Pop landing a gutshot on Chinook...

[Malik Hairston]

Tiago splitter..

Constantly calling him a blue collar guy didn't stop the spurs from paying him his worth...

Yep..Splitter got more than anybody expected, despite Pop implying some negativity about him..

[ElNono]

Green has also filled in spot minutes as PG this season, due to the team being undermanned. His continued growth as an NBA player has been nothing short of impressive, tbh... the main knock on him always has been his ball handling, and while he still fumbles the ball here or there, and it's nowhere near naturals like Beli or Gino, he has also made great strides in that department. The addition of a semi-reliable floater alone should easily earn him some extra $$$ this offseason.

[wildchild]

I remember when Chinook started tracking the defensive efficiency of the different Spurs players last playoffs, particularly during the OK series. He provided his method: how often did a player the spurs player was defending score? Essentially on-ball defense. It sounded objective and a decent try.

Now, Pop said Green is good on-ball, but lacking still on off-ball d, so help defense. Sounds reasonable also.

Anyway, I realize after reading this thread now that Chinook is simply biased towards green, and I now seriously doubt the objectivity of the application of the seemingly objective method. Sad.

Well, his numbers tried to show even Marco defended Durant better than Leonard...

But we can't only look the PPP stats to analyse globally the defense. There are a lot of factors to take into account like allowing more or less attempts in a game, more or less contested/uncontested shots, etc.

However, if the best of Leonard defense was disregarded by his stats and analysis, it doesn't mean he did it on purpose. Maybe it was just...an accidental thing.

[wildchild]

While I agree that Kawhi's defensive ceiling is higher, his physical abilities/traits are overwhelming and pretty rare, I do think he benefits greatly from aesthetics, tbh..he has "the look" of an intimidating defensive player and he has more defensive highlights, due to his freakish arms/hands(like his legendary strip on Westbrook in game 6.

Yeah...the physical gifts are clearly there, but he's the best perimeter defender not because his freakish arms/hands.

He has the desire, at ude, effort, work ethic, great defensive instincts and skills...He really does have all the physical/mental tools AND the talent.

[Malik Hairston]

Yeah...the physical gifts are clearly there, but he's the best perimeter defender not because his freakish arms/hands.
He has the desire, at ude, effort, work ethic, great defensive instincts and skills...He really does have all the physical/mental tools AND the talent.

Of course he does, a lot of players with the tools to be great defenders don't actually produce defensively(Batum, Jeff Green, etc), Kawhi is obviously a top-tier defender..I'm just saying, even if he wasn't as good defensively, he still has the advantage of aesthetics due to his physical traits..

[r0drig0lac]

If I had two bullets and could kill Hitler and Popovich, I'd shoot Pop twice.

haha

[dabom]

Kawhi is way better than green on defense. Any respectable basketball mind know s tHiS pop just tells it like it is.

[dabom]

I remember chinnook telling me kawhi didn't sHt DWn Westbrook. LoL I toLd him to go back and watch the games. Hahahahhahahahhaahahh

[spursfaninla]

Green's defensive metrics are elite in every facet, not just Chinook's analysis..

Agreed that Green appears to be top 10 in several advanced metrics, such as defensive rating, defensive win shares, and defensive box Plus/minus (also props for a very high replacement rating) from basketballreference.com.

that was not the point.

Two: Chinook makes "green vs. Leonard" defensive comparisons all the time, and points to his objective study from last year's playoff's as proof that his opinion is better than your anecdotal opinion. The website above's advanced defensive stats say otherwise, but I don't even care myself who is better.

Danny is an elite on-ball defender, and an elite 3pt shooter. He is improving his middle game, but I would say he is still average/below average offensively outside of 3pts.

The fact that we have 3 top 10 defenders on the spurs this year by those metrics does matter to me.

More important than individual defensive pissing contests, if splitter comes back, we will be even more dominant defensively. That would rock.

[TDfan2007]

I think Pop is mostly talking about "doing your defensive work early" and "attention to detail". Danny is probably the best defender we have one on one, that is, when the opposing player is already in it's spot and comfortable with the ball. He has the length to force players to drive, he can block or swipe at the ball successfully if they do drive around him, but I think what Pop is talking about is the off the ball defense: preventing your man from getting to their sweet spots, working through screens to beat your man to the spot, that kind of stuff. It's not uncommon to see Danny having to catch up to his guy, be it running out to a shooter in the corner, or after getting stuck on a screen, IMO.

It's really nitpicking, Danny has evolved into a great defender, really, and if Pop wants more from him is because he feels he can get that from Danny. You would never hear him saying anything like that about Beli, because he already knows Beli can't get anywhere near that level.

This.

Danny is an amazing 1-on-1 defender and transition defender, but he frequently has brain farts and leaves shooters wide open while "helping" for no reason. He also frequently gets lost on off-ball screens. Kawhi doesn't have those problems. His issues come w/ lateral quickness and staying in front of really speedy/shifty smaller players ala Manta Ellis.

[Baseline]

Pop is not a genius at all. He's actually a selfish prick who - in the span of one minute - coached us out of a le by putting Tim Duncan on the bench in Game 6.

As far as his five les are concerned? He's had Tim Duncan for his entire career. End of story.

[dabom]

Wtf????? Hhahahahhahahaha

[Chinook]

I remember when Chinook started tracking the defensive efficiency of the different Spurs players last playoffs, particularly during the OK series. He provided his method: how often did a player the spurs player was defending score? Essentially on-ball defense. It sounded objective and a decent try.

Now, Pop said Green is good on-ball, but lacking still on off-ball d, so help defense. Sounds reasonable also.

Anyway, I realize after reading this thread now that Chinook is simply biased towards green, and I now seriously doubt the objectivity of the application of the seemingly objective method. Sad.

This is corroborates by my own evaluations of the defensive contributions of the players in the OK series after watching game 6 several times.

In any event, feeling sorry for Green, that he is not given credit, and particularly thinking Green deserves more money, etc, demonstrates Green fanboy status and biased views TBH.

As others have said, even if those takes were true, as a spurs fan I put the team's interest first and overpaying green would be stupid.

Green was given a chance by the spurs when he had been cut by terrible teams and been bouncing around the D league. He as been given a staring role on the Spurs when he would have otherwise been out of the NBA. He has a good salary, and is old enough that he has essentially no upside. He did great and feeling sorry for him or feeling he has been mistreated shows you are a green fan over a spurs fan, and I simply can't trust an objective application of an otherwise objective methodology.

1) My method was biased toward help defense. I gave a long preface to all three threads explaining the strengths and weaknesses of my method.

2) Green's an elite help defender, which is why his numbers are great. Most of his blocks come from weakside rotations. That Pop doesn't like Green's help doesn't make it bad.

3) lol at your ad hominem fallacy.

I like Green because he's a good player; I don't think he's a good player because I like him. You're welcome to make counter arguments, but I'm not sympathetic to your current line of reasoning in the slightest.

[dabom]

Chinook at it again. No, green is not a better defender than kawhi.

[Chinook]

Agreed that Green appears to be top 10 in several advanced metrics, such as defensive rating, defensive win shares, and defensive box Plus/minus (also props for a very high replacement rating) from basketballreference.com.

that was not the point.

Two: Chinook makes "green vs. Leonard" defensive comparisons all the time, and points to his objective study from last year's playoff's as proof that his opinion is better than your anecdotal opinion. The website above's advanced defensive stats say otherwise, but I don't even care myself who is better.

Danny is an elite on-ball defender, and an elite 3pt shooter. He is improving his middle game, but I would say he is still average/below average offensively outside of 3pts.

The fact that we have 3 top 10 defenders on the spurs this year by those metrics does matter to me.

More important than individual defensive pissing contests, if splitter comes back, we will be even more dominant defensively. That would rock.

I'm sorry that you can't understand why empirical analysis is better than ad hoc opinion. But saying I'm biased doesn't mean I scored Green better. If anything, he got robbed in the middle games of the WCF on several occasions due to helping on the Russ/KD PnR when Leonard and Parker kept flubbing the switch.

[Chinook]

I remember chinnook telling me kawhi didn't sHt DWn Westbrook. LoL I toLd him to go back and watch the games. Hahahahhahahahhaahahh

And you still look like a fool.

[Baam]

Wonder how different the debate would be if Green won the 2013 Fmvp...

[SpursFan86]

Wonder how different the debate would be if Green won the 2013 Fmvp...

Why would that make any difference?

[dabom]

And you still look like a fool.

Chinook with the bads per par. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=233376&page=2

Look at all that homerism in there.

Kawhi is the best defender in our team and the best perimeter defender in the game.

Chinook uses stats as reliable as plus/minus.

Not all stats are useless but they don't paint the whole picture. You need to learn that before you start basing your ideas on them.

[dabom]

Why would that make any difference?

[Baam]

Why would that make any difference?

Cause Green would be viewed on equal footing with Leonard.

[dabom]

Cause Green would be viewed on equal footing with Leonard.

Do people even use context anymore?

[SpursFan86]

Don't see how Green winning FMVP in 2013 changes whether he's better or worse than Kawhi at defense.

[Baam]

Don't see how Green winning FMVP in 2013 changes whether he's better or worse than Kawhi at defense.

Because he wouldn't be dismissed as easily by Pop.

[BillMc]

I'm not one who has looked into the advanced metrics, so my opinion on the players tends to just come from watching them. Obviously Danny is a terrific defender, but Pop feels he must still improve before being in the same conversation with Kawhi. Whether this is what Pop actually thinks or some motivational game for Danny, or a combination of both, I don't know.

I have to say though reading the informed posts on both sides of the argument is very enjoyable. It's rare these days on Spurstalk to get an interesting thread and debate like this, as our site seems now to have been overrun by trolls. A few years ago we'd often have some fantastic analyses of publishable quality, but those seem rarer since we returned to the Finals and many bandwagoners appeared. (Not to say there haven't been many new terrific posters added, there have, but with them have come a lot of trolls sadly)