Time for MVPatty to close games?

[dabom]

Since you're that sure I feel more at ease that I am right.

Nah. But ok.

[SpursforSix]

I don't give a who's playing as long as the team closes games.

If Patty's hot, then go with Patty. If it's a toss up, probably go with Parker and his adequate ball handling.

But if the outcome of a game rests on the PG, then it's not an ideal situation.

[K...]

Tony has to start games. I don't trust patty to go against rested top tier guards. He's better off remaining on the bench hitting shots and then letting him run at the starting pg only after they've (opponent starting guard) gassed out.

Also Parker and Duncan should play together b/c of ancient synergy. Tonight Duncan didn't play down the stretch so Parker didn't either. They both need rest, so it's fine.


I saw Patty had six assists this game....were they good assists or just passing the ball around the perimeter? Real question i missed the game.

[dabom]

Tony has to start games. I don't trust patty to go against rested top tier guards. He's better off remaining on the bench hitting shots and then letting him run at the starting pg only after they've (opponent starting guard) gassed out.

Also Parker and Duncan should play together b/c of ancient synergy. Tonight Duncan didn't play down the stretch so Parker didn't either. They both need rest, so it's fine.


I saw Patty had six assists this game....were they good assists or just passing the ball around the perimeter? Real question i missed the game.

Do you ever ask that about tony?

[pgardn]

Patty's ball handling in general is improving. He is becoming much less one-dimensional. His drives are improving. His assists are going up. And did you see him finish the lob from Aldridge? . Pop is developing him as a much truer PG, and Pop is simultaneously becoming increasingly frustrated with Tony. He sent him a couple of very strong messages this past week, and Tony is still playing lackadaisical defense. These playoffs will be very interesting to watch just for our PG rotations. But next season will be very interesting!

When closing out games in which we are up I want Tony doing the ball handling.

Patty is still a much better 2. You can't take away his ability to move without the ball and find open spots or get out in transition as a legit 3 point threat. Next season if Tony is done at PG, Patty does not need to be sacrificed. We would need a new guy IMO at PG and we should have room.

[SAGirl]

Patty's ball handling in general is improving. He is becoming much less one-dimensional. His drives are improving. His assists are going up. And did you see him finish the lob from Aldridge? . Pop is developing him as a much truer PG, and Pop is simultaneously becoming increasingly frustrated with Tony. He sent him a couple of very strong messages this past week, and Tony is still playing lackadaisical defense. These playoffs will be very interesting to watch just for our PG rotations. But next season will be very interesting!

Agree. POP is just really a lot less tolerant and will really play whoever is giving his all. IMO Diaw is in trouble too. Kyle is 22 and still a developing player and already playing better defensively and with a lot more compe ive fire. D west is definitely playing better and closing games out + playing more minutes. We are all in this season like we were not last season. I wonder if there are regrets about not playing Cojo last season series.

Patty is still spotty under pressure. Has had many sequences to close out quarters that were !!! He's blowing Tony out of the water though with his hustle. One on one he's not even better defensively but the energy he has and his effort after loose balls, rebounds, etc is something we don't see from Tony at all.

Next season the team will be different. Just how invested they are this season, last minute additions letting go of guys they really really like and Pop giving opportunities to younger guys to grow into larger roles + benching even any if the big3 or Boris if they are not a good match up (mostly TIm find a himself there) or if they are not playing well or executing what Pop wants (Tony & Bobo) just screams of Pop's determination this season, which gives me a good feeling fir our chances despite GSW. We are not going to sink this season on one or two guys' account.

[sasaint]

When closing out games in which we are up I want Tony doing the ball handling.

Patty is still a much better 2. You can't take away his ability to move without the ball and find open spots or get out in transition as a legit 3 point threat. Next season if Tony is done at PG, Patty does not need to be sacrificed. We would need a new guy IMO at PG and we should have room.

Don't think it is sacrificing Patty. In a system that is not supposed to be point guard-dominant, you are describing a pretty good PG. Many of the elite PGs in the league any more are legit 3-point threats with/without the ball and in transition. BTW if Tony is "done", what do you expect his fate to be? Also, we may have several pairs of big sneakers to fill next season, how do you think we have room for a good new PG, and who do you think that is?

[SpursFan86]

Wow..I just looked it up:

Aldridge/Leonard/Mills: +22.5 PP100 top 3-man combination the Spurs have utilized, this season, slightly ahead of Leonard/Green/West..

Sample size is much smaller, of course..

Yup...and if you narrow it down to just the Mills/Kawhi duo, they have a net rating of +24.9 (best duo the Spurs have thrown out there).

If you think that's crazy, look at the Spurs' starting lineup with Mills in place of Parker: Mills/Green/Kawhi/Aldridge/Duncan have a net rating of +42.7 They've played under 50 minutes together, but still...would really like for Pop to start experimenting with playing Patty more with the big guns as opposed to just using him as a spark plug for the bench unit.

[sasaint]

Agree. POP is just really a lot less tolerant and will really play whoever is giving his all. IMO Diaw is in trouble too. Kyle is 22 and still a developing player and already playing better defensively and with a lot more compe ive fire. D west is definitely playing better and closing games out + playing more minutes. We are all in this season like we were not last season. I wonder if there are regrets about not playing Cojo last season series.

Patty is still spotty under pressure. Has had many sequences to close out quarters that were !!! He's blowing Tony out of the water though with his hustle. One on one he's not even better defensively but the energy he has and his effort after loose balls, rebounds, etc is something we don't see from Tony at all.

Next season the team will be different. Just how invested they are this season, last minute additions letting go of guys they really really like and Pop giving opportunities to younger guys to grow into larger roles + benching even any if the big3 or Boris if they are not a good match up (mostly TIm find a himself there) or if they are not playing well or executing what Pop wants (Tony & Bobo) just screams of Pop's determination this season, which gives me a good feeling fir our chances despite GSW. We are not going to sink this season on one or two guys' account.

Tony and Patty are very close in RPM. Maybe it is the coach in me, but give me Patty's hustle any day! Just wish he'd grow a few inches.

BTW, Timmy has recovered well from whatever ailment had him dying in the first Laker game in LA. I was 100% certain he was hanging 'em up after this season - and I was glad to see him walk away intact. Now I am only about 80% certain.

ALSO BTW, Danny's handles are far less cringe-worthy lately. Could it be all of Pop's forcing him to put the ball on the floor early has paid a little dividends?

[itzsoweezee]

I'm sick of hearing how much he took as a rookie. He's French, he should be used to getting stepped on.

Lol.

[dabom]

Tony and Patty are very close in RPM. Maybe it is the coach in me, but give me Patty's hustle any day! Just wish he'd grow a few inches.

BTW, Timmy has recovered well from whatever ailment had him dying in the first Laker game in LA. I was 100% certain he was hanging 'em up after this season - and I was glad to see him walk away intact. Now I am only about 80% certain.

ALSO BTW, Danny's handles are far less cringe-worthy lately. Could it be all of Pop's forcing him to put the ball on the floor early has paid a little dividends?

Patty is 4 times better than Tony in RPM.

[SpursFan86]

Mills/Green/Kawhi/Aldridge/Duncan: net RTG = +42.7 in 42 minutes of play

Mills/Green/Kawhi/Aldridge: net RTG = +28.1 in 122 minutes of play

Mills/Kawhi/Aldridge: net RTG = +22.5 in 359 minutes of play

Mills/Kawhi: net RTG = +24.9 in 611 minutes of play

Pretty hard to argue with those numbers...

[pgardn]

Don't think it is sacrificing Patty. In a system that is not supposed to be point guard-dominant, you are describing a pretty good PG. Many of the elite PGs in the league any more are legit 3-point threats with/without the ball and in transition. BTW if Tony is "done", what do you expect his fate to be? Also, we may have several pairs of big sneakers to fill next season, how do you think we have room for a good new PG, and who do you think that is?

Patty is not a stop and start ball handler. He is straight line fast, not a jitterbug, change directions. IMO all points should have this ability as well as being able to put a guy on their hip or in back of them and keep them off the ball. Patty is very uncomfortable with this and this part of a PG abilities has not changed. So yes I believe what I have described is using Pattys skills incorrectly.

Tony?

He sits. I mean he flat out sits like Pop has already given him ample doses of. Manu and Tim gone, Aldridge having a successful transition could get some interest from a legit guy. There will most likely be no more comfy picks out high "I know where you are going" with Tim most likely gone which will really test Parker fully. I believe Duncan has extended Tony's reliability.

[sasaint]

Patty is 4 times better than Tony in RPM.

Honestly I posted without checking. The last time I checked was actually 3 or 4 weeks ago, and they were pretty close IIRC. If Patty's is that much better now, it just shows the great disparity in their play the last few weeks.

[itzsoweezee]

Mills/Green/Kawhi/Aldridge/Duncan: net RTG = +42.7 in 42 minutes of play

Mills/Green/Kawhi/Aldridge: net RTG = +28.1 in 122 minutes of play

Mills/Kawhi/Aldridge: net RTG = +22.5 in 359 minutes of play

Mills/Kawhi: net RTG = +24.9 in 611 minutes of play

Pretty hard to argue with those numbers...

There is no real reasonable argument for Parker over Mills. Parker's superior ball handling is the closest I've heard, but I'm guessing their turnover rates are not that different.

[pgardn]

Mills/Green/Kawhi/Aldridge/Duncan: net RTG = +42.7 in 42 minutes of play

Mills/Green/Kawhi/Aldridge: net RTG = +28.1 in 122 minutes of play

Mills/Kawhi/Aldridge: net RTG = +22.5 in 359 minutes of play

Mills/Kawhi: net RTG = +24.9 in 611 minutes of play

Pretty hard to argue with those numbers...

When you don't have to chase Curry, Paul, etc... from the start of the game and again at the end in big moments...
Looks good on paper and I wish it was that easy but I don't believe it is.

[sasaint]

Patty is not a stop and start ball handler. He is straight line fast, not a jitterbug, change directions. IMO all points should have this ability as well as being able to put a guy on their hip or in back of them and keep them off the ball. Patty is very uncomfortable with this and this part of a PG abilities has not changed. So yes I believe what I have described is using Pattys skills incorrectly.

Tony?

He sits. I mean he flat out sits like Pop has already given him ample doses of. Manu and Tim gone, Aldridge having a successful transition could get some interest from a legit guy. There will most likely be no more comfy picks out high "I know where you are going" with Tim most likely gone which will really test Parker fully. I believe Duncan has extended Tony's reliability.

I don't disagree with it, but you added some to your description in this response. My point is simply that Patty is becoming a much more adequate option, given the choices we currently have.

Parker makes $14MM to SIT?

[SpursFan86]

When you don't have to chase Curry, Paul, etc... from the start of the game and again at the end in big moments...
Looks good on paper and I wish it was that easy but I don't believe it is.

I'm not even advocating for Mills to start. I just think Pop should be playing him more with the 1st unit. He's just so much better of a fit offensively* next to Kawhi/Aldridge. And sorry, but the defense argument doesn't really work when you're comparing him to Tony Parker They're both mediocre at best defenders.

*
Mills/Kawhi/Aldridge trio: ORTG = 120.2
Parker/Kawhi/Aldridge trio: ORTG = 107.0

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Parker plays against first team. Mills plays against scrubs. Mills is a relief pitcher not a starter.

[pgardn]

I don't disagree with it, but you added some to your description in this response. My point is simply that Patty is becoming a much more adequate option, given the choices we currently have.

Parker makes $14MM to SIT?

What would you suggest?

If we can't trade him he sits. You certainly don't put him on the floor if you have two guys better at PG because we will have one next year (we will see how good) and since people are basically indicating Patty is a better point.

What would you do?

And this of course suggests Parker is incompetent like last year against Paul in the playoffs. You don't play a terrible player...

[pgardn]

I'm not even advocating for Mills to start. I just think Pop should be playing him more with the 1st unit. He's just so much better of a fit offensively* next to Kawhi/Aldridge. And sorry, but the defense argument doesn't really work when you're comparing him to Tony Parker They're both mediocre at best defenders.

*
Mills/Kawhi/Aldridge trio: ORTG = 120.2
Parker/Kawhi/Aldridge trio: ORTG = 107.0

No actually it does. Mills is not only worse on D he gets really stupid fouls very quickly.

[SpursFan86]

No actually it does. Mills is not only worse on D he gets really stupid fouls very quickly.

Mills and Parker both average 2.1 fouls per 36 minutes...would hardly consider that foul-prone.

My argument isn't that Mills isn't worse on D than Parker. It's that there's no way in Parker's "advantage" defensively makes up for the massive advantage Mills brings offensively. They're both ty defenders. Parker being only slightly less ty doesn't really make up for how much better the offense flows with Mills.

I'm far less worried about our defense falling apart with Green/Kawhi/Duncan out there than I am about our offense stalling and getting jammed up like it has so often this year.

Again, I'm not advocating that Mills starts full-time or takes a ton of Parker's minutes. I just want to see him get a bit more playing time, specifically with some of the starters. And like this topic initially brought up, that he play more down the stretch of close games.

[pgardn]

Mills and Parker both average 2.1 fouls per 36 minutes...would hardly consider that foul-prone.

My argument isn't that Mills isn't worse on D than Parker. It's that there's no way in Parker's "advantage" defensively makes up for the massive advantage Mills brings offensively.

I'm far less worried about our defense falling apart with Green/Kawhi/Duncan out there than I am about our offense stalling and getting jammed up like it has so often this year.

I got no problem with any of the above except to look at how Patty and Tony score. They are so very different. And Patty is more comfortable and a better scorer off the ball. This is why Manu is so nice to have with Patty. Even Parker with Patty worked tonight to make it a blowout. Danny with Patty.... I shudder except now KL is taking responsibility.

[sasaint]

What would you suggest?

If we can't trade him he sits. You certainly don't put him on the floor if you have two guys better at PG because we will have one next year (we will see how good) and since people are basically indicating Patty is a better point.

What would you do?

And this of course suggests Parker is incompetent like last year against Paul in the playoffs. You don't play a terrible player...

We lived with Parker's defensive deficiencies when he was lightning quick on offense. Now he not only has the same defensive deficiencies, but his effort is really lacking. I only see two options: 1. We package him with an attractive asset and dump his contract - possibly to the 76ers if they do not come up with a decent PG this off-season or to another team looking to trade a guy on an expiring contract they do not believe they can re-sign, or 2. We amnesty the guy. You don't pay backups $14MM.

Trouble is I do not see any veteran free agent this coming off-season that is desirable and/or affordable. Who do you think we could get?

[SpursFan86]

I got no problem with any of the above except to look at how Patty and Tony score. They are so very different. And Patty is more comfortable and a better scorer off the ball. This is why Manu is so nice to have with Patty. Even Parker with Patty worked tonight to make it a blowout. Danny with Patty.... I shudder except now KL is taking responsibility.

This is exactly why I'm advocating playing Mills more with the starters When Kawhi and LMA are out there, the last thing I want is Parker dribbling around for 15 seconds. It's much more beneficial to have a lights out shooter who can demand attention from defenses and create space for Kawhi/Aldridge. If teams start to double those guys (which they'll almost certainly have to), then they can kick it out to Mills.

Kawhi has gotten to the point where he can create offense and run PnRs consistently. He's one of the most efficient PnR ball-handlers in the league. I don't think we need Parker to run offense at this point. Kawhi can run PnRs or attack defenders straight up off the dribble, Kawhi and LMA can create out of the post, Duncan-Aldridge high-low action...the list goes on.