Bulls: MJ Not only punched Kerr but also ...

[cantthinkofanything]

I already said he was the GOAT. I said relatively clean. MJ's gambling was swept under the rug by most of the media ...mostly only his haters even bring that up. and that except him gambling for hours the night before big games has nothing to do with basketball. My point was that MJ gets credit as a good leader and heck it worked he won ... but if Nique had done teh same exact thing it would of been part of the Nique is selfish not a winner lore. That was my point. My second point was that since some people already try to argue Lebron is mentally weak if he had done the same his haters would spin that as a sign of weakness when for MJ everyone consider it a sign of toughness. I am not saying either side is wrong just that it is interesting the way media spins influences the common sheep fans of the NBA or how it feeds in to the story you already want to see.

Nothing was swept under the rug. That gambling was front page news. But we didn't have the social medial outlets like today. was the same for everybody. In fact, I'd guess that anything Jordan did had a better chance of making it to the public than anyone else BECAUSE he was Jordan. I imagine there are hundreds of athletes, actors, politicians from pre-internet days with plenty of skeletons in the closet. Just the times.

[Killakobe81]

It works when you have a very talented player who is willing to act as a 2nd banana (Pippen, MVPau, Kobe at first), but when things go wrong, they go really wrong (Kobe and Shaq in 04).

Honestly, people pin the 12 Lakers failure on D'antoni (and Buss Jr.), but the situation could be a LOT worse with Jackson at the helm. Imagine how Dwight will react when he gets chewed out by Kobe and Jackson marginalize Dwight any further, Dwight can't even take a girl not responding to his text, he would go into depression under Jackson's style.

I agree. Plus that team was never a legit contender. I didnt think Nash was as finished as he turned out but we all knew Dwight's back was in rehab and Pau was coming off a couple lackluster seasons. Phil would not of saved us. I just expected us to do better than a 8th seed. I thought #3 at best ...#4 at worst.

As for Buss Jr. Again I blame Phil for part of it. He disrespected West (but shame on buss family for allowing it and Dr. Buss was still alive) and Jerry left Jerry Mentored Mitch and I think that disrespect has put a strain on the GM/owner relationship that has never fully healed. I get why no one was fighting for PJ to return except for Jeannie. I doubt even Kobe was fully behind a PJ return ...

[Killakobe81]

Nothing was swept under the rug. That gambling was front page news. But we didn't have the social medial outlets like today. was the same for everybody. In fact, I'd guess that anything Jordan did had a better chance of making it to the public than anyone else BECAUSE he was Jordan. I imagine there are hundreds of athletes, actors, politicians from pre-internet days with plenty of skeletons in the closet. Just the times.

A lot of MJ's stories (negative ones) did not come out despite his massive popularity until after he retired (2nd time). the gambling stuff did happen right before the first retirement. Yes it was front page news then he retired cam back and it was swept under... because everyone wanted him back. Most of the punching stories were not uncovered until after.

Again I dont mean to vilify MJ. He is far from the only great player with a huge ego and compe ion issues. In fact Rotator cuff copied him good and bad and in many ways is worse than MJ cuz he won less and fought (verbal) publicly with team-mates while MJ did his stuff in private (again smart). I still think and the article says the same that I am he got away with stuff that would be harder to today. But I also think even if he played today since he won 6 he would STILL get a pass in most circles.

[ambchang]

I agree. Plus that team was never a legit contender. I didnt think Nash was as finished as he turned out but we all knew Dwight's back was in rehab and Pau was coming off a couple lackluster seasons. Phil would not of saved us. I just expected us to do better than a 8th seed. I thought #3 at least ...

As for Buss Jr. Again I blame Phil for part of it. He disrespected West (but shame on buss family for allowing it and Dr. Buss was still alive) and Jerry left Jerry Mentored Mitch and I think that disrespect has put a strain on the GM/owner relationship that has never fully healed. I get why no one was fighting for PJ to return except for Jeannie. I doubt even Kobe was fully behind a PJ return ...

That team MAY not be a contender that year, but if things fall in the right places, it could potentially be a contender in 12, and will definitely be a contender in 13 when Dwight got his groove back.

The Lakers handled the entire Dwight situation as horribly as they could. That poisonous at ude from Kobe, not communicating with Dwight to see how his body is reacting, not to mention that entire Nash fiasco.

I mean, it's clear that Dwight is as sensitive as that 14 year old girl in Virgin Suicides, so talk to him, text him constantly and assure him that he is needed and loved. It's like treating .... well, a 14 year old girl.

Jackson was a jerk, just a horrible human being who put up this "zen" demeanor without applying any principles of Zen at all. The constant ref baiting, complaints to the media, dividing the locker room, the maniac-level ego.

West is the greatest Laker of all time, not in terms of being the player, but in terms of shaping the entire franchise. He was a great player, no doubt, but he was the architect for some of the greatest run for any franchise in professional sports. People make fun of Buss Jr (and often rightfully so), but not having West beside him is a huge reason the Lakers are devolving into their current turmoil.

[Brazil]

Dwight can't even take a girl not responding to his text, he would go into depression under Jackson's style.

that's why I love ST... you find pearls like that a bit everywhere

[RsxPiimp]

Jordan was his generations KG. he only went after white guys and befriended the toughest bullies of his era (Ewing, chuck and Oakley)

[daslicer]

Jordan was a fake tough guy considering he sucker punched Perdue and that Perdue was held back before he could do anything. Its easy to be tough when you know you can get away with anything. I remember reading a story that involved Jordan and Robert Parish. Supposedly Jordan started talking to Parish during practice and Parish dismissed and waved off Jordan like he was a nobody. Jordan gets angry and says to Parish "I'm going to whoop your ass." Parish calmly responds by saying "Unlike these guys your barking at I have a couple or rings and I'm not enamored with you the way they are." After that confrontation Jordan just walks away angrily.

[cantthinkofanything]

Jordan was a fake tough guy considering he sucker punched Perdue and that Perdue was held back before he could do anything. Its easy to be tough when you know you can get away with anything. I remember reading a story that involved Jordan and Robert Parish. Supposedly Jordan started talking to Parish during practice and Parish dismissed and waved off Jordan like he was a nobody. Jordan gets angry and says to Parish "I'm going to whoop your ass." Parish calmly responds by saying "Unlike these guys your barking at I have a couple or rings and I'm not enamored with you the way they are." After that confrontation Jordan just walks away angrily.

here's he actual quote according to Parish:

In one of his first practices with the Bulls, Parish botched one of the plays and was amused to find Jordan jawing at him just inches from his face.

“I told him, ‘I’m not as enamored with you as these other guys. I’ve got some rings too,’ ” Parish recalled. “At that point he told me, ‘I’m going to kick your ass.’ I took one step closer and said, ‘No, you really aren’t.’ After that he didn’t bother me.”

[UZER]

I agree. Plus that team was never a legit contender. I didnt think Nash was as finished as he turned out but we all knew Dwight's back was in rehab and Pau was coming off a couple lackluster seasons. Phil would not of saved us. I just expected us to do better than a 8th seed. I thought #3 at best ...#4 at worst.

As for Buss Jr. Again I blame Phil for part of it. He disrespected West (but shame on buss family for allowing it and Dr. Buss was still alive) and Jerry left Jerry Mentored Mitch and I think that disrespect has put a strain on the GM/owner relationship that has never fully healed. I get why no one was fighting for PJ to return except for Jeannie. I doubt even Kobe was fully behind a PJ return ...

Phil pulled the rope a dope with that one. Wanted no part of that job, said enough to be interpreted as interested, then acted "severely disappointed" when he wasn't contacted.

He tried the same thing with melo, but melo took the money

Mayweather has taken need from Phil.

[hitmanyr2k]

Jordan was, is and always will be a mentally unstable individual who continuously have to prove that he is the best at everything he does.

The way he treated his high school coach, to the way he treated Barkley and Oakley shows that he is a bully who only pick on people he thought he could pick on.

Kerr punched back btw, Jordan never pulled that on him again.

Cartwright threatened to take both his legs out , Jordan never insulted Cartwright publicly again.

Grant couldn't take it and left for Orlando.
Hopson never achieved his potential playing with Jordan and Pippen.
Kukoc ignored him and continued to be chastised while he was a Bull.

It was a toxic environment, and you know what? It was encouraged by the "Zen" master, who preferred a chaotic environment where he would come in as a good guy so that players would listen to him. It disingenuous, and it only can last so long before players are being marginalized and the team breaks apart.

I agree with most of our points but the parts in bold didn't have to do with Jordan. Horace Grant left the Bulls while Jordan was whiffing at curveballs and he did so because Chicago's management was cheap and low-balled him, in particular Jerry Krause who was a cancer to the team and coaching staff. When Horace missed games during the '94 season he was actually publicly accused by Reinsdorf of faking injury and illness. Later that season the last straw for Grant was when Krause decided to stupidly name PFs he considered better than Horace in an attempt to marginalize his worth. Like Reinsdorf, Krause stated this publicly right before the playoffs started and Grant had enough. They practically pushed Horace out the door and told him not to look back. This is the main reason Grant came back the very next year with the Magic and murdered the Bulls in the '95 playoffs. The Magic players lifting Horace on their shoulders when they eliminated the Bulls was planned as a big you to Jerry Krause and Reinsdorf.

Hopson never achieved his potential playing with Jordan and Pippen because Scottie was just beginning his all-star rise when Hopson was traded to Chicago and to be honest Hopson just wasn't that good lol. Kukoc was Phil's whipping boy long before Jordan came back as well, mainly because of his refusal to fight in the paint and his defense was sub-par.

[DMC]

Elevate rotator cuff? What does he have to do with this? He is not as good as MJ we all know this.. I purposefully left him out of this so we wouldnt get bogged down in that but of course someone else brings him up ... Kobe has done plenty publicly to hurt his image and it's already scarred so I dont think he really applies to this convo. Reporting Mj punched team-mates does little to "elevate" Kobe because most already consider him a ty team-mate. If anything it helps Magic, Lebron, Duncan. Who do not have that rep.

Kobe is one RCH from being done, and after that the MJ comparison LOLs will come collapsing down upon Laker fanbase. In your heart of hearts you know you have to do what you can to diminish MJ's contributions, and you've had over 10 years to get started, odd timing tbh.

[Sean Cagney]

I wondered if he ever tried that with Rodman.

I seriously doubt it. I also know him and Oakley were good friends so he would not try it with him either but if they were not no way he pulls that crap.

[lefty]

Cartwright and Chief scared the ish out of Jordan

Glen Rice too, in 1997, went nose to nose with MJ, and Mike looked scared

[daslicer]

Cartwright and Chief scared the ish out of Jordan

Glen Rice too, in 1997, went nose to nose with MJ, and Mike looked scared

Are you referring to the '98 playoffs when talking about Glen Rice? I remember MJ and him got into it in game 5 of hornets-bulls series.

[daslicer]

Found the Rice-MJ clip. The confrontation happens at 1:32

[UZER]

Found the Rice-MJ clip. The confrontation happens at 1:32

Remember a series ending on a Jordan foul on I think Hersey Hawkins layup attempt. Jordan grabbed his wrist and stopped the layup motion right in front of the official...no call.

This when refs were afraid to call fouls on him.

[daslicer]

Remember a series ending on a Jordan foul on I think Hersey Hawkins layup attempt. Jordan grabbed his wrist and stopped the layup motion right in front of the official...no call.

This when refs were afraid to call fouls on him.

Yup I remember the game it was in. Bulls vs Hornets game 4 in '95. It happens at 4:49

[lefty]

Found the Rice-MJ clip. The confrontation happens at 1:32

Ah you were right its in 98

[Killakobe81]

Kobe is one RCH from being done, and after that the MJ comparison LOLs will come collapsing down upon Laker fanbase. In your heart of hearts you know you have to do what you can to diminish MJ's contributions, and you've had over 10 years to get started, odd timing tbh.

What a en reach ...nothing I post here could diminish MJ you give me much to much power or at least credit me with more ego than I have. I at one time despised Jordan but it had nothing to do with Kobe it was because he eclipsed Magic my all time favorite Laker. but I was a kid then. Knocking down a player to raise one is childish. MJ being greater than Magic doesnt take away from what Magic did same with Kobe or Lebron. they are great. MJ is greater. When MJ came back I couldn't still root for him but I respected him because no one could fill the void he left in the game. but i had matured then.

Kobe has already established his legacy good and bad you really need to let go of this , tbh. In this thread you the only asshole looking for deeper meaning. Yes Amb, of course took a shot at Kobe but he can't help himself. if you need to get it off your chest ...post about him in another thread but what I posted originally has nada to do with rotator cuff ... but you can believe whatever you want.

[poeticism707]

Of course it does happened on my HS steam. I just find the media portrayal of MJ to be interesting. What if Cousins did that? the Jailblazers had Karl's Sonics had plenty of issues similar that went public and those players were pariahs MJ is lauded for it because he won and he played the media like a fiddle. Dude is a genius sociopath tbh ... might be the smartest player ever. Maybe Magic and Lebron had higher hoops IQ and others more business sense but when you add marketing, legacy, using team-mates etc. Jordan is pure genius.

Totally agree.

I've said it a thousand times: if the internet/social media was around during Jordan's tenure, he would be hated and vilified, and he would deserve it.

Also, said a thousand times, Jordan is a million times worse than Kobe.

I wouldn't leave "MJ" alone with my dogs, not to mention relatives/children.

[ambchang]

I agree with most of our points but the parts in bold didn't have to do with Jordan. Horace Grant left the Bulls while Jordan was whiffing at curveballs and he did so because Chicago's management was cheap and low-balled him, in particular Jerry Krause who was a cancer to the team and coaching staff. When Horace missed games during the '94 season he was actually publicly accused by Reinsdorf of faking injury and illness. Later that season the last straw for Grant was when Krause decided to stupidly name PFs he considered better than Horace in an attempt to marginalize his worth. Like Reinsdorf, Krause stated this publicly right before the playoffs started and Grant had enough. They practically pushed Horace out the door and told him not to look back. This is the main reason Grant came back the very next year with the Magic and murdered the Bulls in the '95 playoffs. The Magic players lifting Horace on their shoulders when they eliminated the Bulls was planned as a big you to Jerry Krause and Reinsdorf.

Hopson never achieved his potential playing with Jordan and Pippen because Scottie was just beginning his all-star rise when Hopson was traded to Chicago and to be honest Hopson just wasn't that good lol. Kukoc was Phil's whipping boy long before Jordan came back as well, mainly because of his refusal to fight in the paint and his defense was sub-par.

Oh, Krause definitely had a huge hand in Grant leaving the Bulls, no doubt about it. I would say it was the primary reason as well. That said, Grant always felt like he was being treated as that red-headed stepchild. He was bullied in practice and nobody stood up to him, management refused to extend his contract, low-balled him, didn't treat him with respect, and that ultimately led to him exiting. I am not saying Grant left strictly because of Jordan, but the way Jordan treated him was consistent with how he felt he was disrespected by the organization as a whole.

As for Hopson, he was decent with the Nets and Kings, low efficiency high volume shooter. He could have been a better fit in the late 90s early 00s (ironically when the league started putting in all these perimeter friendly moves because they want to create the next Jordan). He was athletic, had these long arms, but yeah, he was dumb as a rock, make poor decisions, and was mentally weak. That said, Pippen and Jordan incessantly bullied him all year, rumours had it because he plays the same position, and the two just thought he's not worthy because he suck.

As for Kukoc, Pippen and Jordan HATED him because of management, mostly Krause. Krause was going over the top about how great he is and was trying to sign him over on the Bulls, despite the fact that there is quite a bit of overlap in what he and Pippen/Jordan does. If I remember correctly, Jordan and Pippen made a point in Barcelona to show him up, and set out to publicly embarrass him in the Olympics. To make matters worse, Krause gave Kukoc a big deal at the expense of Pippen or something like that. It was just bad.

Again, lots of these issues came down from Krause, but Jordan certainly made it a lot worse.

[da_suns_fan]

MJ was super compe ive but his teammates still liked him off the court.

Steve Kerr jokes about the incident to this day ("my face got in the way of his fist").

I wonder is Smush Parker thinks as fondly about Kobe Bryant.

[da_suns_fan]

Totally agree.

I've said it a thousand times: if the internet/social media was around during Jordan's tenure, he would be hated and vilified, and he would deserve it.

Also, said a thousand times, Jordan is a million times worse than Kobe.

I wouldn't leave "MJ" alone with my dogs, not to mention relatives/children.

Umm...no.

Did Jordan ever throw a teammate under the bus to police? Did Jordan claim crappy teammates cost him additional MVPs? Did Kobe have friendships with superstars on other teams the way Jordan was friends with Magic, Barkley etc?

Jordan was ultra-compe ive. Kobe is a .

[lefty]

Umm...no.

Did Jordan ever throw a teammate under the bus to police? Did Jordan claim crappy teammates cost him additional MVPs? Did Kobe have friendships with superstars on other teams the way Jordan was friends with Magic, Barkley etc?

Jordan was ultra-compe ive. Kobe is a .

lol MJ didnt give a about Barkley

[RsxPiimp]

Umm...no.

Did Jordan ever throw a teammate under the bus to police? Did Jordan claim crappy teammates cost him additional MVPs? Did Kobe have friendships with superstars on other teams the way Jordan was friends with Magic, Barkley etc?

Jordan was ultra-compe ive. Kobe is a .