. There's two sides: OP side that thinks in terms of the two options & the other side that doesnt agree with that (I.E. People join out of pride/duty & believe the wars they fight are for what's being said at face value).
My entire family (except me) was military & while I believe much of what you said there's a lot of hyperbole too. I have personally known several people who took the decision to enroll lightly. They used it as a last ditch effort to overcome the troubles they got into and/or because they had limited other options. I also know people that actively decided to go & several that did so after they obtained their college degrees (from Westpoint or other schools).
Trying to distinguish between who "cares" about America and who doesn't is a daunting task. Take that to a corporate level where the detail of the day/week/year is shareholder profit and suddenly patriotism is just a neat little pin on the lapel of the ops manager, because many in the corporation aren't even Americans. However even if it was a completely up and up patriotic endeavor, it would be smacked down as being patriotic bull without people in mind, elitism and such.
If you haven't served in an armed forces unit anywhere in the world, you probably don't understand the viewpoint from a serviceman's perspective. You probably view it as a job where people didn't sign their lives away and are under a completely different set of laws than you or I (but have to also abide by ours) and they don't get fired or laid off, they cannot come in late for work, cannot call in. They are there or they are AWOL. Volunteered though, so yes they get what they paid for (heh) but then we get what we paid for as well, as we can sit in our 2 story brick homes and post ty opinions about things we probably know little to nothing about, and yet no one is kicking our doors in, dragging us into the street and publicly executing us for speaking out. Someone has to defend that, it's not an innate gift we cannot ever lose. Granted, there's ty things done in the name of freedom, but done also in every other name you can imagine. You wouldn't call every NBA player a piece of just because SBC center raised it's ticket prices and they are making millions.
the whole point here is to say that to have a military appreciation nights or giving a big round of applause to the 5 vet inside the buiding is dumb.
Military are professionals, they chose to serve and are paid to do so so why would these citizens being special ? Why not an appreciation night for the surgeons who are paid to save lives ? why not a big round of applauses for the nurses ? why not for the workers building cars so we have freedom to travel ? etc...
This describes the majority of the people I knew in the service to a tee. Few join to fight, those that do end up in special units but they are there often for egotistical reasons, not for patriotic ones. Soldiers should not be put on a pedestal, but they should not be frowned upon either.
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