Lakers: What years was Kirby Bryant the best player on the Lakers team?

[Splits]

fMVP

[AlexJones]

Was Kobe Bryant truly the best player on the Lakers when they were contenders? NBA insiders Splits and Ambchang break it down for us LIVE on ESPN at midnight.

[Benoit]

Spur fans trying to use this argument and ignoring that Duncan hasnt been their best player since 2004 lmao

[Splits]

[Splits]

[MultiTroll]

Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson

Is this your table at OilCan Harrys?

[Splits]

[ambchang]

I have literally never heard a player or coach say Pau was more important than Kobe

It's call avoiding controversy. Also, I have not heard any player or coaches say Kobe is more important than MVPau either, other than Kobe himself.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...2772--nba.html

Most intelligent player.
Unique skill set in nba history.

Kobe knew he rode the coattails.

[ambchang]

yeah, the lakers were getting ridiculous FT advantages. but kobe was leading the charge for the team during that stretch

Not entirely true. Dwight and MVPau both came back from injuries. I will lookup the win loss tomorrow. Difficult to do so in the phone.

[ambchang]

Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and most great players in the league- "Kobe was the best player of his generation"

Spur fans and nerds- "Pau Gasol the guy that never won a playoff game without Kobe was more important" LMAO

Kobe couldn't even get to the playoffs without the best frontline in the league, the same year MVPau made it.

[ambchang]

Spur fans trying to use this argument and ignoring that Duncan hasnt been their best player since 2004 lmao

Why? Duncan led the Spurs in most advanced stats till around 2008. And still rank high in 2014.

[Splits]

Why? Duncan led the Spurs in most advanced stats till around 2008. And still rank high in 2014.

"high"?

He rang as the alpha. He led the team in the playoffs in minutes, FG%, boards, blocks, FTA, PER, and win shares. He was 2nd in FGA and points. In what was the most dominant NBA finals performance of any team in history over the back-to-back champs.

[ambchang]

"high"?

He rang as the alpha. He led the team in the playoffs in minutes, FG%, boards, blocks, FTA, PER, and win shares. He was 2nd in FGA and points. In what was the most dominant NBA finals performance of any team in history over the back-to-back champs.

My bads

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Spur fans trying to use this argument and ignoring that Duncan hasnt been their best player since 2004 lmao

2013

[DMC]

Some great players are unimpeachably great. They reach a status where the only way to differentiate between them is to nit-pick and be petty about their respective weaknesses. And those from the modern era are even harder to knock down a peg, as they don’t have any of the era-related qualms like the elite players of the 60s (the level of athleticism pales in comparison, the pace was way faster, defenses weren’t as sophisticated, etc.) These modern legends are players that can be identified by just one name. Jordan. Magic. Kareem. Bird. LeBron. Duncan., Shaq. Hakeem. Schrempf. (Just kidding.) (No, but seriously.)


Then there are players who might have household names, but are generally seen as being a tier below the rest. Their resume is missing one or two major pieces — either they never won an MVP, or never won a le, or perhaps even both. Or even if they won both, there’s something about their game that keeps them out of what Bill Simmons would call The Pantheon (maybe they sucked on defense, maybe they peaked for a short period of time, maybe they toiled on bad teams for too long, or whatever). Guys like Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Dirk, Nash, Pippen, Ewing, Robinson, and several others.


Then there’s Kobe Bryant.


Which group does he belong to? Most people would put him in that first group. He has an MVP. He played on five le teams. He was named to SEVENTEEN All-Star Teams. He was named to FIFTEEN All-NBA Teams (12 of them First-Team nods). He’s been so good for so long that it would seem he would have to be included in the first group.


But that would be wrong.


Kobe Bryant is the most overrated player in NBA history. He’s certainly not one of the ten best players ever. Probably not even top 15. Perhaps not even top 20. If Kobe Bryant were a breakfast cereal, he’d be Honey Nut Cheerios. Always good. Occasionally great. But never the best. And after a while, you get sick of them.


Kobe Bryant won an MVP, but it was a farce. You can’t say he was the best player on the best team, because Kevin Garnett’s Celtics won 66 games that season (Kobe’s Lakers only won 56). You can’t say he was the most valuable because he played in a more compe ive conference, because Chris Paul’s Hornets also won 56 games that year, and he did it without Pau Gasol (and the team was coached by Byron Scott, for Christ’s sake). Kobe’s 2008 MVP award is kind of like the Oscar that Leo DiCaprio will win in 2031. It won’t be his best work but voters will feel awkward and just vote for him out of sympathy.


He’s been in the league for 17 years, and made 12 All-NBA first teams, but he was never actually the best player in the league. He certainly wasn’t in 2008, when he finished a distant 8th in Player Efficiency Rating, on par with Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh, and Chauncey Billups. Not exactly “Pantheon” material.


The only year you could conceivably argue that he *was* the best was 2006, the year he famously torched Morris Peterson, Joey Graham, Matt Bonner, Colonel Mus , and the rest of the league’s 29th-ranked defense to the tune of 81 points. On 46 shots. Big whoop.


In 2006, he finished 3rd in Player Efficiency Rating, 4th in Win Shares, 8th in Win Shares/48 minutes, and 9th in Box Plus/Minus, Basketball-Reference’s estimate of a player’s contributions above or below a league-average player adjusted for a league-average team. None of those scream “best player in the league.” For comparison, Shaq finished a decisive 1st in all four categories in 2000, as did LeBron in 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013. When you’re the best, you’re the best. Can you really be one of the ten best players ever if you were never the best player in the league? Especially when the majority of your prime coincides with a jarring dearth of talent that saw this team inexplicably win 50 games? He was constantly exceeded by his peers, only eclipsing them when surrounded by an insurmountable amount of talent. Also, “Kobe Doin’ Work” was really stupid.


Historically, he’s nothing more than a footnote. He’s 39th all-time in Win Shares per 48 minutes, sandwiched between George Yardley and Clyde Lovellette (that isn’t a joke, either). His best single-season mark in that category ranks 224, tied with Mack Calvin’s memorable 1972-1973 season for the ABA’s Carolina Cougars. He ranks 20th in Player Efficiency Rating, and his highest single-season PER ranks just 58th all-time. His career Box Plus/Minus ranks him 29th, behind Andrei Kirilenko, Bobby Jones, and Larry Nance. His high point, in 2002-2003, ranks 146th in history, barely out-pacing John Drew’s 1976 season in Atlanta, and behind Steve Francis’ 2001 season. Steve Francis. STEVE. FRANCIS.


The les argument doesn’t really jive, either. He played on five le teams, but was really only the engine for two of them. The les in 2000, 2001, and 2002 were Shaq’s doing. Kobe was a good player then, yes, but if you swap out Kobe with any good swingman from that era (McGrady, Carter, Pierce, Allen), Shaq’s team is going to win the le unless Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett all somehow ended up on the same team. , Shaq averaged a 33/16 in the 2001 Finals going up against the Defensive Player of The Year in Dikembe Mutombo. He went for a 27/13 in the Western Finals that year against Tim Duncan and David Robinson, only two of the best defensive big men of the last 25 years. Yes, Kobe was great in that series as well, but the Lakers swept the Spurs easily. A “downgrade” from Kobe to Paul Pierce wouldn’t have resulted in a four-game swing. Kobe was wholly expendable for those three Laker teams, so he might as well just throw those three rings out the window. And even though he thinks he’s the coolest guy ever, he’s totally not.


If you tried to argue that Scottie Pippen is better than LeBron on the “Six Rings > Two Rings” argument, you’d be stupid for two reasons. The first, obviously, is that rings shouldn’t really matter. Players don’t win championships. Teams do. The second is that those six Pippen rings came riding Jordan’s coattails. The same goes for those first three Kobe rings. From 2000-2002, Kobe was a glorified Steve Kerr. He was just in the right place at the right time, fortunate enough to play with a superior star. Kobe thought he was the alpha dog, but was rudely awakened in 2005, when Shaq switched coasts, won a le a year later, while Kobe toiled in mediocrity for three years before his front office magically gift-wrapped him another All-World big man as a running mate. Jerry West and Mitch Kupchak are the real winners here, not Kobe.


The only argument to be made is his longevity. Because he played so damn long, he worked his way up the leaderboards and currently sits third all-time in NBA scoring. But that can easily be dismissed. Playing more is not playing better. It’s just playing more. It would be like saying Arli$$ is a better sitcom than Arrested Development because it was on the air longer.


Kobe has scored the third-most points, but he’s done so on the third-most shots. Back in November, Kobe the great clanged his 13,418th field goal attempt, the most ever, making him (as some would argue) the most inept shooter in NBA history. If missing shots is bad, then Kobe might well be the worst player ever.

[Killakobe81]

Spur fans trying to use this argument and ignoring that Duncan hasnt been their best player since 2004 lmao

Since 2007 ... I agree. He was till their best from 1999-2007. After that? For a few years it was Parker or Manu ... before Kiwi came along.

[Killakobe81]

Some great players are unimpeachably great. They reach a status where the only way to differentiate between them is to nit-pick and be petty about their respective weaknesses. And those from the modern era are even harder to knock down a peg, as they don’t have any of the era-related qualms like the elite players of the 60s (the level of athleticism pales in comparison, the pace was way faster, defenses weren’t as sophisticated, etc.) These modern legends are players that can be identified by just one name. Jordan. Magic. Kareem. Bird. LeBron. Duncan., Shaq. Hakeem. Schrempf. (Just kidding.) (No, but seriously.)


Then there are players who might have household names, but are generally seen as being a tier below the rest. Their resume is missing one or two major pieces — either they never won an MVP, or never won a le, or perhaps even both. Or even if they won both, there’s something about their game that keeps them out of what Bill Simmons would call The Pantheon (maybe they sucked on defense, maybe they peaked for a short period of time, maybe they toiled on bad teams for too long, or whatever). Guys like Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Dirk, Nash, Pippen, Ewing, Robinson, and several others.


Then there’s Kobe Bryant.


Which group does he belong to? Most people would put him in that first group. He has an MVP. He played on five le teams. He was named to SEVENTEEN All-Star Teams. He was named to FIFTEEN All-NBA Teams (12 of them First-Team nods). He’s been so good for so long that it would seem he would have to be included in the first group.


But that would be wrong.


Kobe Bryant is the most overrated player in NBA history. He’s certainly not one of the ten best players ever. Probably not even top 15. Perhaps not even top 20. If Kobe Bryant were a breakfast cereal, he’d be Honey Nut Cheerios. Always good. Occasionally great. But never the best. And after a while, you get sick of them.


Kobe Bryant won an MVP, but it was a farce. You can’t say he was the best player on the best team, because Kevin Garnett’s Celtics won 66 games that season (Kobe’s Lakers only won 56). You can’t say he was the most valuable because he played in a more compe ive conference, because Chris Paul’s Hornets also won 56 games that year, and he did it without Pau Gasol (and the team was coached by Byron Scott, for Christ’s sake). Kobe’s 2008 MVP award is kind of like the Oscar that Leo DiCaprio will win in 2031. It won’t be his best work but voters will feel awkward and just vote for him out of sympathy.


He’s been in the league for 17 years, and made 12 All-NBA first teams, but he was never actually the best player in the league. He certainly wasn’t in 2008, when he finished a distant 8th in Player Efficiency Rating, on par with Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh, and Chauncey Billups. Not exactly “Pantheon” material.


The only year you could conceivably argue that he *was* the best was 2006, the year he famously torched Morris Peterson, Joey Graham, Matt Bonner, Colonel Mus , and the rest of the league’s 29th-ranked defense to the tune of 81 points. On 46 shots. Big whoop.


In 2006, he finished 3rd in Player Efficiency Rating, 4th in Win Shares, 8th in Win Shares/48 minutes, and 9th in Box Plus/Minus, Basketball-Reference’s estimate of a player’s contributions above or below a league-average player adjusted for a league-average team. None of those scream “best player in the league.” For comparison, Shaq finished a decisive 1st in all four categories in 2000, as did LeBron in 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013. When you’re the best, you’re the best. Can you really be one of the ten best players ever if you were never the best player in the league? Especially when the majority of your prime coincides with a jarring dearth of talent that saw this team inexplicably win 50 games? He was constantly exceeded by his peers, only eclipsing them when surrounded by an insurmountable amount of talent. Also, “Kobe Doin’ Work” was really stupid.


Historically, he’s nothing more than a footnote. He’s 39th all-time in Win Shares per 48 minutes, sandwiched between George Yardley and Clyde Lovellette (that isn’t a joke, either). His best single-season mark in that category ranks 224, tied with Mack Calvin’s memorable 1972-1973 season for the ABA’s Carolina Cougars. He ranks 20th in Player Efficiency Rating, and his highest single-season PER ranks just 58th all-time. His career Box Plus/Minus ranks him 29th, behind Andrei Kirilenko, Bobby Jones, and Larry Nance. His high point, in 2002-2003, ranks 146th in history, barely out-pacing John Drew’s 1976 season in Atlanta, and behind Steve Francis’ 2001 season. Steve Francis. STEVE. FRANCIS.


The les argument doesn’t really jive, either. He played on five le teams, but was really only the engine for two of them. The les in 2000, 2001, and 2002 were Shaq’s doing. Kobe was a good player then, yes, but if you swap out Kobe with any good swingman from that era (McGrady, Carter, Pierce, Allen), Shaq’s team is going to win the le unless Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett all somehow ended up on the same team. , Shaq averaged a 33/16 in the 2001 Finals going up against the Defensive Player of The Year in Dikembe Mutombo. He went for a 27/13 in the Western Finals that year against Tim Duncan and David Robinson, only two of the best defensive big men of the last 25 years. Yes, Kobe was great in that series as well, but the Lakers swept the Spurs easily. A “downgrade” from Kobe to Paul Pierce wouldn’t have resulted in a four-game swing. Kobe was wholly expendable for those three Laker teams, so he might as well just throw those three rings out the window. And even though he thinks he’s the coolest guy ever, he’s totally not.


If you tried to argue that Scottie Pippen is better than LeBron on the “Six Rings > Two Rings” argument, you’d be stupid for two reasons. The first, obviously, is that rings shouldn’t really matter. Players don’t win championships. Teams do. The second is that those six Pippen rings came riding Jordan’s coattails. The same goes for those first three Kobe rings. From 2000-2002, Kobe was a glorified Steve Kerr. He was just in the right place at the right time, fortunate enough to play with a superior star. Kobe thought he was the alpha dog, but was rudely awakened in 2005, when Shaq switched coasts, won a le a year later, while Kobe toiled in mediocrity for three years before his front office magically gift-wrapped him another All-World big man as a running mate. Jerry West and Mitch Kupchak are the real winners here, not Kobe.


The only argument to be made is his longevity. Because he played so damn long, he worked his way up the leaderboards and currently sits third all-time in NBA scoring. But that can easily be dismissed. Playing more is not playing better. It’s just playing more. It would be like saying Arli$$ is a better sitcom than Arrested Development because it was on the air longer.


Kobe has scored the third-most points, but he’s done so on the third-most shots. Back in November, Kobe the great clanged his 13,418th field goal attempt, the most ever, making him (as some would argue) the most inept shooter in NBA history. If missing shots is bad, then Kobe might well be the worst player ever.

Didn't read ... just saw this wall of words as i was logging in ...So glad ignore saved me from this drivel. But a quick scan told me you put a lot of work in to it good grammar, syntax and formatting

[Benoit]

2013

Where were you from 2008 to 2013? lmao

Duncan became irrelevant in those years and he didnt become relevant again until Pops system evolved into getting him easy layups all game

[SupremeGuy]

You can tell this thread is cutting deep into lakerfan's soul.

[Neurosis]

fMVP

that's actually so ing embarrassing.

[MultiTroll]

Originally Posted by Benoit I have literally never heard a player or coach say Pau was more important than Kobe

It's call avoiding controversy. Also, I have not heard any player or coaches say Kobe is more important than MVPau either, other than Kobe himself.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...2772--nba.html

Most intelligent player.
Unique skill set in nba history.

Kobe knew he rode the coattails.

Complete nuke.

[MultiTroll]

there was a stretch of something like 2 months where he was averaging close to 8 assists per game to end the year. he was on a roll

In games with 7+ assists the team was 22-10.
Which begets the question, why would you go away from winning formula Kirby?
Translation, in games he chucked the Lakers were far sub .500

Never was a two month straight stretch, as he would have as many as 5 kick ass assist games in a row but would always revert back to Kirby Chucker.

[MultiTroll]

.351 Kirby Bryant.
.349 Swaggy Puss

Altho the haters would point to Swaggys .330 treys as somehow being better then Kirbys .274

[lefty]

Still better than Parker tbh