Pop landing a gutshot on Chinook...

[Chinook]

How about this for objective:

Defensive Rating 2014 (BasketBallReference.com)
1. Andrew Bogut-GSW 91.5
2. Tim Duncan-SAS 94.5
3. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 96.2
4. Draymond Green-GSW 96.2
5. Stephen Curry-GSW 97.3
6. Tony Allen-MEM 97.5
7. Danny Green-SAS 97.5


Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2

The following is from 82games.com. It shows Green's opponent production this year. he is doing well against sg and sf, but notice how pg's are torching him.

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 21.3 .714 .0 28% 6.1 6.1 3.0 .0 .0 30.5 29.0
SG 17.3 .379 2.6 21% 5.5 4.4 2.6 1.0 2.4 14.7 8.0
SF 16.7 .459 3.8 25% 5.2 1.8 2.9 .9 4.1 18.9 10.6

Leonards opponent's production this year. EFG by opposing sf is essentially the same, yet PER allowed is better by Green. In any event, average opponent PER production or lower for Leonard:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
SF 16.0 .464 2.2 27% 6.8 4.5 1.5 .6 3.2 16.6 15.0
PF 11.0 .250 8.8 30% 3.3 3.3 1.1 1.1 6.6 12.1 3.3

How is that any more objective? It's just someone else's stats. These are stats that you don't know (or seem to not know) how they're calculated, so you probably don't really know what they mean. Also, you seem to have just taken the BR stats that make Leonard look better and ignored the ones that made Green look better. How's that for bias?

Also at you taking about Green's PG stats when he played there for 1 percent of his total minutes. Objectivity is understanding that that is a tiny sample size and is not statistically significant.

I'd rather you just keep doing the eye-test, "Pop Says" thing rather than just posting up stats like these.

[Chinook]

Westbrook with godzilla stats and then doesnt play the fourth the next game because pop put kawhigodmode on him. Even Pop flat out denies any arguments that green is a better defender than kawhi and homers just can't accept the truth.

Westbrook score more than half of his Game Four points when Pop had already benched the starters. That you don't remember how that game ended explains why you can't actually make any arguments.

[timtonymanu]

Non-issue. Pop is definitely a Kawhi homer but I'm sure he knows how important Danny is.

[dabom]

Westbrook score more than half of his Game Four points when Pop had already benched the starters. That you don't remember how that game ended explains why you can't actually make any arguments.

You're so fail in this argument. Kawhi basically iced game 5 for us with his defense and you can't see it. Stopped a repeat of 2012. Pop said Kawhi is better than green in defense and you can't see it. What now? You're becoming a terrible poster with these bad takes.

[dabom]

Non-issue. Pop is definitely a Kawhi homer but I'm sure he knows how important Danny is.

Pop knows how important green is to the spurs. It's just baffling how someone can compare danny and kawhi on defense without him flat out denying any connection.

[ElNono]

Although those guys do do that, he still spends 90% of his time out in the perimeter and still gets the rebound. He just man handles 2 or 3 rebounds out of opponent hands every game.

I'll just agree to disagree... Kawhi spends a lot of time near the rim, helping out Tim, who has needed the help, to be fair...

[BillMc]

How about this for objective:

Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2

Not to sidetrack this interesting debate (and I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm) but how is James Harden #1 in this category? I don't pretend to know the details of how all these advanced stats are calculated, but Harden has a reputation as a terrible defender. Either the public perception under rates Harden, or this stat is a poor reflection of defensive merit. (Or I don't understand Defensive Win Shares! Which is very possible).

But this calculation does show the weaknesses of leaning on any stat if it has "The Beard" as a better defender than Green or Leonard (not to mention Duncan and the other bigs)

[ElNono]

Pop hates danny because he frequents clubs and twitter

that too

[spursfaninla]

How is that any more objective? It's just someone else's stats. These are stats that you don't know (or seem to not know) how they're calculated, so you probably don't really know what they mean. Also, you seem to have just taken the BR stats that make Leonard look better and ignored the ones that made Green look better. How's that for bias?

Also at you taking about Green's PG stats when he played there for 1 percent of his total minutes. Objectivity is understanding that that is a tiny sample size and is not statistically significant.

I'd rather you just keep doing the eye-test, "Pop Says" thing rather than just posting up stats like these.

Fair enough about the PG time comparison. But otherwise your points are just ad hominems.

Someone else who does not have an agenda (unlike you) created advanced status regarding defense and leonard is higher than green on the ones listed.

There was one with green above leonard by a little; box defense.

You did not actually criticize the methodology of these stats, yet we should doubt them because they came to a different conclusion than you did?

Give me a reason to doubt these measures and I will consider it. I already have a reason to doubt yours.

[Chinook]

You're so fail in this argument. Kawhi basically iced game 5 for us with his defense and you can't see it. Stopped a repeat of 2012. Pop said Kawhi is better than green in defense and you can't see it. What now? You're becoming a terrible poster with these bad takes.

Game Five was a blowout. There was nothing about it that needed to be "iced". I can see you talking about Game Six (and would agree with you). Again, though, that thread you quoted as an example of my terrible takes showed why the Thunder lost Game Five -- no one else could hit open shots. Brooks made Westbrook into a facilitator, and Russ set his guys up well; they just let him down. You don't have to take my word on that. You can rewatch the game itself instead of making off-hand rebuttals.

[dabom]

I'll just agree to disagree... Kawhi spends a lot of time near the rim, helping out Tim, who has needed the help, to be fair...

This is the third time I guess we have come to this conclusion. I just want to hear it from you now who the better defender is between kawhi and green.

[spurraider21]

Not to sidetrack this interesting debate (and I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm) but how James Harden #1 in this category? I don't pretend to know the details of how all these advanced stats are calculated, but Harden has a reputation as a terrible defender. Either the public perception under rates Harden, or this stat is a poor reflection of defensive merit. (Or I don't understand Defensive Win Shares! Which is very possible).

But this calculation does show the weaknesses of leaning on any stat if it has Harden as a better defender than Green or Leonard.

defensive rating is very flawed. carlos boozer measured out very well during his years in chicago

[dabom]

Game Five was a blowout. There was nothing about it that needed to be "iced". I can see you talking about Game Six (and would agree with you). Again, though, that thread you quoted as an example of my terrible takes showed why the Thunder lost Game Five -- no one else could hit open shots. Brooks made Westbrook into a facilitator, and Russ set his guys up well; they just let him down. You don't have to take my word on that. You can rewatch the game itself instead of making off-hand rebuttals.

Even the OKC local news said Kawhi shut down westbrook. EVERYONE saw it except a few terrible apples. EVERYONE. You are losing any reputation you had on a sinking ship.

[FkLA]

Except for specific matchups, Kawhi mostly guards SFs, which is an extremely stacked position in the league right now... most of those guys (Lebron, Durant, Melo, George, etc) aren't just shooters, they either drive or postup a lot. On offense, Kawhi is the designated cutter. He's one of the few Spurs that have a green light to go catch offensive boards too (guards have to get back in transition). I'm not trying to create any myth, tbh, I already said Kawhi is an elite rebounder, but there are specific reasons why Danny doesn't rebound more, and while he might not be 'elite' at boarding, he's still a very good rebounder. I'm just pointing that out, I'm not trying to prop any player above another.

Out of the guys you mentioned, Melo is the only one I would say posts up a lot. They all drive but so do the guards Danny defends so not sure how Kawhi has any kind of signifcant edge there.

Kawhi spends a lot more time by the rim. Green hangs out there to but only really as the primary or secondary defender, which means he's usually not set up for boarding. His job as a guard is to leak for transition, and that means he often leaves rebounds to the frontcourt, though he's been attacking the glass this season. Green is actually really good at boxing players out for his teammates. Last night, there were a couple of times he held off Z-Bo so that someone else could get the rebound. That doesn't go into a stat sheet at all.

I'd say it has more to do with Kawhi being a lot more physical and simply having a body that's better suited for rebounding but that's just me.

[ElNono]

This is the third time I guess we have come to this conclusion. I just want to hear it from you now who the better defender is between kawhi and green.

Not trying to be obtuse, but I don't think it's a question that has an easy answer, tbh. If I want one to one defense, especially on quicker/smaller guys, I'll take Green. If I have to guard a bigger guy that posts a lot, would definitely take Kawhi.

This is right at this moment. Going forward, I think Kawhi has the higher ceiling as overall defender, but time will tell.

What's more important is that we can have this conversation when both players are Spurs. It's a luxury the team can have such defensive talent.

[Malik Hairston]

How about this for objective:

Defensive Rating 2014 (BasketBallReference.com)
1. Andrew Bogut-GSW 91.5
2. Tim Duncan-SAS 94.5
3. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 96.2
4. Draymond Green-GSW 96.2
5. Stephen Curry-GSW 97.3
6. Tony Allen-MEM 97.5
7. Danny Green-SAS 97.5


Defensive Win Shares

1. James Harden-HOU 1.5
2. Andrew Bogut-GSW 1.4
3. Draymond Green-GSW 1.4
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 1.3
6. Stephen Curry-GSW 1.3
7. Trevor Ariza-HOU 1.3
8. Marc Gasol-MEM 1.3
9. DeAndre Jordan-LAC 1.3
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.2

The following is from 82games.com. It shows Green's opponent production this year. he is doing well against sg and sf, but notice how pg's are torching him.

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 21.3 .714 .0 28% 6.1 6.1 3.0 .0 .0 30.5 29.0
SG 17.3 .379 2.6 21% 5.5 4.4 2.6 1.0 2.4 14.7 8.0
SF 16.7 .459 3.8 25% 5.2 1.8 2.9 .9 4.1 18.9 10.6

Leonards opponent's production this year. EFG by opposing sf is essentially the same, yet PER allowed is better by Green. In any event, average opponent PER production or lower for Leonard:

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production
Position
FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
SF 16.0 .464 2.2 27% 6.8 4.5 1.5 .6 3.2 16.6 15.0
PF 11.0 .250 8.8 30% 3.3 3.3 1.1 1.1 6.6 12.1 3.3

The opposing PER numbers are actually heavily in Green's favor, tbh..the PG sample size is when Green himself is playing PG, not when he's actually guarding PGs, which has literally been for like 2-3 minutes..

Same with Kawhi at PF, he hasn't spent much time there this season..Kawhi's opposing PER has been pretty average this season, as the numbers show..

[Chinook]

But otherwise your points are just ad hominems.

Someone else who does not have an agenda (unlike you)

I love that you don't understand the irony of that juxtaposition.

There was one with green above leonard by a little; box defense.

Same difference as the difference in DWS, but that didn't seem to stop you. Also there is block+steals/fouls, which you'd have to calculate yourself. The gist of the numbers is that Green's ratio of impact plays to fouls is higher than Leonard's. Green fouls more and doesn't steal the ball as much, but he blocks so many more shots that the overall impact is better.

You did not actually criticize the methodology of these stats,

I have, many times. DRtg overvalues rebounding, which biases it toward front-court players. It's really hard for a guard to have a good defensive rating, especially if he doesn't play on an elite defensive team. By that same token, a player who plays on a great defensive team can have a high DRtg even if he sucks on D, like Carlos Boozer did with the Bulls. DWS is based on DRtg and thusly has the same problems.

Give me a reason to doubt these measures and I will consider it. I already have a reason to doubt yours.

Fancy turn of phrase, but it doesn't mean anything. You have no reason to doubt my numbers other than an ad hominem. I didn't create some fancy formula that's hard to decipher. It was just watching each play and scoring it based on who was responsible for the end result of the play. I get that you don't understand what I did (hence your belief that it's biased toward on-ball defenders), but I was very transparent.

You can rewatch the games and get your own numbers just like I did. They would probably be a little different if you had different scoring criteria. Then we could compare numbers and methods. Instead, you want to look for things that confirm your way of thinking while dismissing contrary evidence due to ad hominems.

[Chinook]

The opposing PER numbers are actually heavily in Green's favor, tbh..the PG sample size is when Green himself is playing PG, not when he's actually guarding PGs, which has literally been for like 2-3 minutes..

Same with Kawhi at PF, he hasn't spent much time there this season..Kawhi's opposing PER has been pretty average this season, as the numbers show..

Not to mention that PER is normalized, so a difference of 7 points or so is actually massive. Even so, 82games has terrible methodology, which I know you already knew.

[SpursFan86]

Defensive rating/defensive win shares are both pretty garbage stats in terms of gauging defensive impact. They're heavily based on the team's overall defense + box score stats like steals/blocks. Bowen was commonly below guys like Parker since he hardly ever got steals or blocks.

Harden ranks so well because Houston has a top 3 defense and he's averaging nearly 2 steals and 1.2 blocks per game. He actually has been better on defense this year, but he's sure as not an elite defender like those stats might show.

[Malik Hairston]

Not to mention that PER is normalized, so a difference of 7 points or so is actually massive. Even so, 82games has terrible methodology, which I know you already knew.

Of course..when I judge defensive metrics(excluding defensive rating and win shares, since they're terrible), I just throw them all into one argument to compare, they're literally all flawed(it's impossible to judge defense without looking at every possible facet)..

82 games's method is extremely flawed, but it's another interesting stat to add to the mix..

[FkLA]

This might not be a popular opinion, but I think Kawhi has quicker feet than Green. I actually don't think Green is quick enough to stay in front of freak athletes like Westbrook...I still remember Westbrook's first step killing Green in Game 6--in OT for example he was just missing, wasn't really anything Green did. If they didn't have Durant I would stick Kawhi on Westbrook instead of Green.

[ElNono]

Out of the guys you mentioned, Melo is the only one I would say posts up a lot. They all drive but so do the guards Danny defends so not sure how Kawhi has any kind of signifcant edge there.

They all post up. Lebron posts up a whole lot, even more than Melo. He was one of the top post players in Miami. George is possibly the guy that struggled the most trying to move his game to the post, but not for lack of trying. But it's academic. Kawhi is a guy that will stick in front of you and meet you at the rim. Danny is a guy that meets you in the perimeter and catch up with you at the rim (swipe/block from behind). The Spurs need both. Some players you can stay in front of, and some players you can't. So it's great that we have both.

[100%duncan]

They all post up. Lebron posts up a whole lot, even more than Melo. He was one of the top post players in Miami. George is possibly the guy that struggled the most trying to move his game to the post, but not for lack of trying. But it's academic. Kawhi is a guy that will stick in front of you and meet you at the rim. Danny is a guy that meets you in the perimeter and catch up with you at the rim (swipe/block from behind). The Spurs need both. Some players you can stay in front of, and some players you can't. So it's great that we have both.

This. They are the main reasons why Spurs fans are confident no matter who the opponent is.

[SpursFan86]

I wish Synergy didn't make their information private. They had a lot of useful information like PPP allowed in different types of situations.

But yeah, basically all defensive metrics are flawed in one way or another. The best way to measure defense is

1) actually watch the guy play and make a concerted effort to watch him on defense

2) look at a wide variety of metrics to see if it backs up what you think you're seeing

[Chinook]

I'd say it has more to do with Kawhi being a lot more physical and simply having a body that's better suited for rebounding but that's just me.

Eh, there are a lot of other factors that play into it. You're right that Kawhi is simply a better rebounder. I don't think anyone can argue that. Leonard deserves his due as the best rebounding SF in the league. But he is a front-court player, and that does put him near the basket a lot, especially when he's playing off the ball. As I said, it's Green's job as a guard to be above the FT line most of the time. That's not true for Leonard. That doesn't mean that Green's rebounding is equal to Kawhi's at all. It does mean that it's not a huge deal to perimeter defense to get boards.

I have little problem with folks saying that Leonard impacts the defensive side of the ball more than Green. I don't think it's fair to say he's better defending on the perimeter because he rebounds more, however.