Suns: So how overrated is Nash?

[313]

Has there ever been a ST debate that ended with one side conceding the point to the other?

[FkLA]

Has there ever been a ST debate that ended with one side conceding the point to the other?

Diaw > Lee

[namlook]

- useless "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fastbreaks

- "bullet" passes to teammates left alone under the basket

- "Court vision", thanks to smaller players guarding him

- Inflated assists numbers : entry pass to Kareem, he takes in the defense, fakes right, swings left, dribble-dribble, right handed hook. Assist: Magic.

- Put Rodman on him and all he does is entry pass to Kareem

AFAIC, Bird, Isiah, Price, KJ and Stockton were better passers

Not sure what Magic did to piss you off but you sound like a hater. I saw Magic play live in his prime as well as all of those other players you claim were better. Magic made plays that were jaw dropping and none of the players you listed were better passers than Magic. Magic would change the momentum of a game based on his passing alone and leave everyone watching with a look of astonishment on their face.

[-21-]

Diaw > Lee

Is Diaw>Lee right now though? David Lee has played well so far, certainly better than Diaw was last year right?

[Arcadian]

Idk...he could shoot the 3, suck in the defense with dribble penetration, dish it like a maestro, and orchestrated one of the most prolific offenses in NBA history (and one of the best teams to NOT win a le)...that's gotta be worth something.

[spurraider21]

Nash was overrated at the time, but he has been so over-criticized that he's probably under-appreciated, at this point IMO..

nailed it. he's the anti tyson chandler

[lefty]

Not sure what Magic did to piss you off but you sound like a hater. I saw Magic play live in his prime as well as all of those other players you claim were better. Magic made plays that were jaw dropping and none of the players you listed were better passers than Magic. Magic would change the momentum of a game based on his passing alone and leave everyone watching with a look of astonishment on their face.

I dont hate him, but his passing game is still overrated tbh

[ambchang]

You're talking in circles...

In my first post I acknowledged the base numbers likely being overrated because of usage and system. But the underlying skills as being under appreciated.

We agree on the first part, but not the second. Nash is a 2-time MVP, known as one of the greatest offensive weapon the league has seen, how would that be underrating him?

I then suggested that D'Antoni was a vastly overrated coach because he could only do that one thing. And that one thing created stats. Without Nash, his thing produces stats and pedestrian win totals. Nash, meanwhile was in four Conference Finals with three coaches and three different systems.

I then cited that Gentry's teams with less true talent but more effective roles, was more efficient, offensively, defensively, shooting, etc.

You keep saying "pace and space" like that's some goddamn bingo that claims you a win.

Suns 2010 offensive 4 factors:
eFG%: .546 (ranked 1st)
TOV%: 13.6% (ranked 17th)
OREB%: 27.6% (ranked 10th)
FT/FGA: .240 (ranked 10th)

Suns 2005 offensive 4 factors:
eFG% .534 (ranked 1st)
TOV:: 12.4 (ranked 3rd)
OREB%: 27.5 (ranked 22nd)
FT/FGA: .222 (ranked 24th)

Numbers are relatively similar. Gentry's team crashed the boards more and shot more FTs, but those we already know. From an offensive efficiency perspective, they were very close.

Yes, Nash and pace and space were common denominators with D'Antoni/Gentry, but you have don't absolutely nothing to backup the claim that they were the same, or were used the same.

I've said a dozen different "tweaks" as you put it.

These tweaks are evolved, and fundamentally adjust tooth the intent and the outcome of the offense. You even admit to this, but either can't make the connection that such changes your argument, or ignore that it does.

So Gentry took what D'antoni made successful using Nash, and tweaked it to make it better, it still goes back to the original point that D'antoni made Nash what Nash is, and then Gentry capitalized and continued with that.

Nash was a PG. Of course he's going to be a PG in each system. He's a PG who works best in a fast-paced tempo, and with the ball in his hands. So of course he's going to be utilized that way. Especially after the failed Terry Porter era.

But you simply fail to understand the difference twist D'Antoni and Gentry.

I understand it. I am not saying they are the same, I am saying Gentry used Nash like D'antoni did, and that made Nash overrated.

I've explained it.

The fact you ignore "chaos" when D'Antoni literally used the word to describe his offensive philosophy proves just how little you understood what you thought you saw.

The Nash Suns team was way more structured than chaos. This idea that D'antoni just gave the ball to Nash and let him run amok is untrue. He spaced the floor and used high pick and rolls constantly to create more space for penetration, with usually 2 to 3 3 pt shooters on the outside stretching the floor. It's actually a rather simple offense at the root of it.

[ambchang]

djohn addressed it. Look through my posts, you wil seel that 99% of the ones regarding Harden have STRONG criticisms. This was probably the first one where I have defended him, to put matters into perspective.

How? Harden is a great passing SG, but a 12apg PG? It's a product of D'antoni

[sook]

How? Harden is a great passing SG, but a 12apg PG? It's a product of D'antoni

You made an assertion with nothing to back it up other than your personal opinion that you think its absurd. Great strategy, you've been shot down by everybody in this thread

[djohn2oo8]

You made an assertion with nothing to back it up other than your personal opinion that you think its absurd. Great strategy, you've been shot down by everybody in this thread

You would think Harden only averaged 3 apg then jumped to 12 with the way chang is trying to argue.

[djohn2oo8]

How? Harden is a great passing SG, but a 12apg PG? It's a product of D'antoni

Capela has gotten better at finishing near the rim. That is one reason Harden's assists are going up, instead of passing to Dwight in the post where he would get stripped.

[ambchang]

You made an assertion with nothing to back it up other than your personal opinion that you think its absurd. Great strategy, you've been shot down by everybody in this thread

Summoning everybody again. .

Harden played 8 seasons, never averaged even 10 assists per 100 possessions. Then this year he got dantoni as a coach and suddenly averages 17 ap 100, despite similar usage rates as the last two seasons, so it must be because he got better teammates. You and everybody are brilliant.

[ambchang]

You would think Harden only averaged 3 apg then jumped to 12 with the way chang is trying to argue.

Capela has gotten better at finishing near the rim. That is one reason Harden's assists are going up, instead of passing to Dwight in the post where he would get stripped.

Yeah, because the nba has historically been littered with players who averages 5 more assists a game with pretty much the same usage rate in b2b seasons.

And that Capella comment is just . Capella gets 3 more fgs than last year and his assisted rate went from 67% to 87%. So last year about 3.7 of his fgs were assisted while this year it's about 7. That gives a difference of 4. Even if Howard gives zero assists to harden last year, and all of the assists to capella was due to harden, which we and everybody know is not true, it still doesn't give 5.

That argument is just

[sook]

Summoning everybody again. .

Harden played 8 seasons, never averaged even 10 assists per 100 possessions. Then this year he got dantoni as a coach and suddenly averages 17 ap 100, despite similar usage rates as the last two seasons, so it must be because he got better teammates. You and everybody are brilliant.

I'm not going to do your work for you, the answer to what you are seeking is too obvious. Start by putting it into context. I don't expect you to get all of it since you haven't followed the team closely enough but you're putting yourself in a position where you think you do so fair game.

[ambchang]

I'm not going to do your work for you, the answer to what you are seeking is too obvious. Start by putting it into context. I don't expect you to get all of it since you haven't followed the team closely enough but you're putting yourself in a position where you think you do so fair game.

Is everybody going to help me out on this? I am trying to up this in context, a player, in his NINTH year, suddenly got a 70+% jump in assists per possession, with a team he has played on for 5 years, and with quality of teammates who are more or less on par, or arguably worse, than those of the last two years. The only obvious change is that he is now playing PG vs. SG with a coach who has a history of having PGs putting up career numbers playing with him, which is most definitely a product of the system.

[djohn2oo8]

Is everybody going to help me out on this? I am trying to up this in context, a player, in his NINTH year, suddenly got a 70+% jump in assists per possession, with a team he has played on for 5 years, and with quality of teammates who are more or less on par, or arguably worse, than those of the last two years. The only obvious change is that he is now playing PG vs. SG with a coach who has a history of having PGs putting up career numbers playing with him, which is most definitely a product of the system.

So who was playing PG the last few years? Who handled the ball primarily for the past few years?

[djohn2oo8]

Product of the system. D'antoni's teams are usually run and gun. The Rockets are not. At least not yet.

[djohn2oo8]

But hold on. Amb is arguing that Harden's assists went up because he switched to "PG" which he has always been the de facto PG. So averaging 7 assists per game as a SG would actually mean its not a product of the system.

[ambchang]

So who was playing PG the last few years? Who handled the ball primarily for the past few years?

Thank you for proving my point even further.

Product of the system. D'antoni's teams are usually run and gun. The Rockets are not. At least not yet.

The system is to have the PG make almost all offensive decisions, aiming to have the PG either make or create the shot.

But hold on. Amb is arguing that Harden's assists went up because he switched to "PG" which he has always been the de facto PG. So averaging 7 assists per game as a SG would actually mean its not a product of the system.

I am arguing that Nash got inflated numbers, and part of that proof is Harden's number shot up with the same coach. Please try to follow along instead of being blinded by rage.

[djohn2oo8]

The system is to have the PG make almost all offensive decisions, aiming to have the PG either make or create the shot.

Isn't that any offensive system? Isn't that the job of a PG?

I am arguing that Nash got inflated numbers, and part of that proof is Harden's number shot up with the same coach. Please try to follow along instead of being blinded by rage.

Shot up 5 assists per game? Playing at a slower pace than last year? Christ you are re ed.

[ambchang]

Isn't that any offensive system? Isn't that the job of a PG?

No, unless you are going back to the Bob Cousy days. A PG isn't supposed to be there to either make or create the shot since a long long time ago.

Shot up 5 assists per game? Playing at a slower pace than last year? Christ you are re ed.

And the common thread is the system that is implemented where Harden is placed in a role where he is supposed to dominate every single offensive possession, ie. a product of the system.

So what is the magic that allowed Harden to suddenly have 5 more assists a game, at a slower pace, with similar types of players around him, and with a similar usage rate as the last 2 seasons?

[djohn2oo8]

And the common thread is the system that is implemented where Harden is placed in a role where he is supposed to dominate every single offensive possession, ie. a product of the system.

So what is the magic that allowed Harden to suddenly have 5 more assists a game, at a slower pace, with similar types of players around him, and with a similar usage rate as the last 2 seasons?

I'm going to ask you this. What is the system? It's more than just letting Harden play PG. It's a system where 3 point shooting is primarily emphasized, and that has how it has been since Harden and before he was here. But here is the main thing that's allowing for Harden to have better assist numbers. Pick and roll. They never ran it with Dwight because he never wanted to run it. They run it a lot now, no Dwight = pick and roll where Harden is already great at it. THAT is the system. Funny how Capela and Harden are much more in sync than Dwight and Harden were, it's because Capela is very willing to pick and roll and set hard screens, which obviously opens up other players from 3.

[Chillen]

He is not overrated, one of the best passers I have ever seen play the game and very high BBall IQ. Very good offensively, defensively he was just average. Except for one playoffs, the Spurs always gave the Nash's Suns fits. They had a chance to win it all though if they could have beaten that 2010 Lakers team.

[lefty]

More MVPs than Kobe and Shaq

No le though