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Kwame and Smush weren't on that team Kobe first led to the lottery Pablo
Not saying Butler is some all world player who makes anybody top 50 all time, but he is a solid 2nd/3rd option on any playoff team, the same with Odom. Butler was highly productive in LA, and even more so with the Wiz. Him, with Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison actually made the playoffs the following number of years. Sure it was the East, but we are talking about Kobe + Odom vs. Arenas + Jamison here. A guy who puts up 16/6/2 is a solid 2nd/3rd wheel on any team, and it's not like he did it because he was on a crappy team or something, he did even better with the Wiz who made the playoffs as a 2nd/3rd wheel role.
Odom, while not playing his best year, was productive as well. His advanced stats weren't great, but they were positive, and he did put up 15/10/4. Lebron James took players like Boobie Gibson and Mo Williams to the finals, and you are telling me Kobe can't even take a better cast to the playoffs?
MVPau took a similar castto the playoffs in the same year in the same conference, while the Lakers finished 11th, and 11 games behind the Grizzlies.
I semi agree, Olympics certainly meant something, and 04 was certainly a huge stain on Duncan's basketball legacy. But there are a few things though:
1) The 04 team was horribly constructed, there was no outside shooting to speak of, there were no real point guards, and the only guy who can create for others didn't really play (Lebron). It would be a great And1 tour team though, but on a basketball court? That team will lose to most NBA playoff teams in a series, especially given the cir stances (see 2)
2) Guards were having a field day on that team because the perimeter defense was horrible. The approach has always been "we are so much more talented than you so I will just outscore you". Didn't work at all. It was essentially AI and Starbury dribbling the air out of the ball and going 1 on 1 every freaking possession. Just horrible basketball overall
3) Duncan actually did well in the tournament (mediocre for him), especially considering that he was surrounded by defense and hacked all day. As a C, you need guards to feed you the ball. Iverson and Starbury don't feed nobody the ball.
4) The Puerto Rico game was the first game they played. Practices and together times were minimal, there were no plays.
5) the 2004 Argentina would have won a game, or at least made it very close, with the 2000 and 2008 US teams. Classic case of sum > parts, and basically the polar opposite of the US teams from a team approach (speculative)
As for the 88 team, they were boys amongst men. Robinson actually did pretty good in that tournament.
Over the course of the tournament, people make it sound like the US didn't make the tourny, or didnt' even get to the medal rounds. They did based on pure talent, but once they get to face up against similarly talented teams, their lack of team play and glaring weaknesses in team construction led to those failures. Much like how talented individuals will pretty much always make the playoffs in the NBA, but it takes team play to advance in the playoffs.
Comparing not winning the gold to not making the playoffs is laughable. You have one team winning the gold, you have 16 out of 30 teams making the playoffs.
And no, Kobe wasn't the leader on the 08 team. Lebron was.
I can take you word for it or should I take the word of the coach of the 2008 USA team?
You guys are so fond of the term alpha here is one of the most successful college and US coaches telling you who WAS the alpha in 2008.
You should also know alpha does NOT mean best player. Tim hasnt been the Spurs best players since 2007 but he was still the alpha and the leader until he retired. Some of you guys really dont know about how team dynamics truly work ... you cant determine alpha males by looking at win shares and adjusted for pace real plus/minus.
In London, Kobe was also an integral part of what we were doing and a key guy,” Krzyzewski said at USA Basketball training camp on Tuesday.
“But if we lose in Beijing, you’re not interviewing me right now. So I recognize that.”
Coach K noted that Kobe was ‘The Mamba’ down the stretch of the Gold Medal Game against Spain.
He scored 13 points and added two assists in the fourth quarter, including a huge four-point play that shifted momentum after Spain had cut the lead to two points. Coach K also believes that Kobe’s impact is still being felt today as he set the tone for bringing all of the top stars together:
“He was the alpha dog during ’08,” Krzyzewski said. “And we had a lot of other aspiring alpha dogs: LeBron, Carmelo and those guys. So how do you get that era and this era together? They did. “And then in London, you start adding (Kevin Durant) and (Russell) Westbrook. Now you have three eras of alpha dogs, and they got it together. But Kobe set an example for that. He’s smart. Really smart and good. I love him.”
Amb I thought Kobe was a horrible leader and team-mate?!
As for missing the playoffs vs. bronze ...They are both a stain and you can rank which one is worse and I wont even argue with you because a- you may be right but b seriously wgaf? We arguing whose smells worse here?
I will debate with you which one is more significant. That is definitely 2004. I can tell you this, most hoops fans remember the losses in 88, 90 and 2004. how many hoops fans remember what year Kobe missed the playoffs? It may be worse but definitely not more public a disgrace. Over 3.9 billion people watched parts of the Athens Olympic games ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 07-28-2016 at 02:14 PM.
Kwame and Smush weren't on that team Kobe first led to the lottery Pablo
From Lebron himself via Cleveland.com
The first play of the game he ran through the chest of Pau Gasol and got a flagrant. And Pau Gasol was his teammate with the Lakers. I was like, "Yeah, this guy is on another level." I loved it. I mean, [Gasol] wasn't my teammate, but I was like, you guys can find that clip and you'll see what I'm talking about. It was one of the first plays of the game. I was like, "This guy's all about winning and whoever he's playing for or who he's playing with at that point in time." He really forgot Pau was his teammate. Like he really forgot that he was about to see him in like three weeks in L.A. I swear. It was crazy.
Kobe influencing Kyrie and LeBron tbh ...
Leaders aren't shown when you are leading, it is shown in the face of adversity. It's easy for Kobe to be "I am alpha" on that team, he just crowbars himself in the situation because of his tenure in the league, and starts bossing people around. But when things turn sour, that's when try leaders step up. They don't go on a tirade demanding trades or throwing their teammates under the bus publicly, they work with them and make them excel in their roles. Kobe never did that.I can take you word for it or should I take the word of the coach of the 2008 USA team?
You guys are so fond of the term alpha here is one of the most successful college and US coaches telling you who WAS the alpha in 2008.
You should also know alpha does NOT mean best player. Tim hasnt been the Spurs best players since 2007 but he was still the alpha and the leader until he retired. Some of you guys really dont know about how team dynamics truly work ... you cant determine alpha males by looking at win shares and adjusted for pace real plus/minus.
In London, Kobe was also an integral part of what we were doing and a key guy,” Krzyzewski said at USA Basketball training camp on Tuesday.
“But if we lose in Beijing, you’re not interviewing me right now. So I recognize that.”
Coach K noted that Kobe was ‘The Mamba’ down the stretch of the Gold Medal Game against Spain.
He scored 13 points and added two assists in the fourth quarter, including a huge four-point play that shifted momentum after Spain had cut the lead to two points. Coach K also believes that Kobe’s impact is still being felt today as he set the tone for bringing all of the top stars together:
“He was the alpha dog during ’08,” Krzyzewski said. “And we had a lot of other aspiring alpha dogs: LeBron, Carmelo and those guys. So how do you get that era and this era together? They did. “And then in London, you start adding (Kevin Durant) and (Russell) Westbrook. Now you have three eras of alpha dogs, and they got it together. But Kobe set an example for that. He’s smart. Really smart and good. I love him.”
You can call him the alpha when all he did was show Team USA how to win, when the team had way more talent than any other team, and there were actually thoughts in constructing the team this time around. Seriously, team USA would still have won without Kobe showing them how to. It's that simple.
And yes, Kobe is smart, extremely smart. He pulled himself from the stinking pile in 2004 when he knew that team was going to be horrible. Duncan just wanted to help turn a pile of crap into gold, but was able to turn it to bronze.
Still do. The guys get to spend a few weeks with Kobe, young guys, enamored by the rings, even when they were beta rings. I don't blame them. Who else were they going to "look up" to? Of course they look up to the oldest guy. But did he provide any value to the team as a leader? Not really.
A bronze isn't . Not being qualified for the tournament would be akin to missing the playoffs.As for missing the playoffs vs. bronze ...They are both a stain and you can rank which one is worse and I wont even argue with you because a- you may be right but b seriously wgaf? We arguing whose smells worse here?
They remember because they are uneducated and unknowledgeable that a team actually needs some kind of construction. Was it shocking? Sure it was, because everybody expected the US to just waltz through the tourney based on pure talent, and underestimated the importance of team play. They still do, that's why they still put the blame on one person who played well, trying to drag the corpse of the other 11 members with him.
Lebron just called him crazy. Of course he loves it because he can see MVPau having enough of this Kobe fake leadership and leaving the lakers, he can see Kobe throwing the real MVP under the bus to hog glory and break up a team that has the potential to win more championships. it weakens his opponents, and of course Lebron loves it.
And Lebron is right, Kobe forgot MVPau was his teammate, most of the time, Kobe forgot he had any teammates at all.
Lol again the coach of the team called him the alpha and the player you said (LeBron) was the leader... an aspiring alpha along with Melo.
You cannot win this one we have your wall of words and Kobe bias vs. a direct quote from Coach K.
I win.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 07-28-2016 at 03:53 PM.
So salty
Good stuff tbh amb
Sure but he still lost ...Good stuff tbh amb
Says who?
He said Lebron was the leader Coach K said otherwise.
On that point he lost.
He knows it so the went back to the wall of words and his comfort zone ... his notebook on Kobe
Kobe wasn't the leader of that team, I know that much
Your opinion doesn't matter more than Coach K's either neither does mine.Kobe wasn't the leader of that team, I know that much
I also would have said Lebron was the leader ...
I highly doubt that's really his opinion though, tbh...it's just one of those questions they answer with something the media wants/expects to hear so they avoid creating a fuss. I mean recently coach K has said that Melo is this current team's leader
Just think, Flavio: even Tim's bronze medal is better than anything Team Mexico has done in recent memory. That's why you have to bandwagon the U.S. in basketball, just like you did in life.
Mexico has as many Gold Medals as Jim
Coach K stated on many occasions that Kobe set the tone for that 2008 Olympic team. Kobe taught them how to defend, even in practice. He obviously influenced LeBron. Fact: I'll guarantee you LeBron didn't make one all defensive team prior to the 2008 Olympic games...and that was his 5th year in the association. Kobe? Made his first all defensive team after his 3rd year. #KOBEEFFECT
Melo has more Gold Medals than JimI highly doubt that's really his opinion though, tbh...it's just one of those questions they answer with something the media wants/expects to hear so they avoid creating a fuss. I mean recently coach K has said that Melo is this current team's leader
You may have issues understanding what is meant by alpha and what is meant by a leader.
An alpha is the guy who comes in and gets his share no matter what. Doesn't necessarily means that they move a team forward and help out a team. You should know because you have seen Magic and Jabbar at work, two clear leaders. Of course, an alpha can be a leader as well, Jordan is a great example of that, but somebody being an alpha isn't necessarily a leader. It may be hard to comprehend for you, but alpha is a behaviour, leadership is a trait. Anybody can crowbar themselves and act all alpha with fake bravado and such, and notice Coach K didn't say leader, because he knew the difference.
Also, it's quite sad you have devolved to that I win you win junk. Win what? You got an award for it?
About what? That he submarined the Lakers franchise not once, but twice?
Thanks for telling the world how stupid your shtick is.Melo has more Gold Medals than Jim
Horry 7, MJ 6 etc...Melo has more Gold Medals than Jim
Terrible, you can do better than that Héctor
No one ever said Kobe wasn't a great player. They've said he was a piece of as a person, no one liked him and that's why he spent the last 4 years of his NBA life in NBA purgatory while the rest of his "peers" ate popcorn and watched him rot away.
The Lakers are likely ed for the next 3 or 4 years. That's the real #KOBEEFFECT.
Of course coaches are going to praise him as long as they are getting paid still. His own coach called him uncoachable.
So does Christian Laettner.Melo has more Gold Medals than Jim
highlights:
Rooting for Kobe and Coach K is like rooting for the house in blackjack.
It never stops feeling wrong, and you never stop secretly wanting to turn on them. (for perspective)
Not one, not two but three festering Team USA weaknesses bubbled up.
First, they lacked a KG-like defender who could patrol the paint and fix every lapse on D, as well as a Bruce Bowen-like perimeter stopper to squash high screens. And guess what: The Swayzes worked over the Howard/Bosh combo, and Navarro killed the U.S. on the same high screen at least 45 times.
Second, Coach K kept starting a washed-up Jason Kidd (can't shoot, can't play slash-and-kick) over Chris Paul and Deron Williams (only the two best American point guards right now). This was the elephant in the room for two weeks.
Third, for most of the Games, Team USA had an alpha dog issue. Was this Kobe's team or LeBron's? Fast-forward to 8:13 left: Fernández's three cuts the lead to two; the crowd is going bonkers. Spain's bench reacts like a euphoric 15-seed during a March Madness upset, and the U.S. calls timeout. All along, my biggest fear had been a tight game and multiple USA guys saying, "I got it!" Instead, everyone deferred to Kobe, who made some monster plays to clinch it. Know that in the history of the NBA we have never had the best-player-alive argument resolved so organically. Incredible. Kobe, you have the Lord of the Flies conch. Use it wisely.
Had the Americans blown this one, the Choke Job Hall of Fame would have a new wing. Kobe, Bron, Wade and Coach K would have been stained forever {sound familiar I hate when I sound like Simmons} (not to mention Howard, whose stock slipped at a Bear Stearns speed in the medal round).
And that's why I hope neither NBA TV nor ESPN Classic ever replays this game. It belongs to me and the lucky few who watched it live and sweated it out. God bless America. , I might even start rooting for Coach K and Kobe after this.
(On second thought … nah.)
even if BS is a colorful writer and tbh overrated he knows hoops. He hates Kobe and Coach K and still aligned with what I said and Coach K echoed the same.
You can spin this as much as you want ...
but it's clear Kobe was the alpha and ONE of the leaders of Team USA.
If that is not enough from Woj
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...be-bryant.html
Nike tried so hard to make LeBron James a co-star of these Games but failed miserably. He’s riding shotgun and doesn’t seem terribly thrilled about it. There’s no usurping Bryant in China. Bryant has won the respect of his teammates, but he doesn’t run in the big cliques on the team. LeBron is the ringleader of the young players, and Kobe goes his own way. He’s won his teammates over with his ferocity, his insatiable need to win, but no one ever gets close to Bryant. He’s a loner, but he learned to lead. When all was breaking loose in the semifinal victory over Argentina, it was Bryant working with Jason Kidd to bring his teammates back from the brink of losing composure. "We didn’t come to tussle," Bryant said. "We came to win a gold medal."
From Chris sheridan:
It was Kobe's presence on Team USA that upped the ante. While LeBron "led through his words and actions at practice and on the team bus," Chris Sheridan reported, "Bryant led through his work ethic." Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and LeBron got a firsthand view of Kobe's workout. The impression was lasting.
Again I could pull so many more ... but should I take your word as biased fan or the words of Woj, Simmons, Sheridan 3 accomplished writers with press credentials that Follow the NBA?
Again you cannot win this. Just take the L and move on. I have cited direct quotes on alpha and leadership.
you keep resorting to bringing up the Lakers or even dirt about Kobe but this is about Team USA 2008.
Kobe was the alpha of the Redeem team 2008.
Duncan was the alpha of the team that lost to Carlos Arroyo.
I am not saying this means Kobe is greater like the OP is. In fact I have Duncan slightly ahead of Kobe career-wise.
But Team USA wise it's not close and it goes the other way.
But these are the facts and I have cited plenty of supporting evidence while you post emotional opinions and went off track ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 07-29-2016 at 10:27 AM.
Very interesting especially considering you talked about this wall of text issue with me, but since you seemed to be OK with WoT now, I am game.
So they are clear favourites from the get go despite what happened in 2004, thanks for clarifying.
Dwight disagrees. Lebron, Tayshaun and Kidd disagrees.
And Kidd was integral in a championship team 3 years later. Go figure.
So Kobe ballhogs, we knew this.
And that one single game where Kobe actually contributed. he sucked overall in the tourny.
Yeah, it was a stain on Duncan in 2004, but so what? We already agreed to it. We are arguing about Kobe the leader.
Yeah, he ballhogs and crowbars to take credit as a front runner, we knew that.
Kidd, Lebron, Wade, were leaders too if you want to. 4 leaders on a team of squeaked out a win vs. Spain is a career highlight for Kobe then. Good for you.
Doesn't work with his team, trying to do his own way. Not a leader at all.
He works hard! Great. So did Chris Mullin.
You have serious comprehension issues with what is a leader. Some guy who ballhogs, undercut their teammates, got respect because he is the elder statesman and works hard isn't being a leader.
Leadership, where?
Kobe coattail rode the talent in 2008, Duncan dragged a deeply flawed team in 2004. Another example where people put Dennis Johnson as better than Stockton because one won the ring as the alpha, and the other didn't.
From durant on Team USA via NBA.com
He was coming off a First Team All-NBA season that saw him rank second in the NBA in scoring with 27.9 points per game. As the elder statesman on a U.S. roster featuring the likes of Durant, Anthony and James, Bryant also deferred to the younger stars by taking only the fourth-most shots on the team.
“Kobe Bryant’s done so much in this league,” Durant said. “He didn’t have to play. He wanted to. He came out here and sacrificed everything. In 2012 he was just the greatest, man. He was a great leader. He didn’t care about shots — none of that stuff. He wanted to help us win and he was passionate about it.”
Spin that Amb !!!
Last edited by Killakobe81; 07-29-2016 at 10:47 AM.
Read the posts you quoted then come back and keep taking the L.
I dont have the comprehension issue you do.
Durant disagrees.
Melo too.
LeBron
Coach K
Simmons
Sheridan
Woj.
Again you are talking about Laker related . This is team USA. Without Kobe they lose. coach K said that himself.
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