Kyle Anderson Full Game Highlight VS Memphis Grizzlies (13Points, 7Assists, 4 Steals)

[dabom]

Manu didn't get a lot of minutes last year because Beli was on fire. Beli took some of Manu's rotation minutes. Quite frankly, it wasn't because he was bad.

[dabom]

sup bro, why do they keep deleting your Parker threads, tbh?

I don't know man. The mods don't let me have fun.

[Blake]

It depends on what the other team is doing. D.West can be the odd man out but not bc of Kyle. Rather bc Pop may want to split LMA and TD. In that case TD in the bench takes D.West spot. I find this scenario very unpalatable for Pop. He will try to stick with his bigs, but if the other coach forces his hand, then he's forced.

So if there's no D West and no Kyle, who's playing?

[ElNono]

I am not hating on Manu. IMO it is really more important to spare his strength. He really was overplayed for a stretch and declined in production last season. Whether it was mental/grind I don't know. He had a rough go after December Nono, and he's really not played a lot of 26-28 games which is what ppl are talking about here this season. I suppose he can give you that one or two games, but really all through the postseason, that is unreal.

He always plays 2-4 more minutes than in the regular season. The only exception was last playoffs (on that lone series), but it mostly had to do the with the fact that Beli was having a good series shooting wise. But Beli is not around anymore.

This season he's averaging about 19 mpg in the regular season, that's why I'm saying that he'll likely play 21-23 mins in the playoffs. There's no back to back. Like I said, there might be an extra 4-5 mins at SG, but I'm pretty sure Green/KMart can fill that in. I think Kyle will play SF... unless he's not too good, then Pop might go for a 3 guard lineup with more Patty/Green/KMart as needed.

[ElNono]

Manu didn't get a lot of minutes last year because Beli was on fire. Beli took some of Manu's rotation minutes. Quite frankly, it wasn't because he was bad.

damn, you beat me to it

[dabom]

damn, you beat me to it

I know brah. There's this ST myth that Manu did bad or was done. It's just Beli was doing such a good job. I see the game too brah.

[SAGirl]

He always plays 2-4 more minutes than in the regular season. The only exception was last playoffs (on that lone series), but it mostly had to do the with the fact that Beli was having a good series shooting wise. But Beli is not around anymore.

This season he's averaging about 19 mpg in the regular season, that's why I'm saying that he'll likely play 21-23 mins in the playoffs. There's no back to back. Like I said, there might be an extra 4-5 mins at SG, but I'm pretty sure Green/KMart can fill that in. I think Kyle will play SF... unless he's not too good, then Pop might go for a 3 guard lineup with more Patty/Green/KMart as needed.

You are right on that. I find 21-23 minutes very doable in the postseason for him (assuming games are close, blowouts are obviously bench scrimmage scenarios).

[SAGirl]

So if there's no D West and no Kyle, who's playing?

Like I said I find that scenario very unpalatable for Pop but that is what good coaches do force the other coach's hand into unpalatable options. Who do you go to? The likely answer is Diaw. The GSW match mystified me bc the first meeting was w/o TD and we had a very early version of this team where LMA wasn't really stepping up like he had to.

The second matchup they were the ones depleted without their full complement of players specially Bogut and Ezeli. Pop acquiesced and we went small the entire game with mostly Diaw, Kyle,Kawhi at the 4 for some minutes and that was it. Basically TD and Dwest split bench center minutes.

I think a scenario like that is unlikely but in a long series knows what Kerr might do.

[Chinook]

Look, do me one favor. I come here to try and talk ball with the few people still here who are capable of doing that. You're clearly one of those people. I generally don't talk to people who aren't Krew or attention s. Give me that much credit. And I didn't intentionally try to cut out any of your post - I just showed the part I was responding to, so the whole thing wouldn't take up so much space.

Even back in the summer, I felt like this was an all-in kind of season, and likely Duncan's last. (Largely because I think it's likely Duncan's last.) So, yeah, I think this team has a lot riding on a 38 year-old Manu Ginobili. I understand concern that he can't handle 26-ish minutes for the whole playoffs, but I think that's what Pop will try to get out of him. That's part of the reason I think that if Pop plays a longer rotation, it's bad news - because it will mean that Manu is hurt or just gassed, and we'll be watching Plan B. Maybe I'm just delusional for thinking that there is any possibility of Manu playing that many minutes, but that's what I'm expecting to see. I think he will ride the young guys, and push the older ones - and if the wheels come off, they come off.

If we keep this up, we're going to wind up splitting hairs over how many minutes it takes to be "meaningful". That winds up with two people both saying, "I told you so", and I don't want to go there. (That may be where some of our disagreement is coming from already?) I'm thinking he will try to give Andre Miller minutes in the first round. If he's solid, I think it will be the same in the second round, and Kyle's minutes will look more like what I said. If he isn't, they will probably be more like what you said. Honestly, I don't have a clue how he will go about trying to best Golden State, so I hadn't really gone there. But in general, I think Pop will lean away from a young, developing player in favor of seasoned vets, unless the situation just doesn't leave him any choice. I'm pretty sure that even you would agree that Pop has always avoided trusting young players too extensively, come playoff time. He expressed some regret for not playing George Hill more, but I don't think he's got Kyle in the same category as a young Hill. Maybe I'm wrong.

The Hill, Splitter and Green talks were from their first years with team. Anderson is in the second season. Last year, Kyle didn't play much, which fit in with what Pop normally does. In their second years, Pop trusted them just fine in the playoffs (except Green in the 2012 WCF). So I don't think it makes sense to keep using them as examples as to why Anderson won't play. You'd think we were talking about Boban over West or something.

People have to except that Manu may not and shouldn't be expected to bring 26 minutes of good play consistently. He's frankly had games where even 20 has been too many. The team doesn't need him to play a ton to be successful, especially given that Kawhi and LMA will pay more. I'm not sure if Pop wants him to play that much, but as last year showed, he's very willing to cut Manu's time down in a critical playoff series. Some of that time will go to Mills. But not all of it will.

And I didn't think you were trying to pull anything. But as I said, the argument that Pop is going to cut down to nine players is problematic for a few reasons. With the Big Three declining, he simply doesn't have the same assurance that his roster can handle the added workload. Guys with versatility like Anderson or Butler would benefit most from a rotation that has a few minutes left over at a couple different positions.

[Chinook]

So to be clear, in a 9 man rotation that comes down to West or Kyle, you think West will be the odd man out?

Yes. But I also think Pop will run a 10-man rotation. The point was that Pop has historically cut a big out of his rotation when moving to nine guys, so if people want to site his history to say Pop will cut a wing, they'll have to look back a few more years, which has its own issues.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yes. But I also think Pop will run a 10-man rotation. The point was that Pop has historically cut a big out of his rotation when moving to nine guys, so if people want to site his history to say Pop will cut a wing, they'll have to look back a few more years, which has its own issues.

You are talking about past seasons when Timmay wasn't getting pulled out of the starting lineup. If this was 2013 then there wouldn't even be consistent spare minutes for a 4th big outside of the Tim/LMA/Diaw rotation along w/ Kawhi playing small-ball 4.

This upcoming postseason Tim is not playing more than 30 minutes & LMA will probably play 35. So, you have 18 minutes at center & 13 minutes at PF which can be split up b/w Diaw/West. If teams are playing small then Tim probably plays 20-25 & Diaw sees increased minutes along w/ Kawhi at the 4.

[Chinook]

You are talking about past seasons when Timmay wasn't getting pulled out of the starting lineup..

No, I'm talking about this season when Duncan IS getting pulled from the starting line-up. If Pop was willing to go to three bigs back when Tim was still mostly able to play in any lineup, do you think he's going to force two bigs now with Aldridge being the most mobile big and against better small-ball teams? If the Spurs go nine-man it won't be at the expense of a wing. But I do think Pop's going to do what he can to stay big, which means a 10-man rotation.

[Kawhitstorm]

No, I'm talking about this season when Duncan IS getting pulled from the starting line-up. If Pop was willing to go to three bigs back when Tim was still mostly able to play in any lineup, do you think he's going to force two bigs now with Aldridge being the most mobile big and against better small-ball teams? If the Spurs go nine-man it won't be at the expense of a wing. But I do think Pop's going to do what he can to stay big, which means a 10-man rotation.

Worriers aren't going to start Draymond at the 5 after LMA bullied him in the post & they got destroyed on the boards. Bogut/Ezeli are going to play 30-35 minutes thus Tim/West can split those minutes. Diaw/LMA/Kawhi can handle the "death lineup".

Same w/ OKC only playing Durant at the 4 during crunch time. (Same goes for LeBron & the Cavs)

[Chinook]

Worriers aren't going to start Draymond at the 5 after LMA bullied him in the post & they got destroyed on the boards. Bogut/Ezeli are going to play 30-35 minutes thus Tim/West can split those minutes. Diaw/LMA/Kawhi can handle the "death lineup".

Same w/ OKC only playing Durant at the 4 during crunch time. (Same goes for LeBron & the Cavs)

Lebron apparently wants to play a lot more four going forward. And he's more of a physical match-up for the other guys than Draymond is. I don't think the Warriors are willing to give up on Green defending LMA yet, but I do agree they won't start him at the five. With Iggy back, though, they WILL play him there quite a bit.

More importantly, when LMA's on the bench, the Spurs don't really have a big who's good enough to hurt the Warriors' small-ball. The best they can hope for is West on Barnes with Diaw and Draymond cancelling each other out. And none of this addresses the idea that the Spurs may defend Draymond with Kawhi as they did last time. If they do that, it forces the Spurs to play one or both of their bigs on the Warriors' smalls. A guy like Anderson makes more sense on Klay or Barnes than Tim or West do.

[Kawhitstorm]

More importantly, when LMA's on the bench, the Spurs don't really have a big who's good enough to hurt the Warriors' small-ball. The best they can hope for is West on Barnes with Diaw and Draymond cancelling each other out. And none of this addresses the idea that the Spurs may defend Draymond with Kawhi as they did last time. If they do that, it forces the Spurs to play one or both of their bigs on the Warriors' smalls. A guy like Anderson makes more sense on Klay or Barnes than Tim or West do.

Could try putting West on Barnes & Diaw on Iggy (Pop put LMA on Barnes & Diaw on Rush), if they are getting blown by then I guess Pop couldn't experiment w/ Kyle who will most likely be a liability on offense. (Barnes hasn't been the same since his ankle injury & who knows what shape Iggy will be in when he comes back)

I much rather have Kyle on Livingston & playing in the motion offense rather than when Pop is calling isolation sets trying to expose mismatches.

[Brazil]

-Its no that I dont like G.HIll. It was b4 my time so I can't really comment anything else over the observation I noted.
-Dejuan limitation we agree.
-the final point and this one you may understand it or not. If you don't we can just part ways on this and probably leave it at that IMO. You have to acknowledge what he did well b4 he was drafted and question whether that has translated. Was Kyle previously a shooter? No. His NBA skill was rebounding (translated well), he was getting the same deflections, steals, and blocks in college despite his lack of athleticism bc he has terrific timing, anticipation, and good hands (that translated too), then his most valuable and unique/special skill was his court vision and his passing coupled with his reputation for a high BBIQ (that has translated too). We basically have the same guy he was in college.

Now, the areas that he needed to improve are the same. His shot looks different and remade, but its still slow which I think saps confidence. The su ion is that quickening it up is what has reduced his %. He shot 35% from 3 just last season, mostly from the wings/top not even the corner.

His defense was nonexistent allegedly. But he's improved as a defender a lot and is probably still getting better bc he will improve with added strength defending the post and won't be bullied as easily. B4 you jump on the gambling. It pays off for him frequently enough that disrupting the dribble is part of his defensive technique. He comes away with a lot of deflections and steals that way, and when he doesn't he still gets guys out of rhythm. Does not foul on those frequently either. Pop is known to use whatever tools a guy has and can use to his advantage. Patty and Manu gamble a lot too for example, sometimes to fail, but pays enough for them that its a plus, specially for Manu. Patty doesn't have many tools individually as a defender so being a pest and with quick feet getting into the body of someone as much as he can, is about all he can do. Kyle's long arms are his tool, and he has good enough hands to be effective at that. He also has good body control, can stay close enough to quicker players with his length outstretched that they can't easily get by him. You underestimate how much his size bothers guys. He can close out without flying by for the most part and can deny angles. He can negotiate screens relatively ok, but when he doesn't he can switch and won't have a tremendous mismatch. He gets hands on passing lanes which disrupts the pnr. He does several things that are a plus. Simmons gets blown by in the perimeter much more for example.

The rest, are developing areas of his game. But he probably will be best as a playmaker and his best games have been as that (no matter the spot he's playing defensively). We just won't see him in that role until some guys retire. Hopefully by that time we have a more developed player with us who can carry the burden.

I won't go through but some quick points... you are right we have basically the same guy he was in College which is more bad than good for the nba in particular on quickness and shoot release.
I disagree he is a high BBIQ I'd say the opposite actually, he needs a lot of nursing to be a high BBIQ, a high BBIQ don't pass up open shots letting offense getting messy because he can't recognize when to pass or shoot.
I really have nothing against him, he seems to be a good guy trying to find a spot... that's ok, it is just not the super talented high BBIQ dude you try to describe... sorry

[Brazil]

+1 been saying the same thing re: Martin.

[Brazil]

<3 It makes me happy. In good natured fun a lot of guys hate on my boy. then turn around and deny it, which leaves me wondering what the heck they were doing spewing negativity here. Now I kind of like you although you probably don't me. Lol have fun Brazil, we cool.

@ thinking I have a feud with you or something... I mean you started watch bb last year... no offense but we don't fight in the same category tbh... we are absolutely cool

[Brazil]

Manu will play 20 to 25 mpg... I would hazard closer to 25, since he doesn't look anywhere near as banged up as he did last season... but if there's an extra 4-5 mins there, it's gonna be either Green or Martin that fill those mins up, depending on the matchup and if you can hide KMart somewhere, IMO. I think Kyle will get a shot in the 1st round at the 8-10 mins Kawhi will sit down and rest, and any potential garbage time...

My nigg nono tbh

[GSH]

But as I said, the argument that Pop is going to cut down to nine players is problematic for a few reasons.

And you presented damned good reasoning for your opinion. Enough that I wouldn't argue the point. Just remember that I'm one of damned few here that will ever admit to something like that.

Kyle's first year wasn't much of a first year. He scored something like 70 points, and played in what, 30 or so games? I don't know if you play poker, but you're watching the cards, and I'm watching the man. I see the basketball reasons for what you're saying. I don't think Pop is going to put any more of these playoffs in Anderson's hands than he has to. He's always favored experience and steadiness, and it's worked out pretty good. But even so, he may not have any choice this time. You listed some pretty good reasons why.

One thing's for certain. When it comes to drafts or playoffs, Pop usually throws in a wrinkle or two that surprises most of us.

[ceperez]

Can't argue with the logic. Personally, I think Pop is going to ride Kawhi like a racehorse. I think Kyle will get 10 minutes, plus or minus, but not play in some games. But we don't have to wait too long now, to find out which way it goes. The worst part of waiting is going to be all the meltdown threads on the nights Pop rests guys.

I don't think Kawhi can survive exerting maximum effort on both ends of the court. With the exception of the Thunder and Warriors, Kawhi can relax at the defensive end of the court. However you want Kawhi fresh come the 4th quarter against the Thunder and Warriors. What that means is that he's resting and some other SF is in his place. That SF is either Green, Anderson, Martin or Simmons (in order of higher likelihood). The more I think about this, considering Anderson's versatility in both offense and defense, absolutely likely he plays.

[ceperez]

It's a poor one. You site a "nine-man rotation" and neglect to mention that for the last couple of years, that's meant three bigs and six smalls. The last time the Spurs have gone with five smalls was in Neal was both the backup PG and the fourth wing. Before that, you had Hill doing the same thing, except he was he starting two and the Spurs went with an eight-man rotation. Assuming Pop is going to drop Anderson and kept West in a nine-man rotation is not looking at history or at the Spurs' likely opponents. More important, it's not looking at the current state of the Spurs' players.

As I stated in the part of the post you cut out, the math doesn't support the Spurs playing three wings. Even if you assume Kawhi and Green average 40 a night, which I feel is high against anyone but Golden State (yeah, not even OKC or Cleveland), it still leaves Manu to cover the remaining 26 minutes, and that's a higher mpg than he's played the last two post-seasons. There's a real concern that he can't handle three series of that. The solution might be to play Mills more. But that has two problems. It increases Parker's mpg, which has similar problems to Manu's and it hurts the Spurs defense unless the other team is playing two PGs. The only teams that do that often are Cleveland and GS, though the Warriors shouldn't count with 6-7 Livingston being the other PG. It's an option, but it's not a stable option.

Then you add in small-ball, which is a factor even if you assume Diaw will get a lot of minutes in those cases. If the Spurs have success against GS' traditional lineup (which is pretty much dependent on LMA and Tim being good enough to beat Bogut and Green), they will likely go small exclusively. So it's set up for Anderson to get minutes, or at least for another perimeter player to get them. It's a similar issue with OKC and Cleveland (and Portland, but who cares?). Those are teams that can go small for whole games. Anderson's versatility makes him a better play for the ninth man in those cases.

I agree with you here, 9 players is unlikely, you just need to run the numbers and realize that Duncan, Parker and Manu aren't spring chickens anymore. Anderson's versatility on both ends of the court means he absolutely has to play. The alternative is Martin or Simmons. Martin is a problem defensively. Simmons is descent both ends, but he can't guard savvy guards and his dribbling is questionable and error prone.

[Chinook]

@ thinking I have a feud with you or something... I mean you started watch bb last year... no offense but we don't fight in the same category tbh... we are absolutely cool

Second year versus years of experience?

[Brazil]

Second year versus years of experience?

damn... he stole the ball of the hands of broken kobe ! nba is ed

[Chinook]

And you presented damned good reasoning for your opinion. Enough that I wouldn't argue the point. Just remember that I'm one of damned few here that will ever admit to something like that.

Kyle's first year wasn't much of a first year. He scored something like 70 points, and played in what, 30 or so games? I don't know if you play poker, but you're watching the cards, and I'm watching the man. I see the basketball reasons for what you're saying. I don't think Pop is going to put any more of these playoffs in Anderson's hands than he has to. He's always favored experience and steadiness, and it's worked out pretty good. But even so, he may not have any choice this time. You listed some pretty good reasons why.

One thing's for certain. When it comes to drafts or playoffs, Pop usually throws in a wrinkle or two that surprises most of us.

There are two main points of discussion in this thread: First, if Pop will shorten the rotation enough to not play a fourth wing. And second, if he doesn't which player will fill that slot.

I think we all know that for the first question, Pop will shorten his rotation a lot once the team is in a tight series. I think by the end of the 2013 Finals, Pop was using like seven guys. We also know that Pop will keep an extended rotation if he can get away with it (Pop played the fourth big/tenth man for 81 minutes over the course of the 2014 WCF). We can debate how likely it is that Pop will keep an extended rotation, but I can all probably all agree that it'll depend on some factors we don't know yet.

So the second question becomes the interesting one, as it literally Anderson versus the other options. When pitted against those guys, it's not as clear what Pop would do. By most metrics, Anderson's been the superior player, and he is the most tenured. He's also easier to plug into a lineup (he can play 2-4 credibly) and is hardest to game-plan against (too big for PGs, too crafty for bigs). Martin should get back on track as a better scorer, and even if he has his faults, that seems valuable. Miller has a great sense of himself as a basketball player and knows how to get the most out of his body. If we're strictly talking about someone to take the minutes Manu can't, he's not a bad option.

I think both points are worth debating. I just don't think people should concatenate them. Pop may shorten his rotation due to not trusting Anderson. But he's not going to throw out a guy who's been awful or who has no upside just to keep Kyle off the floor. Martin's only been to the playoffs twice in his career. His years shouldn't override the fact that he has no chemistry with his teammates. Miller's smart enough to where he has psuedo-chemistry with the team but does he make sense as the fifth option when he's used to being the ball-handler and can't really do much off the ball?

Anderson has fewer question marks than those guys. You know he'll give you deflections and rebounds. That's more than the other guys offer. I'm not saying Pop won't cut his minutes down to a minimum, but if there is a spot for a fourth wing, Anderson's more than earned the first crack at it.