OT: Is larry bird the most overrated all time great of all time?

[KL2]

There you go again with that "but the NFL and NBA don't employ the same type of athleticism! So citing Olympic records is irrelevant!" Athleticism is athleticism. If you have the kind of natural athleticism that allows you to run 10 second 100m and jump 40", you'll have/or can have elite lateral movement. And there you also go again with your qualitative observations, "Robinson looked stronger than he was!" Guess who was about the only guy who could defend Shaq 1-on-1 in those days and not get 50 dropped on him? David Robinson. At DeMonkey, Dwight, Marc Gasol, etc being stronger because we live in the magical era of 2015.

The NFL/NBA have very similar types of athleticism and their athletes actually make physical contact with each other. Again, running in a straight line, jumping straight up, or over hurdles not making physical contact at all, these do not really apply to the athleticism you need in the NBA/NFL as a whole.

You're delusional if you think guys are getting by on "natural" athleticism, they worked HARD for their game and bodies. Don't let their at udes fool you, they may act like whiny bags but that doesn't mean they don't train hard. Players like Lebron, Durant, Griffin, Leonard, Curry, Westbrook, Cousins, etc. have all been training since they were just teenagers while Jordan and the whole Bulls team barely started to receive much of the same training as adults.



Gasol isn't a strong guy? He's 6'11 270+lbs:




I bet you probably don't think Matt Bonner is strong either, even though at his 6'10 240+ frame he would've had superior strength and size over most 80's players. You wouldn't be able to stop Bonner in the 80's, he would've lit most teams up with his shooting ability. He could get whatever shot he wanted.

The NFL started to use strength and conditioning coaches in the 70's one of the first being Marv Marinovich, they are much more advanced and have a richer history when it comes to proper nutrition and weightlifting, the NBA didn't start to employ S&C coaches until the 90's after Grover transformed Jordan, Pippen and the whole Bulls team.



What you ignore is that the two leagues are not much bigger than they were 20-30 years ago, and NBA players are once again starting to go leaner.





We've pretty much flatlined with the exception of O-lineman getting bigger and receiver height increasing a bit. No "revolutionary gains" have been made. And yes, they were just as athletic. Again, I appeal to the very HARD evidence of older, "less cutting edge" players adapting to the modern era. Take Jerry Rice or Emmitt smith. They both seamlessly adjusted. Your evidence is spouting weights.

Lol, look at how things stagnated from '70-80. The first strength and conditioning coaches in the NFL were hired in the early to mid 70's with Marinovich being one of the first. He is heavily responsible for the Raider's '76 championship, the same way Grover was heavily responsible for the Bulls' success in the 90's. As more and more teams started to hire S&C coaches you'll notice that by the 80's players weights would start to increase, just like 90's NBA basketball. I'm not sure when NCAA teams started to employ them, that too would have a big impact.

This is just another development of many over the course of NBA history. NBA players have had no problem adjusting to the new eras over their careers. Bird adjusted from the lean 80's to your post-Eastern Bloc trained NBA, and he still lit people up, despite having no back and no legs. And this is when all your Tim Grover clients were at their basketball peaks (Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Drexler). Magic came in at the height of that era, when all your Tim Grover experiments (according to you) "filled out their bodies." And he put up strong numbers from the PF position after a 4 year layoff, with HIV, and no knees. But this is era is magically different, right?



You pretty much have a kind of reverse nostalgia bias toward it because you're young and get tired of all the old school fans telling you how much better basketball was back then. I get that. And I agree with your sentiment (of course basketball is more advanced today) but it's not advanced to the Superhero-level degree (with regard to athleticism and skills) that you think it is. To make such an extraordinary and dumbass claim that Bird (or Magic or Kevin Johnson or any 80's/90's star) would be a 15th man today requires extraordinary evidence. And talking about weights and Willie Cauley-Bust's mobility isn't evidence. My evidence is simply stated: A declining Bird still put great numbers against an NBA that was more athletic and skilled than ever (at that point). You reply to that with moving the goalposts ("t-t-their bodies weren't filled out yet!") I can site Magic's comeback, and you'll move the goalposts again.

Strength and conditioning coaches were not employed by the NBA until the 90's, Jordan/Pippen had barely lifted weights for a year or two at the most when they played against Bird. Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Jordan all worked with Grover in the 90's. Jordan-Pippen didn't reach their prime playing weights of 220+ until the late 90's.

Johnson played 32 games due to the lockout and wasn't even starting, he was a backup. He was playing PF, but he did pack on like 20lbs, and again, the game has changed since the 90's, it's been 20 years since '95 lol. Johnson would be brought out on the perimeter, isolated or switched against, and would be completely exposed.

If you made a reasonable statement, like, "Players are 10-15% better overall today than they were 25 years ago." I wouldn't even argue with you, and you'd still catch your nostalgic fish. But you pretty much worship and overrate today's players like nostalgia fans overrate their heroes.

As for electronic timing, it's error margin can be as high .5 seconds either way, so we don't know to what extent those sprinters were over or under timed. My counter to that is that when electronic timing was introduced, times still progressed at about the same rate, so it looks like those times weren't that off generally.

Athletes as a whole are superior when you factor in the talent pool, the amount of youth development programs, and the access to proper diet, weight lifting etc. as well as actually pay attention to their skill sets in relation to their size. They worked on their bodies to allow them to do what they needed them to.

You have 6'7 290lb guys running the 100m near speeds that come close to previously set Olympic records, this is pretty damn common in the NFL and even the NBA. If a guy is as agile as you, can run as fast as you, can move as fast as you laterally, but has 50lbs on you, you're ed. Walker's 100m time was pretty amazing and rare in his time, but it's pretty common in today's NFL, even guys that don't get drafted.

The game has changed dramatically now that it's so perimeter oriented, I can't stress that enough. Players utilize much more lateral movements with all the ball handlers and lack of hand checking, guys are forced to cover more areas of the floor, team defense has changed quite a bit. The farther out on the court you go, the more mobile your players have to be.

And lol at the talent pool being in the tens of thousands in Bird's era. Millions of Americans did play and pursue basketball back then too. But like I said, NBA stars haven't had trouble adjusting to larger talent pools in the past, like when the NBA became more integrated and the leagues merged, which was a far, far bigger leap in skill/athleticism gap than from the 80's to your Eastern Bloc/Strength and Conditioning era. That's how progress typically works. In the earlier stages, you get big leaps and then progress slows down to a more linear curve. Now if you want to say George Mikan would be a 15th man, that might hold some merit. But post-merger really is the beginning of the modern NBA and there's been no "leaps." Just progress as usual.

The NBA didn't start broadcasting live games on cable until like '84, that's when they marketed the out of their stars, Bird, Johnson, Jordan etc. The NBA was still behind sports like the NFL-MLB-Hockey-Baseball-Tennis-Horse racing-Boxing, etc. it was relatively unpopular in America.

Cable tv put basketball on a world stage in the mid-late 80's, that's when the talent pool started to boom. As tv and cable became more affordable and more common in the US, it was put on for a much bigger audience. That had a ripple effect on the NBA-College basketball-High school bball-youth sports.

Right now there are 5.5 million children playing youth basketball in America honing their games from young ages, receiving private coaching, working on their bodies, honing their skills. That 5.5 million gets filtered down to just 550,000 men's HS basketball players, that 550,000 then gets filtered down to the 4,500 Div. 1 basketball players. That is not counting the international pool, you have players from Australia, Argentina, Brazil, Africa, France, Germany, Lithuania, Russia, China etc.

Players like Manute Bol's son are all over the place, I bet if you saw him playing in the 80's you'd think he was a superstar lol:




Whatever a player is capable of doing is relative to the compe ion around them.

Compare Sabonis and Marjanovic in the Euroleague to each other, keep in mind Marjanovich's compe ion is much better. Can you really say Sabonis is a better player than a guy like Marjanovich? Marjanovich wasn't getting burned by the great Niko Gallis either lol.

[apalisoc_9]

The NFL/NBA have very similar types of athleticism and their athletes actually make physical contact with each other. Again, running in a straight line, jumping straight up, or over hurdles not making physical contact at all, these do not really apply to the athleticism you need in the NBA/NFL as a whole.

You're delusional if you think guys are getting by on "natural" athleticism, they worked HARD for their game and bodies. Don't let their at udes fool you, they may act like whiny bags but that doesn't mean they don't train hard. Players like Lebron, Durant, Griffin, Leonard, Curry, Westbrook, Cousins, etc. have all been training since they were just teenagers while Jordan and the whole Bulls team barely started to receive much of the same training as adults.



Gasol isn't a strong guy? He's 6'11 270+lbs:




I bet you probably don't think Matt Bonner is strong either, even though at his 6'10 240+ frame he would've had superior strength and size over most 80's players. You wouldn't be able to stop Bonner in the 80's, he would've lit most teams up with his shooting ability. He could get whatever shot he wanted.



Lol, look at how things stagnated from '70-80. The first strength and conditioning coaches in the NFL were hired in the early to mid 70's with Marinovich being one of the first. He is heavily responsible for the Raider's '76 championship, the same way Grover was heavily responsible for the Bulls' success in the 90's. As more and more teams started to hire S&C coaches you'll notice that by the 80's players weights would start to increase, just like 90's NBA basketball. I'm not sure when NCAA teams started to employ them, that too would have a big impact.






Strength and conditioning coaches were not employed by the NBA until the 90's, Jordan/Pippen had barely lifted weights for a year or two at the most when they played against Bird. Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Jordan all worked with Grover in the 90's. Jordan-Pippen didn't reach their prime playing weights of 220+ until the late 90's.

Johnson played 32 games due to the lockout and wasn't even starting, he was a backup. He was playing PF, but he did pack on like 20lbs, and again, the game has changed since the 90's, it's been 20 years since '95 lol. Johnson would be brought out on the perimeter, isolated or switched against, and would be completely exposed.



Athletes as a whole are superior when you factor in the talent pool, the amount of youth development programs, and the access to proper diet, weight lifting etc. as well as actually pay attention to their skill sets in relation to their size. They worked on their bodies to allow them to do what they needed them to.

You have 6'7 290lb guys running the 100m near speeds that come close to previously set Olympic records, this is pretty damn common in the NFL and even the NBA. If a guy is as agile as you, can run as fast as you, can move as fast as you laterally, but has 50lbs on you, you're ed. Walker's 100m time was pretty amazing and rare in his time, but it's pretty common in today's NFL, even guys that don't get drafted.

The game has changed dramatically now that it's so perimeter oriented, I can't stress that enough. Players utilize much more lateral movements with all the ball handlers and lack of hand checking, guys are forced to cover more areas of the floor, team defense has changed quite a bit. The farther out on the court you go, the more mobile your players have to be.




The NBA didn't start broadcasting live games on cable until like '84, that's when they marketed the out of their stars, Bird, Johnson, Jordan etc. The NBA was still behind sports like the NFL-MLB-Hockey-Baseball-Tennis-Horse racing-Boxing, etc. it was relatively unpopular in America.

Cable tv put basketball on a world stage in the mid-late 80's, that's when the talent pool started to boom. As tv and cable became more affordable and more common in the US, it was put on for a much bigger audience. That had a ripple effect on the NBA-College basketball-High school bball-youth sports.

Right now there are 5.5 million children playing youth basketball in America honing their games from young ages, receiving private coaching, working on their bodies, honing their skills. That 5.5 million gets filtered down to just 550,000 men's HS basketball players, that 550,000 then gets filtered down to the 4,500 Div. 1 basketball players. That is not counting the international pool, you have players from Australia, Argentina, Brazil, Africa, France, Germany, Lithuania, Russia, China etc.

Players like Manute Bol's son are all over the place, I bet if you saw him playing in the 80's you'd think he was a superstar lol:




Whatever a player is capable of doing is relative to the compe ion around them.

Compare Sabonis and Marjanovic in the Euroleague to each other, keep in mind Marjanovich's compe ion is much better. Can you really say Sabonis is a better player than a guy like Marjanovich? Marjanovich wasn't getting burned by the great Niko Gallis either lol.

Boom...

[spurraider21]

comparing boban to sabonis

[lefty]

Sabonis was better tbh

[lefty]

Sabas had great skills

Youg pre-injuries Sabas could run and dunk like Drob.

The whole package, he would have shat on D-Rob, Hakeem, etc if USSR didn't block the move to Portland tbh

And MJ wouldnt have won

SUre, Marjanovic could have done that

[spurraider21]

washed up sabonis with no knees was a good nba player

[Cry Havoc]

comparing boban to sabonis

Sabonis was a 7'3" with better passing than even Timmy and a complete skillset. Dude would be an all-NBA player in today's game, if not a perennial all-star.

[KL2]

Sabonis was a 7' with better passing than even Timmy. Dude would be an all-NBA player in today's game, if not a perennial all-star.

Watch Marjanovic play in the Euroleague he looked better than Sabonis. Marjanvoic was a gifted passer, an elite post player that could knock down hook shots at will, could knock down jumpers, and he's doing it against better compe ion.

3:40




If Boban played in the 80's people would be saying he's unstoppable, passing on par with Duncan lol, you can't block those hook shots!

[KL2]

The great Niko Gallis, Jordan of Europe dominated Sabonis.




This 5th grade girl has better handles than most 80's players tbh:

[Cry Havoc]

Watch Marjanovic play in the Euroleague he looked better than Sabonis. Marjanvoic was a gifted passer, an elite post player that could knock down hook shots at will, could knock down jumpers, and he's doing it against better compe ion.

3:50




If Boban played in the 80's people would be saying he's unstoppable, passing on par with Duncan lol, you can't block those hook shots!

You... do realize that Sabonis played in the late 90s? This isn't some guy from the early 80s you're ripping on, he played into the post-Jordan era and would be even more lethal in today's pace and space offense.

Boban can't even catch a ing pass for us right now. He has hands reminiscent of Nazr Mohammed.

[apalisoc_9]

The great Niko Gallis, Jordan of Europe dominated Sabonis.




This 5th grade girl has better handles than most 80's players tbh:

Ive seen 3rd grader girls with better handles than an 80s player

[Cry Havoc]

The great Niko Gallis, Jordan of Europe dominated Sabonis.




This 5th grade girl has better handles than most 80's players tbh:

TIL that I could have played in the NBA in the 80s. Who knew?

[Kawhitstorm]

[Cry Havoc]

Jackson just wouldn't be able to survive in today's NFL. That mediocre 4.10 40 would just get him tore up by defensive ends these days who run in the high 3.90s.

[apalisoc_9]

0.5 in sports could be the difference between making it to the pros or not

[KL2]

You... do realize that Sabonis played in the late 90s? This isn't some guy from the early 80s you're ripping on, he played into the post-Jordan era and would be even more lethal in today's pace and space offense.

Boban can't even catch a ing pass for us right now. He has hands reminiscent of Nazr Mohammed.

Boban is being harassed by extremely powerful, explosive, and agile players, his shot can be blocked at any time, he's under a ton of pressure out there. If he was playing in the Euroleague he'd still be dominating.

What a player is capable of doing is relative to their compe ion. You put a player like Bonner at 240+ in the 80's-early 90's, he's going to be one of the largest players in the league, his post game, shooting, 3 ball would all be unstoppable because his size would be be elite for that time.

The 10's are currently catching up to the 00's like the 00's had to catch up with the 90's, the future is bright, it takes time for the new generation to surpass the old, players take years to get into their primes and develop physically. Leonard-Curry-Porzingis-Wiggins-Giannis-Cousins-Drummond-Whiteside-Davis-Lillard, etc. there are a ton of future stars in this league still developing.

[KL2]

The NFL and NCAA football employed strength and conditioning coaches far earlier than the NBA in the 70's, the NBA didn't start until the 90's, Jordan was the godfather, they were in on it way before the NBA. Comparing early early 70's NFL players to mid 80's-90's NFL players is a better comparison.

[Cry Havoc]

Bonner

his post game

I ing lol'ed.

You've already been ethered in this thread, so now I assume you just have to be trolling and thus it's not worth it to respond any longer.

[Kawhitstorm]

Jackson just wouldn't be able to survive in today's NFL. That mediocre 4.10 40 would just get him tore up by defensive ends these days who run in the high 3.90s.

Tell that to Adrian Peterson who has a 4.40 & is same size as Bo.

[apalisoc_9]

Bonner would be a superstar in the 80s

[KL2]

I ing lol'ed.

You've already been ethered in this thread, so now I assume you just have to be trolling and thus it's not worth it to respond any longer.

240lbs puts Bonner in elite territory weight wise in the 80's, players would't be able to handle his size lmao.

I like how you ignored the great Nikos Gallis ting on Sabonis, Marjanovich looked much better in against even better international compe ion lmfao.

[Cry Havoc]

Tell that to Adrian Peterson who has a 4.40 & is same size as Bo.

That was sarcasm. Bo has one of the 3 fastest 40 times in NFL history.

[Kawhitstorm]

The NFL and NCAA football employed strength and conditioning coaches far earlier than the NBA in the 70's, the NBA didn't start until the 90's, Jordan was the godfather, they were in on it way before the NBA. Comparing early early 70's NFL players to mid 80's-90's NFL players is a better comparison.

Manu/Tony barely lift (same with Tim for the most part) & they were all All-NBA players in the 21st century.

[KL2]

Manu/Tony barely lift (same with Tim for the most part) & they were all All-NBA players in the 21st century.

They've all had their careers extended with the help of strength and conditioning coaches which weren't employed until Jordan and the Bulls first utilized them and destroyed the league, the Spurs' medical staff have done a great job keeping our guys healthy. In the 80's strength and conditioning coaches were almost nonexistent aside of like 1, players were pretty much on their own when it came to nutrition and weight lifting.

Every single player now has access to private coaching unlike before, it sort of just falls into your lap now unlike before where players had do everything on their own. Some guys gain weight, others drop it, Duncan is a great example of a player late in his career losing weight to help his knees. Even Love dropped down from 270lbs to the 240's, Drummond was like 300lbs in college, dropped down to 280 in the pros, Marc Gasol was like 300+ in Europe and dropped down to 270 in the pros.

How many times have you ever heard of a 80s or 90s player shedding weight like that? Players are always changing their weights, whatever works best for them, Gay got up to 240+ to play small ball PF, dropped back down to the 230+ range to play SF with the Kings.

[140]

BREAKING: traning methods and sports nutrition have evolved since the 80's