Reply With Quote
Agreed. And what is ADDED Win Shares? A new one to me. I just know of WS and WS/48.
All stats are flawed, but in any event, the variety of these metrics are much more accurate than per game stats. Don't you find it odd that Kobe is underwhelming (relative to other greats) in pretty much every advanced stat known to man? If we don't consider his rings, can you really, honestly, put Kobe in the top 10 list?Especially sweet when Amb co-signs but then gives is own list. is this metric good or not? If not, why did OP even bother posting? Karl Malone top 5 ...
Metrics better than eye test
Top 10 talent? Sure.
Top 10 team basketball player? I don't think the evidence supports that claim.
The only way Kobe makes the top 10 is if you compare him in a vacuum with players like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, who might not be top ten players if they played in Kobe's era.
Agreed. And what is ADDED Win Shares? A new one to me. I just know of WS and WS/48.
And yes, as I said years ago, one of the biggest mistakes Kobe made is not retiring before new-media became prominent, tbh..
I'm interested in seeing if Kobe ends the season shooting in the high 20%s...tbh
Killa going to cry all year. It's not about "this list". It's about the point the article is making. It's about how the game is looked at now. It's not just this list; many different metrics paint the same picture and that is the point. But Kobe fans already knew that
That justify Karl Malone top 5? and Dirk, David and KG over Timmy? please do share!!!!
Kobe isn't on the top 10 but even if he was, it wouldn't take long before somebody else took him out. So, stop arguing about something is not worth arguing about, tbh.
Take that same article and look at playoff win shares added.Killa going to cry all year
An advanced metric that puts Kobe 8th, Duncan 2nd and MJ 1st.
I can buy that. And you still can t say all advanced metrics point against Kobe when playoff PER and winshares added both do him fine.
I have no issue with metrcis ...my point is like any stat the proponent in any debate on hoops will ALWAYS cherry pick the numbers that fits their argument.
Pelton did the same but at LEASt he admitted that in playoff numbers Kobe's went up and the unworthy chokers fall further down, which makes sense.
It's not about this list, then why post and jump on? Post another thread SEPARATE from this one ... but although a good article that metric at least the regular season one is horse .
So when I poke holes in the OP's argument/article it's NOT about this article?
I agree Kobe is somewhere between 10-15 imo. I can see the justification for 8 or 9 maybe. I personally have him at 12 though. I feel you can't put him above Shaq. Doesn't make since to put him above the guy who carried him to his first 3 les.
GTFO with Durant and Curry lmfao
What
Kobe has 5 rings, two as the undisputed alpha, and three as a sidekick, but he was a MAJOR contributor, Lebron has 2 rings and got bailed the out to get one of them. He isnt ahead of Kobe yet. Needs another, and probably needs 4 to pass Duncan. Especially since Duncan leads him 2-1 head to head.
This tbh, he is like 9 or 10 at best. I have him at 10, he will get bumped.
I don't know much about the WS "ADDED" stat, but Karl Malone is probably near a top 5 all-time regular season player.
Guess what happens in the post-season when we use WS/48:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...header_leaders
He plummets to 82nd all-time.
Also, the stat you buy (total playoff WS is a bad stat since it's ulative. More wins you get, more total win shares you invariably get. WS/48 is the better stat).
No argument outside of "rings" has Kobe ahead of Lebron.
Who is emotional? I find it funny you jumped in on an article that points to an article that Kobe isnt all time top 10 but neither is duncan ...if you do not see the irony in that ...What
Lets take a look at list A:
1. Jordan
2. Duncan
3. LeBron
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Russell
10. West
11. Bird
Or List B The regular season one, Pelton used in his article? that has Malone 4th?!!
Personally Malone being 4th and over Magic bothers me more than Kobe being 15th ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 11-30-2015 at 03:14 PM.
You still don't get the point of what I said.
Still got love for you tho, Killa. Best laker poster on ST
Why because you say so? Wouldnt that artificially favor a player like say Wade if he tapped out got injured after 2006? I dont have an issue with his stat because it's not about judging primes ... I think a legacy argument should be ulative. And I dont even have a problem with Duncan at 2 over Magic, because Magic's career was cut short by HIV. Like you I have just issues with the regular season ranking as teh basis of his argument and the placemnt of KArl Malone. Sure he was a great player but as the same stat shows for playoffs, he is not a top 5 player. Probably a borderline top 10. Also I get that regular season is a larger sample size but when we are talking all-time greats playoffs is more than enough "sample size". Takes 16 wins to get a chip. Most le teams get at least 20-25 playoff games. If a player like CP3 or McGrady is bouncing out in round one, they should be penalized. This stat does a good job of measuring that.
Anyways I dont care to argue this cuz I already have scoffed at it (regular season) and no one has proved why I should not ...
My list is this by positions:
1st team
C Kareem
PF Duncan
SF Lebron (pending one more James Ring if not Bird)
SG Jordan
PG Magic
2nd Team
C Shaq
PF Dirk or KG (Used to say it was KG but IDK ... Dirk is starting to sway me ...)
SF Bird
SG Kobe
PG Isiah (Curry is creeping up though tbh)
Never saw wilt and dont care about ranking them overall much anymore but I did move Duncan over Kobe based on the past 3 years. Maybe he always was ...but that is when my list changed.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 11-30-2015 at 03:18 PM.
I get it. But again I wasnt even directing all my comments at you ... like I said the irony of this thread made me
Off, Kobe
Drew Magary11/30/15 9:53am
The funniest thing about Kobe Bryant’s retirement “announcement” yesterday is that Kobe Bryant was clearly the last person to know that this would be Kobe Bryant’s final season. Honestly, I thought he had announced it already, given that he’s a broken-down old mummy who can no longer play basketball.
But because it’s 2015, and because nothing in 2015 can happen without being branded to within an inch of its life, yesterday was the day Bryant chose to randomly mark the beginning of the formal commemoration of the final stages of the lead-up to the end of his pre-comeback career (or “regulation time”). I assume there’s already a two-part fall finale planned in which Kobe misses a game-tying layup while also breaking his wrist.
Bryant’s comeback came in the form of a poem (so tasteful) posted over atJeterland. Derek Jeter, as you recall, is the poster child for turning an otherwise unremarkable final season into a twisted personal brand rela2nch that no one asked for. Given the deterioration of his abilities and the urgent need for his team to develop its younger talent, Kobe Bryant should retire NOW. Today. He should off in his Ducati and go write thoughtful journal entries or something.
But if he did that, marketers wouldn’t have their required calendar year of lead time to ideate and hold focus groups and produce the perfect, somber, sepia-toned Sprite ad to honor one of the least endearing athletes in modern sports history. Look at this ing piece of direct mail they handed out in LA yesterday:
As someone who used to work in advertising, I can promise you that header font was chosen over the course of eighteen grueling conference calls dating back to 2012. And what of that strange symbol at the bottom? Is it a sign of the OCCULT?! No, of course not. No, that’s a ing logo. Eighteen more conference calls. I’ll let pseudo-mammal Darren Rovell explain:
WARMS THE LES, does it not? So many memories of campaigns past. I remember the first time I took my children to see Kobe on a Nutella label. But wait! There’s a story behind that logo. And by story, I mean “brand iden y clearly written by a 35-year-old copywriter.” Here’s Kobe regurgitating all the proper talking points to the AP:
“Hero and villain, it’s a mixture of both,” Bryant said in the interview with The Associated Press. “People are so complicated. It’s never one thing or the other. It’s always a mixture of both things. Certain moments can define you as one thing. Monday, you may be a villain. Tuesday, you may be a hero. It’s always an up-and-down thing.”
So true. One day, you’re throwing -stained shirts at a police officer. The next day, you’re buying turkeys for starving orphans. Everyone is complicated like that!
These retirement tours have to end. They are endless, boring, contrived, and completely out of step with reality. It’s only November. I’m supposed to give a about Kobe Bryant retiring when he’s got five AWFUL months of urinating on teammates to go? Were the les and MVP awards not enough formal adulation? Kobe Bryant built his entire career copying Michael Jordan’s moves and psychopathy, with NONE of the charm. (Even that stupid poem bites offJordan’s retirement.) Why should I celebrate this nutjob’s willful blindness to reality, with his moron coach aiding and abetting it? If anything, Kobe Bryant deserves to finish out his career on some Siberian outpost, dragging his leprous body parts behind him just so he can deny a teammate an open look at the basket.
I’ve said it before: if you want to retire, retire. This instant. If you’ve already announced the end, then the end has already come. Everything afterward is painful and unnecessary. Steve Spurrier quit on the spot this season, and you know what? It takes balls to quit like a coward. It takes balls to risk scrutiny and finally admit, “You know what? I can’t do this,” and walk away, without pre-planning your own season-long ticker tape parade. We’re going to spend the rest of this season whitewashing Kobe Bryant’s legacy for no good reason. He should go home and leave us all alone forever. It’s what that asshole deserves.
Why the would rings not matter?
Do you have Bill Russell as the GOAT?Why the would rings not matter?
But the ulative WS stat could punish players who had the bad luck of being on bad teams for a few years of their career and/or past players who played when only 8 teams made the playoffs (like in the 80's).
The best thing to do with advanced stats is to take all them into consideration and rank appropriately. Admittedly, Kobe is a tough, tough rank, kind of like the inverse of Chris Paul (who dominates every advanced stat category known but has never been past the 2nd round). Real talk, you can put Kobe at 10 or 30 and both could probably be justified. I think he's in that 2nd tier with KG, Barkley, Dirk, Dr. J, etc. I don't see how that's an insult?
of course they do. Only on spurstalk do they diminish them this much ...Why the would rings not matter?
BTW in the playoff win shares Horry cracks the top 25 (just behind Gino and Hondo) ahead of ... Dr. J, David Robinson and KG ...
On 2nd thought I put dirk as my #2 PF ...
One more interesting note Hakeem is only 15th on the playoff list ... not saying I agree just interesting.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
