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  1. #376
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    LOL... Dismissive per the par... How do you want me to prove to you something that I accept on grounds of faith...? You throw out the content of the scriptures that support my belief system... You throw out inconsistencies in your own belief structure. You attribute 'unsubstantiated' motives and intent to GOD, to cast judgement over Him based strictly on your fabricated framework. You do so conveniently I would add. Fact of the matter is I believe the core message of scripture and you don't... No amount of sarcasm, facetiousness, ridicule, derision, disdain or scorn on your part will sway me from my position - frankly it's foolish that you keep insisting on using those tactics when it hasn't budged me in the slightest over the past 5-7 years in which you've attacked my position.
    You're like that college kid from the God's Not Dead movie.

  2. #377
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    That sure showed me!

    What should not be lost on anyone, particularly those that say I try to 'talk smart' or similar notions, when I call someone pedantic that should be meaningful to you.

    That is not grammar police, that is style police. Your argument style is godawful and non persuasive for a message board.

    Try keeping it to one or two sentences per paragraph like a newspaper article and less of the walls of text. These short one liners of drivel are better as people will read that but it exposes you for the asshat.

    Good job!
    And still you've refuted nothing, you've not backed up your allegations that Constantine and his cronies reinvented Christianity in the 4th century. 11 pages after your accusation an still not a shred of proof - just you dancing around semantics of me not accepting your statements alone as validation. And of course folks aren't reading my arguments, it's convenient for them to continue in the bliss of their own position.

    Style police. geesh that's even worse than grammar police.

    Let's end this:

    You said, the NT was created in the 4th century. You picked and chose your context conveniently to suit your narrative - but provided no proof.

    I pointed out that older manuscripts still convey the gospel story as we have it today - in summary that, JESUS was the Son of GOD who atoned the rest of humanity by dying on the cross.

    You haven't addressed that head on. You keep wanting to dismiss the fact that those manuscripts do exist because they unravel the meat of your alternative narrative.

    And now you're stuck in the mud trying to convince people that somehow that wasn't your argument at all - so you've now resorted to name-calling. "asshat" hmmm... childish.

  3. #378
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    And of course folks aren't reading my arguments, it's convenient for them to continue in the bliss of their own position.
    Why do you continue to position yourself as the victim? Do you think it advances your argument?

  4. #379
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Why do you continue to position yourself as the victim? Do you think it advances your argument?
    Not the victim. My position isn't a popular one.

    Simply go back and count how many posters have supported anything I've said. None. Perhaps maybe just mingus (on a point here or there)

    Now go back and count how many have thrown profanities my way. Eleven.

    And that's just in this thread. How can you coyly ignore the mob mentality against my political forum persona... and try to twist it into something fair and balanced? ummm ok.

  5. #380
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    Not the victim. My position isn't a popular one.

    Simply go back and count how many posters have supported anything I've said. None. Perhaps maybe just mingus (on a point here or there)

    Now go back and count how many have thrown profanities my way. Eleven.

    And that's just in this thread. How can you coyly ignore the mob mentality against my political forum persona... and try to twist it into something fair and balanced? ummm ok.
    So few people on the forum support your position. That doesn't mean your arguments aren't being read, yet you throw that out there, the typical woe is me persecuted Christian bit. It's unseemly.

    Maybe it's not that your arguments are not being read, maybe they're not convincing.

  6. #381
    Believe.
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    nailing himself up right next to Jesus.

    I like the I know you are but what I am routine. His argument against me basically boils down to that I cannot prove that the 1st 3 e eniel councils didn't put the Bible together and add and exclude on whim. Then he prattles on about scripture justifications for various straw men.

    He has demonstrated quite clearly that he cannot follow my arguments as I point out in my last post. That is why I quit responding to him. Wasting time with idiots and fools is time better spent.

  7. #382
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    Not the victim. My position isn't a popular one.

    Simply go back and count how many posters have supported anything I've said. None. Perhaps maybe just mingus (on a point here or there)

    Now go back and count how many have thrown profanities my way. Eleven.

    And that's just in this thread. How can you coyly ignore the mob mentality against my political forum persona... and try to twist it into something fair and balanced? ummm ok.
    From my perpespctive, a couple of the things I wanted sufficient answers for weren't given sufficient answers. Where our previous convo left off was re prophecies. I don't see specificity in them. I see vagueness. The one that isn't vague (re death via piercing of hands or whatever--I don't know when it was written). Basically a prophecy is not a prophecy if it's "rigged". I need sufficient reason to believe they weren't rigged, so I need specificity and I need accurate dates of when what was written.

    At the start of the thread you gave personal experience of witnessing exorcism as support for your belief. It makes sense that it would support your belief. Not mine tho, no more than personal experience of Muslim encountering Mohammed or something would register anything for you.

  8. #383
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I can't believe you would insist on referencing your previous analogy... I didn't give it any weight because it's plainly 'apples and oranges'. There is a mountain of evidence [unquestionable proof] that point to the nature of the Smurfs movie as a fictional work. No one, except maybe toddlers and small children believe the content of movies is real. You all have yet to provide the proof that substantiates your claims that the gospel message is fiction.

    It's yet another semantical argument to suggest just because we know Neil Patrick Harris is a real person, that his persona as Patrick in the Smurfs movies is also real. The definition of 'real' is drastically different provided the context of what Hollywood produces.
    All mythology is presented as real.

    If you had asked Christians as little as five centuries ago where heaven is, they would say it is in the sky, in the clouds. was deep under the ground.

    Thor cast thunder and his hammer would strike the earth.

    Zues would throw thunder from Mount Olympus.

    Centuries later, we know there is nothing but magma under our feet, and can fly up to the clouds to see for ourselves what is actually there. Myth has been in retreat like this for as long as we have asked "why?"

    I merely use the Smurf movie as a convenient example. A better analogy would be to take other real people in the ancient world, or even the modern world, for that matter, and know that all sorts of stories spring up around them. There are whole cottage industries devoted to sifting through the fact of Abraham Lincoln's life and what is attributed to him.

    It is in our nature to make up stories. Humans would feel the need to make a book, and talk about a book, based on an idea. Something that creates a universe... would not have such a paltry constraint.

  9. #384
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Torture exists because of sin.
    exists due to the consequences of sin
    Torture is evil
    is an eternal separation from GOD
    If exists, THEN it is the result of sinful choices.

    Your logic implies GOD is the torturer.

    JUSTICE and HOLINESS set the rules, two aspects of GOD's PERFECT character.

    "We want all of the freedoms that come with choice, but none of the consequences..."

    If the power of choice to choose GOD has eternal consequence, so THEN does the power of choice to reject GOD.

    Biblically speaking those that reject GOD do so on their own terms.

    IF you reject HIM, which you are clearly doing... Man up. Face the consequences of said choice. Don't go whining that somehow GOD was unjust and unfair with you. IT's YOUR CHOICE and YOUR CHOICE alone.
    1) How do you know God is perfect?

    2) If God is perfect, God has chosen not to make decent arguments for himself or to present some better proof than a book. It would know what it would take to convince me, and has chosen not to do that. Some people who like to talk about "God's plan" would say that is a feature of that mysterious roadmap to the universe.

    God revealed himself to all sorts of people. First hand knowledge doesn't take away free will.

    On the other hand, something that doesn't exist... can't reveal itself. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but an absence of evidence for existence does support the theory of non-existence.

    Choice works both ways.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 01-18-2016 at 11:10 AM.

  10. #385
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    To prove that a written work written 20 centuries ago is not a work of fiction... when it isn't written as such...?

    No one here is saying YOU or RG or Fuzzy has to believe the gospel content.

    But you all are really the only ones trying to suggest that it is a fictional work without providing one single shred of evidence. Just assertions... "someone, hundreds of years removed, undeniably altered the content..." NO PROOF.
    Again, you fail to understand the burden of proof here.
    5 Sacred texts of various religions
    5.1 Adidam
    5.2 Aetherius Society
    5.3 Ásatrú
    5.4 Atenism
    5.5 Ayyavazhi
    5.6 Aztec religion
    5.7 Bahá'í Faith
    5.8 Bön
    5.9 Buddhism
    5.10 Caodaism
    5.11 Cheondoism
    5.12 Christianity
    5.13 Confucianism
    5.14 Discordianism
    5.15 Druidism
    5.16 Druze
    5.17 Ancient Egyptian religion
    5.18 Etruscan religion
    5.19 Ancient Greece
    5.20 Hermeticism
    5.21 Hinduism
    5.22 Islam
    5.23 Jainism
    5.24 Judaism
    5.25 Konkokyo
    5.26 Mandaeanism
    5.27 Manichaeism
    5.28 Maya religion
    5.29 Meher Baba
    5.30 Native American Church
    5.31 New Age religions
    5.32 Orphism
    5.33 Raëlism
    5.34 Rastafari movement
    5.35 Ravidassia
    5.36 Samaritanism
    5.37 Satanism
    5.38 Science of Mind
    5.39 Scientology
    5.40 Shinto
    5.41 Sikhism
    5.42 Spiritism
    5.43 Sumerian
    5.44 Swedenborgianism
    5.45 Taoism
    5.46 Tenrikyo
    5.47 Thelema
    5.48 Unarius Academy of Science
    5.49 Unification Church
    5.50 Urantianism
    5.51 Wicca
    5.52 Yârsân
    5.53 Yazidi
    5.54 Yorùbá
    5.55 Zoroastrianism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text

    Each of these was written and presented as the truth.

    The burden of proof on the Bible is the same as that of Dianetics.

    Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health (often abbreviated as DMSMH) is a book by L. Ron Hubbard about Dianetics, a system of psychotherapy he developed from a combination of personal experience, basic principles of Eastern philosophy, and the work of psychoanalysts such as Freud.[1] The book is a canonical text of Scientology.[2] It is colloquially referred to as Book One.[3] The book launched the movement, which later defined itself as a religion, in 1950. As of 2013, New Era Publications, the international publishing company of Hubbard's works, sells this book in English and in fifty other languages.

    In this best-selling book,[4][5] Hubbard wrote that he had isolated the "dynamic principle of existence," which he states as "Survive," and presents his description of the human mind. He identifies the source of "human aberration" as the "reactive mind," a normally hidden but always conscious area of the mind, and certain traumatic memories ("engrams") stored in it. Dianetics describes counselling (or "auditing") techniques which Hubbard claimed would get rid of engrams and bring major therapeutic benefits.
    Unlike the Bible, we actually know who wrote Dianetics, and we can read it in its original language.

    How then, do we tell which claim of "truth" is true, since so many of them are mutually exclusive?
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 01-18-2016 at 09:29 AM.

  11. #386
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    From my perpespctive, a couple of the things I wanted sufficient answers for weren't given sufficient answers. Where our previous convo left off was re prophecies. I don't see specificity in them. I see vagueness. The one that isn't vague (re death via piercing of hands or whatever--I don't know when it was written). Basically a prophecy is not a prophecy if it's "rigged". I need sufficient reason to believe they weren't rigged, so I need specificity and I need accurate dates of when what was written.

    At the start of the thread you gave personal experience of witnessing exorcism as support for your belief. It makes sense that it would support your belief. Not mine tho, no more than personal experience of Muslim encountering Mohammed or something would register anything for you.
    Exorcism! Driving Out the Nonsense
    Belief in demonic possession is getting a new propaganda boost. Not only has the 1973 horror movie The Exorcist been re-released, but the “true story” that inspired it is chronicled in a reissued book and a made-for-TV movie, both led Possessed (Allen 2000). However, a year-long investigation by a Maryland writer (Opsasnik 2000), together with my own analysis of events chronicled in the exorcising priest’s diary, belie the claim that a teenage boy was possessed by Satan in 1949.
    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/exorci..._the_nonsense/

    The human brain is remarkably, and tragically susceptible to suggestion.

    Belief in spirit possession flourishes in times and places where there is ignorance about mental states. Citing biblical examples, the medieval Church taught that demons were able to take control of an individual, and by the sixteenth century demonic behavior had become relatively stereotypical. It manifested itself by convulsions, prodigious strength, insensitivity to pain, temporary blindness or deafness, clairvoyance, and other abnormal characteristics. Some early notions of possession may have been fomented by three brain disorders: epilepsy, migraine, and Tourette’s syndrome (Beyerstein 1988). Psychiatric historians have long attributed demonic manifestations to such aberrant mental conditions as schizophrenia and hysteria, noting that-as mental illness began to be recognized as such after the seventeenth century-there was a consequent decline in demonic supers ions (Baker 1992, 192). In 1999 the Vatican did update its 1614 guidelines for expelling demons, urging exorcists to avoid mistaking psychiatric illness for possession ("Vatican” 1999).

    In many cases, however, supposed demonic possession can be a learned role that fulfills certain important functions for those claiming it. In his book Hidden Memories: Voices and Visions from Within, psychologist Robert A. Baker (1992) notes that possession was sometimes feigned by nuns to act out sexual frustrations, protest restrictions, escape unpleasant duties, attract attention and sympathy, and fulfill other useful functions.

    Many devout claimants of stigmata, inedia, and other powers, have also exhibited alleged demonic possession. For example, at Loudon, France, a prioress, Sister Jeanne des Anges (1602-1665), was part of a contagious outbreak of writhing, convulsing nuns. Jeanne herself exhibited stigmatic designs and lettering on her skin. A bloody cross “appeared” on her forehead, and the names of Jesus, Mary, and others were found on her hand-always clustered on her left hand, just as expected if a right-handed person were marking them. She went on tour as a “walking relic” and was exhibited in Paris to credulous thousands. There were a few skeptics, but Cardinal Richelieu rejected having Jeanne tested by having her hand enclosed in a sealed glove. He felt that would amount to testing God (Nickell 1998, 230-231). Interestingly enough, while I was researching and writing this article I was called to southern Ontario on a case of dubious possession that also involved stigmata.

    Possession can be childishly simple to fake. For example, an exorcism broadcast by ABC’s 20/20 in 1991 featured a sixteen-year-old girl who, her family claimed, was possessed by ten separate demonic en ies. However, to skeptics her alleged possession seemed to be indistinguishable from poor acting. She even stole glances at the camera before affecting convulsions and other "demonic” behavior (Nickell 1998).

    Of course a person with a strong impulse to feign diabolic possession may indeed be mentally disturbed. Although the teenager in the 20/20 episode reportedly improved after the exorcism, it was also pointed out that she continued “on medication” ("Exorcism” 1991). To add to the complexity, the revised Vatican guidelines also urge, appropriately, against believing a person is possessed who is merely “the victim of one’s own imagination” ("Vatican” 1999).

    With less modern enlightenment, however, the guidelines also reflect Pope John Paul II’s efforts to convince doubters that the devil actually exists. In various homilies John Paul has denounced Satan as a “cosmic liar and murderer.” A Vatican official who presented the revised rite stated, “The existence of the devil isn't an opinion, something to take or leave as you wish. Anyone who says he doesn't exist wouldn't have the fullness of the Catholic faith” ("Vatican” 1999).

    Unchallenged by the new exorcism guidelines is the acceptance of such alleged signs of possession as demonstrating supernormal physical force and speaking in unknown tongues. In the case broadcast by 20/20, the teenage girl did exhibit "tongues” (known as glossolalia [Nickell 1998, 103-109]), but it was unimpressive; she merely chanted: “Sanka dali. Booga, booga.” She did struggle against the restraining clerics, one of whom claimed that, had she not been held down, she would have been levitating! At that point a group of magicians, psychologists, and other skeptics with whom I was watching the video gleefully encouraged, “Let her go! Let her go!” (Nickell 1995)
    Show me a levitating person on camera with some scientific proof of levitation without physical support, and I might start believing it.

    Exorcism is simply another thing mysterious to ordinary life, but not overly unique, nor supernatural.

  12. #387
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    IF you reject HIM, which you are clearly doing... Man up. Face the consequences of said choice. Don't go whining that somehow GOD was unjust and unfair with you. IT's YOUR CHOICE and YOUR CHOICE alone.
    What choices did Bible God have to make when it was designing the universe?



    "Perhaps this is what it looked like when Yahweh was deciding upon the details of his creation."

    A serious question, which I will guess that you will avoid answering in any honest way.

  13. #388
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    "IF you reject HIM...Face the consequences"

    typical brainwashing by ANY group.

    Manichean.

    you're either with us, or against us.

    If you're against us, you're an enemy, and/or you're going to and/or you're BAD, and/or we kill you and/or, etc, etc.

    simplistic

  14. #389
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    nailing himself up right next to Jesus.

    I like the I know you are but what I am routine. His argument against me basically boils down to that I cannot prove that the 1st 3 e eniel councils didn't put the Bible together and add and exclude on whim.
    Should it have taken you 11 pages to actually admit you can't prove your core allegation...?

    Then he prattles on about scripture justifications for various straw men.
    Scripture provides the basis for my beliefs. You don't have to believe any of it nor am I stating it as truth (even if I believe it is TRUTH). It simply provides the context for why I believe what I believe. Geesh... You all get all bent out of shape at the mere reference to scriptural passages - when all they do is provide the context for my own position.

    He has demonstrated quite clearly that he cannot follow my arguments as I point out in my last post. That is why I quit responding to him. Wasting time with idiots and fools is time better spent.
    Perhaps because you kept changing your position to deflect. A position which you just subtly admitted but are now drastically downplaying in hopes that no one will know any better.

    Your allegations are not based on the reservations of 1st century writings or the such. They're based on modern agendas trying to discredit the gospel content.

  15. #390
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    So few people on the forum support your position. That doesn't mean your arguments aren't being read, yet you throw that out there, the typical woe is me persecuted Christian bit. It's unseemly.

    Maybe it's not that your arguments are not being read, maybe they're not convincing.
    "woe is me..."

    More like, I'm stuck having to address multiple points and cannot do so in a timely fashion. The other posters THEN get all pushy, "answer my question damn it!"

    So on top of having to deal with the derision, NO ONE HERE understands I can only answer so much. Everyone else just piles it on. Your detracting posts for example... don't help - since I have to address them too.

    AND yes, I can tell when they aren't being read simply because they gloss over the answers I've already provided.

  16. #391
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    1) How do you know God is perfect?

    2) If God is perfect, God has chosen not to make decent arguments for himself or to present some better proof than a book. It would know what it would take to convince me, and has chosen not to do that. Some people who like to talk about "God's plan" would say that is a feature of that mysterious roadmap to the universe.

    God revealed himself to all sorts of people. First hand knowledge doesn't take away free will.

    On the other hand, something that doesn't exist... can't reveal itself. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but an absence of evidence for existence does support the theory of non-existence.

    Choice works both ways.
    GOD revealed His grandeur through the marvel of creation itself except you, and folks like you would rather believe that it arose "out of nothingness..."

    Romans 1:18-22 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.

    Romans 1:28-32 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[b] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


    Not that you believe any of that anyways. But if GOD wants us to come to HIM on grounds of faith, revealing Himself overtly kind of negates that.

  17. #392
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/exorci..._the_nonsense/

    The human brain is remarkably, and tragically susceptible to suggestion.



    Show me a levitating person on camera with some scientific proof of levitation without physical support, and I might start believing it.

    Exorcism is simply another thing mysterious to ordinary life, but not overly unique, nor supernatural.
    I personally can't say with certainty that there's not any merit to demonic possession, because I've never witnessed one and I can't just dismiss claims outright, based on the (small IMO) possibility that I'm ignorant. That said, all the cases that I've read up on about demonic possession have, as the examples in the article have as well, been pretty clearly debunked. It doesn't help those that want to convince others of what they've been (uniquely) witness to, that there's a consistent pattern of either lying/trickery and/or ignorance in the form of religious confirmation bias involved in all of the prior cases making such claims. Given the precedent, it's hard not chalk up claims of by others being witness to demonic possession of being dubious at best.

    What I don't understand is the arragonce and hypocrisy one has to have in order to EXPECT others to believe their claims, when I'm sure they'd be just as dismissive of similar claims made by other people who belong to different faiths.

    What I believe is this: believe what you believe in terms of deamons, possessions, poltergeist etc., but don't arragontly expect others to follow suit just because you say it's true.

  18. #393
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I personally can't say with certainty that there's not any merit to demonic possession, because I've never witnessed one and I can't just dismiss claims outright, based on the (small IMO) possibility that I'm ignorant. That said, all the cases that I've read up on about demonic possession have, as the examples in the article have as well, been pretty clearly debunked. It doesn't help those that want to convince others of what they've been (uniquely) witness to, that there's a consistent pattern of either lying/trickery and/or ignorance in the form of religious confirmation bias involved in all of the prior cases making such claims. Given the precedent, it's hard not chalk up claims of by others being witness to demonic possession of being dubious at best.

    What I don't understand is the arragonce and hypocrisy one has to have in order to EXPECT others to believe their claims, when I'm sure they'd be just as dismissive of similar claims made by other people who belong to different faiths.

    What I believe is this: believe what you believe in terms of deamons, possessions, poltergeist etc., but don't arragontly expect others to follow suit just because you say it's true.
    What one finds, when one digs, is a lot of things that start looking a whole lot less supernatural.

    Not every unusual thing will ever be explained, but a lot of people will fit their own ideas into the box of "we don't know" because it conforms to their pre-existing ideas. "demons" doesn't get to be the default answer in such cases, until you can prove with some testable, reproducible regularity they exist.

    If something affects our material universe, it can be measured and tested. Otherwise, it doesn't help us understand our universe.

  19. #394
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    "woe is me..."

    More like, I'm stuck having to address multiple points and cannot do so in a timely fashion. The other posters THEN get all pushy, "answer my question damn it!"

    So on top of having to deal with the derision, NO ONE HERE understands I can only answer so much. Everyone else just piles it on. Your detracting posts for example... don't help - since I have to address them too.

    AND yes, I can tell when they aren't being read simply because they gloss over the answers I've already provided.
    FWIW, that is why I try to keep it short and bite size. I do give you some props for trying to follow 3 pr 4 dialogs.

  20. #395
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    From my perpespctive, a couple of the things I wanted sufficient answers for weren't given sufficient answers. Where our previous convo left off was re prophecies. I don't see specificity in them. I see vagueness. The one that isn't vague (re death via piercing of hands or whatever--I don't know when it was written). Basically a prophecy is not a prophecy if it's "rigged". I need sufficient reason to believe they weren't rigged, so I need specificity and I need accurate dates of when what was written.
    Psalm 22 was written by King David. Several centuries before JESUS' timeline (or about 1,000 years prior). With the oldest known copies of it found in Dead Sea Scrolls that pre-date Jesus' timeline as well by over a century.

    As for the "piercing" translation, I'm not a Hebrew scholar:

    http://www.hadavar.org/critical-issu...xt/psalm-2216/

    “Actually, the Septuagint, the oldest existing Jewish translation of the Tanakh, was the first to translate the Hebrew as “they pierced my hands and feet” (using the verb oruxan in Greek), followed by the Syriac Pe ta version two or three centuries later (rendering with baz’u). Not only so, but the oldest Hebrew copy of the Psalms we possess (from the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating to the century before Yeshua) reads the verb in this verse as ka’aru (not ka’ari, “like a lion”),[8] a reading also found in about a dozen medieval Masoretic manuscripts-recognized as the authoritative texts in traditional Jewish thought-where instead of ka’ari (found in almost all other Masoretic manuscripts) the texts say either ka’aru or karu.[9] (Hebrew scholars believe this comes from a root meaning “to dig out” or “to bore through.”)

    So, the oldest Jewish translation (The Septuagint) translates “they pierced”;
    the oldest Jewish manuscript (from the Dead Sea Scrolls) reads ka’aru, not ka’ari;
    and several Masoretic manuscripts read ka’aru or karu rather than ka’ari.

    This is not a Christian fabrication.”[10]
    At the start of the thread you gave personal experience of witnessing exorcism as support for your belief. It makes sense that it would support your belief. Not mine tho, no more than personal experience of Muslim encountering Mohammed or something would register anything for you.
    Like I said, it can't be used as proof for anyone other than myself. But I was there, I definitely know what I saw, heard and felt.

  21. #396
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    SMURFS revealed His grandeur through the marvel of creation itself except you, and folks like you would rather believe that it arose "out of nothingness..."

    Romans 1:18-22 18 For the wrath of Smurfs is revealed from heaven against all unSmurfsliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of Smurfs is manifest in them, for Smurfs has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Smurfshead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew Smurfs, they did not glorify Them as Smurfs, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.

    Romans 1:28-32 28 And even as they did not like to retain Smurfs in their knowledge, Smurfs gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of Smurfs, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[b] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of Smurfs, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

    Not that you believe any of that anyways. But if SMURFS wants us to come to THEM on grounds of faith, revealing Themself overtly kind of negates that.
    The Dianetics guy said it was written into the fabric of the universe too, just waiting for us to discover. You can, as I have pointed out fill in the blank of "_________ did it, it is self-evident." with just about anything.

    God revealed himself plenty in the old testament, and Saul of Damascus got such a revalation even after jesus died.

    God revealed himself directly to Lucifer, who was still free to reject or accept even with absolute knowledge.

    Faith is an excuse that people use when they don't have good reason to believe something. It is a lot like money, everybody wants mine, but no one is willing to work for it.

    Your faith in your favorite explanation of "the unseen" is not unique. There are billions of people with faith just as strong in other things. Pointing to a book as proof doesn't really get us anywhere, and it certainly gets me no where when your favored explanation is kind of a , with a gun at my head "worship me or else". Not much of a free will decision innit?

  22. #397
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    The Dianetics guy said it was written into the fabric of the universe too, just waiting for us to discover. You can, as I have pointed out fill in the blank of "_________ did it, it is self-evident." with just about anything.

    God revealed himself plenty in the old testament, and Saul of Damascus got such a revalation even after jesus died.

    God revealed himself directly to Lucifer, who was still free to reject or accept even with absolute knowledge.

    Faith is an excuse that people use when they don't have good reason to believe something. It is a lot like money, everybody wants mine, but no one is willing to work for it.

    Your faith in your favorite explanation of "the unseen" is not unique. There are billions of people with faith just as strong in other things. Pointing to a book as proof doesn't really get us anywhere, and it certainly gets me no where when your favored explanation is kind of a , with a gun at my head "worship me or else". Not much of a free will decision innit?
    Yet you use your free will to reject Him. It's still a choice. Your choice.

    What I'm saying is that all choices have consequences.

    And again, it's your choice to disagree with that premise.

    As for Lucifer, ultimately that is why his wrongdoings couldn't be brushed off with a proverbial 'mulligan', because he knew better, he knew who GOD was and still rose up against Him. All the angels that followed Lucifer will suffer in his fate. Humans at least have been offered redemption, despite the fact that we didn't deserve it either.

  23. #398
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    I personally can't say with certainty that there's not any merit to demonic possession, because I've never witnessed one and I can't just dismiss claims outright, based on the (small IMO) possibility that I'm ignorant. That said, all the cases that I've read up on about demonic possession have, as the examples in the article have as well, been pretty clearly debunked. It doesn't help those that want to convince others of what they've been (uniquely) witness to, that there's a consistent pattern of either lying/trickery and/or ignorance in the form of religious confirmation bias involved in all of the prior cases making such claims. Given the precedent, it's hard not chalk up claims of by others being witness to demonic possession of being dubious at best.

    What I don't understand is the arragonce and hypocrisy one has to have in order to EXPECT others to believe their claims, when I'm sure they'd be just as dismissive of similar claims made by other people who belong to different faiths.

    What I believe is this: believe what you believe in terms of deamons, possessions, poltergeist etc., but don't arragontly expect others to follow suit just because you say it's true.
    That's such a distrusting way to look at people. Somehow you're painting me as arrogant, because you felt I demanded that others 'take my word for it'...?

    Why even discuss anything at all if people are "just gonna make stuff up all nillly willy...?"

    I didn't object to anyone's reservations about believing my anecdote. What pissed me off was the blatant 'spit-in-their-grave' mockery of my murdered friends' deaths... The distinction, I thought was clear enough.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 01-18-2016 at 03:41 PM.

  24. #399
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    Except that the accounts I referenced are historical accounts by secular historians, wholly independent from scripture... they reference unexplained phenomena that was evident to all who were there to witness it... The Acts of Pontius Pilate for example, affirms that Jesus was performing miracles that defied all explanation (clearly prose not fiction)... the excerpt from Phlegon's writings talk about the sun being blacked out throughout the land "for all to see", and was explicit about the time of day (which coincides with the Gospel narrative)... He later in said book suggests that it couldn't be explained away with a solar eclipse because the moon was not in the proper position in the sky to produce an eclipse (which he also suggests is besides the point because solar eclipses don't last hours nor do they produce earthquakes) (again clearly prose not fiction)...

    I'm just pointing out that the references to Jesus extraordinary life are out there - and not all of them are scriptural as boutons was trying to suggest.
    Just to give people and idea of how argumentation is actually done, you take an individual fact like his discussion of The Acts of Pilate. Now dip is obvious copying and pasting others works to a large degree.

    Here is the description of it in the Catholic Encyclopedia: they have had and continue to have the copies of it btw.

    This work does not assume to have written by Pilate, but to have been derived from the official acts preserved in the praetorium at Jerusalem. The alleged Hebrew original is attributed to Nicodemus. The le "Gospel of Nicodemus" is of medieval origin. The apocryphon gained wide credit in the Middle Ages, and has considerably affected the legends of our Saviour's Passion. Its popularity is attested by the number of languages in which it exists, each of these being represented by two or more recensions. We possess a text in Greek, the original language; a Coptic, an Armenian and a Latin, besides modern translations. The Latin versions were naturally its most current form and were printed several times in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. One class of the Latin manuscripts contain as an appendix or continuation, the "Cura Sanitatis Tiberii", the oldest form of the Veronica legend.

    The "Acta" consist of three sections, which reveal inequalities of style. The first (i-xi) contains the trial of Jesus based upon Luke 23. The second part comprises 12-16; it regards the Resurrection. An appendix, detailing the Descensus ad Infernos, forms the third section, This does not exist in the Greek text and is a later addition.
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01111b.htm

    Sure does sound like my paradigm of addition and exclusion at whim. They have no idea where it really came from beyond to say Jerusalem and it quite obvious that the original texts were gathered by the catholics in the e enial councils becuase they didn't exist prior. They even admit it was embellished in the middle ages.

    The first time it shows up is the 2nd century:

    Some Acts of Pilate, it seems, were known as early as the second century. Justin Martyr remarks in his first Apology (35) after he has mentioned the passion and crucifixion of Jesus: 'And that these things happened you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.'
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actspilate.html

    Prior to that nothing.

  25. #400
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    The Gospel of Nicodemus preserves a do ent known as the Acta Pilati in chapters 1 to 11, with an addition in chapters 12 to 16, while chapters 17 to 27 are called the "Decensus Christi ad Inferos." Quasten writes, "The whole work, which in a later Latin manuscript is called the Evangelium Nicodemi, must have been composed at the beginning of the fifth century, but it seems to be more or less a compilation of older material." (Patrology, vol. 1, p. 116) It is possible that the material in the Gospel of Nicodemus was written to refute pagan Acts of Pilate created in 311, mentioned by Eusebius:

    Having forged, to be sure, Memoirs of Pilate and Our Saviour, full of every kind of blasphemy against Christ, with the approval of their chief they sent them round to every part of his dominions, with edicts that they should be exhibited openly for everyone to see in every place, both town and country, and that the primary teachers should give them to the children, instead of lessons, for study and committal to memory. (H. E. 9.5.1)

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