Spurs history lesson. Spurs were a soft team in 90's that never won in playoffs despite having talent. Duncan arrived in 1998, and also Mario Elie brought a lot of toughness= championship in 1999. Spurs go through drought until Bowen, Parker, and GMan arrive. Spurs win rings in 03,05,07 and also were good enough to win in 04 and 06 but just didn't make quite enough shots in playoffs.
Then Bowen gets old. Spurs still have big 3 and other pieces. They bring in several Bowen replacements but basically go nowhere from 2008-2012. Now they have Leonard and Green and are champions again. Once you put it in perspective. Bowen's importance is clear.
His absolute importance, maybe. But the Spurs have been "good enough to win" for each of the three years Green and Leonard have been starters. Your example does little to show Bowen's importance relative to Green and Leonard. You can also argue that the Spurs have had tougher perimeter assignments nowadays than they did back then. And it's inarguable that the offenses today are superior.
Yeah, people who think that Duncan hasn't fallen off defensively have no perspective. Tim back then was pretty much Current Tim and Splitter combined on defense.If you watched the 07 finals you'd know that it was the spurs team defense not Bowen who stopped lebron. The spurs would pack the paint and throw constant double teams at lebron.
most of the time you see Bruce getting beat here till a prime Duncan or teammate comes over and helps
There's not a more overrated Spur in history than Bowen. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, but if one were building the best All-Spurs team one could, Bowen would be pretty far down on the bench.
Disagree big time but that's your opinion.
To me Avery Johnson is overrated. The spurs were actively trying to get rid of him or replace him for most of his career.
That's true, but I don't know if Johnson is remembered all that fondly, anyway. I don't think anyone has him on their All-Spurs roster.
Man people forget just how good tim was..
He was by far the best defender in the team..
Heck a lot of Bowen's "toughness" had to do with the fact that TD was just behind him a few meters away. It just allowed him to man up and prevent the shot while not worrying too much about the drive. Splitter is an elite defender but kawhi and Green don't get that luxury because of splitter's inconsistent minutes.
lol agandas
I still think Bowen's prime years were too short to lay claim to the best defender le. Bowen was a nobody until the spurs gave him the chance to shoot open 3s. Spurs suddenly winning with Bruce has more to do with Manu and Parker than Bruce.
I think Bruce's style of defense wouldn't even be allowed today. He'd foul out. I think the refs gave him credit as a veteran that Green didn't have the chance to use. So when you call Bowen tougher remember that.
he still is
fallacy. Bowen was still tough when Duncan was out resting games.Heck a lot of Bowen's "toughness" had to do with the fact that TD was just behind him a few meters away. It just allowed him to man up and prevent the shot while not worrying too much about the drive. Splitter is an elite defender but kawhi and Green don't get that luxury because of splitter's inconsistent minutes.
Bowen 5 time ALL NBA DEFENSE
wake me up when our soft wings can hold his jockstrap defensively
Agreed
A player who steals the ball, deflects passes, contests shots, blocks shots, takes rebounds, is playing bad D?
I don't care about stats or the thread's comparison, but steals, along with defensive rebounds and blocks are part of defense, too.
Last edited by wildchild; 02-17-2015 at 04:38 PM.
No. They aren't solid D anymore than threes are solid offense. It depends on the situation. Being a solid perimeter defender isn't simply measured by the number of splash plays you make. In that regard, the stat underrates Bowen (and Green to a lesser extent). It systematically overrates bigs, since they will almost by nature get more rebounds and blocks. That's why using it to explain how Duncan is a far superior defender is ludicrous, since Carlos Boozer sports three sub-100 DRtg seasons.
Lay off the crack pipe. It's killing each and every last one of your brain cells. I could name a couple of overrated players myself but, I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings. That isn't to say they aren't good but, if I were building an all Spurs team, one of them wouldn't even receive an honorable mention.
How I didn't see it coming...
Well, I wouldn't call overrated the perimeter defenders who can do those things.
Are there any that you prefer?
I think you're missing the point, which is that Defensive Rating is not a reliable stat to use to compare the relative defensive skills of different players. Bowen consistently ranked near the bottom of the team in defensive rating during the years when he was always on the All-NBA defensive team.How I didn't see it coming...
Well, I wouldn't call overrated the perimeter defenders who can do those things.
Individual DRTG and DWS are both very poor measures of defensive ability.
Defensive impact is really hard to quantify, but if I had to choose, I'd probably go with DRPM + Synergy stats + eye test.
I said before "I don't care about stats or the thread's comparision". I replied to a post where it would seem steals, blocks, rebounds aren't part of the defense.
That's not what that post said. It said that Drtg was a poor way to compare players because it relied on counting certain boxscore stats.
Basketball isn't like baseball. Statistics will never show the whole picture. A lot of what is happening on the court doesn't show up in the box score. Winning is the proof of greatness.
Bowen had a great way of getting through screens and that really limited teams like thd Suns offense because Nash couldn't get clear.
No, it said this...But rebounds, blocks and steals are part of solid defense. Not all, or main, but part.
If anything, my post criticizing DRtg is line with your usually reasoning. DRtg doesn't show how well you keep a player from scoring, which is the point of perimeter defense. It's completely agnostic to how many baskets you give up, so long as you get enough rebounds, blocks or steals. It favors those plays OVER solid D. Doesn't mean that good defenders don't do both. But perimeter players tend to struggle in those categories in comparison to bigs.
Bowen was never a guy who had the stats of Leonard or Green, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a superior defender (again, there are other reasons why he wasn't). However, a much worse defender in Carlos Boozer can get elite DRtg scores simply because he boarded well. So yes, it favors those stats over solid D, since solid D often doesn't involve those stats (the primary defender is usually out of position to get rebounds and blocks).
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