Shooters, Shooters and more shooters

[dabom]

I'm done for tonight. Go ahead with the last word. I don't care. Too tired.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Your comprehension is terrible and most of these takes are wrong.

Teams never just leave players open without any effort to contest, they contest to some degree -- you can still contest a shot you want a player to take.

1) Irrelevant with my take. The weakside perimeter D is never the guy(s) who would rotate to the PnPop PF like they would rotate to defend the paint for divers. The player who would rotate to Aldridge or West was usually the big involved in the PnR who hedged and recovered back on Aldridge/West and still contested but the good teams would hardly over contest leaving their feet. Ibaka did a few times that drew fouls but he cleaned that up as the series went on.
2) Never compared Splitter to Aldridge. Brought up the point that Aldridge started diving more towards the end of the year-- which helped. But my point remains that Spurs had 48 minutes of the Pick and Pop action having West incorporated in the overall offense along with Aldridge. West was the bigger problem because he played the 2nd most minutes out of any other big the Spurs had going into game 6.
3) I didn't ignore Duncans decline this past year, re-read the post you quoted. Duncan regained mobility the year after the Grizzlies series they lost in the 1st round and became a very effective diver -- go back and watch the games.

Here's examples of Duncan's rolling during the 14' run:

Here is one possession from PnR roll set w/ TD that still is remembered today and its all because of Duncan rolling attracting the D in the paint.



Here are many different possessions showing the Spurs' ball-movement but if you notice, after every screen Duncan set he rolled, as did Diaw and the other bigs



In 14' Pop got on TD after a few plays Duncan wanted the ball after he didn't roll. It's clear as day that Pop is telling TD to roll.

1) When one of the primary defenders goes back to defend its called a recovery not a rotation. Again teams would still rotate to defend.
2) West replaced Baynes. Baynes was hit or miss on the catch as the roll man and much better on the pick and pop.

You should watch the tapes and try and keep up with your own arguments. Forest, tree and all that. Your myth of bigs sagging always into the paint to take away the roll man and give up the long 2 for 'good defense' is absent. Your ideology doesn't hold to reality as you have clearly demonstrated. Of course Duncan would roll when the defense hedged like that. Pretending that's not how several 'good defenses' play the pnr is pretty ignorant frankly

[FuzzyLumpkins]

what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

Because he exemplifies how it's done. That was my point.

I was figuring you were saying that Manu was not in the same role offensively because that would actually be a decent argument. Instead your making ty excuses like being a two way player means he cannot pass. Thank goodness it's not an excuse he's likely to accept.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I could drop another diss track cause you taking for ever, got.

If you want a real time conversation then go find a chat room. I'm mul asking.

[MaNu4Tres]

1) When one of the primary defenders goes back to defend its called a recovery not a rotation. Again teams would still rotate to defend.
2) West replaced Baynes. Baynes was hit or miss on the catch as the roll man and much better on the pick and pop.

You should watch the tapes and try and keep up with your own arguments. Forest, tree and all that. Your myth of bigs sagging always into the paint to take away the roll man and give up the long 2 for 'good defense' is absent. Your ideology doesn't hold to reality as you have clearly demonstrated. Of course Duncan would roll when the defense hedged like that. Pretending that's not how several 'good defenses' play the pnr is pretty ignorant frankly

1. I know its a recovery, I was saying the weakside perimeter defense doesn't rotate over to contest the long 2 PnPop from the PF -- its the big involved in the PnR that hedges/recovers.

2. Baynes barely played when it mattered. Pop utilized a three big rotation those years 12'-14' mainly with Splitter, Duncan, Diaw -- Baynes would get time when game was out of reach or limited spot minutes when TD or Splitter were in foul trouble. Duncan and Diaw were non-existent this past run and Pop went heavy with Aldridge and West got the 2nd most time in the rotation going into Duncans finale.


Lol you just said Duncan didn't have the mobility to dive and wasn't a diver during those years and now you're back peddling after I just proved how wrong you were.

I never once said bigs sag in the paint to take away the roll man and just stay there giving up long 2's with no effort to contest -- you're making up. Good defensive teams induce the pass to go to the long pick and pop two by making an emphasis with hedging the play-maker in the PnR and then recovering on the pick and Pop long 2 ( still contesting but still giving up the shot). The weak-side defense isn't involved to defend that action. The two defensive players involved in the PNR can defend it effectively enough and the defense doesn't have to move as much compared to how much they have to move when the offense has an effective play-maker, diver and shooters around them.

[GSH]

Teams never just leave players open without any effort to contest, they contest to some degree -- you can still contest shots you want the offense to take.

There were times last year when teams just stood and dared Tim to take the shot. That's just fact. If there was some little of nuance there to call a contest, it was irrelevant. There were also some times when they did just about the same thing with Danny. I even remember Sean commenting that he had "too much time to shoot that one".

For years, teams were forced to double Tim virtually all the time. Not just helping, but a lot of hard double-teams. That, plus his exceptional passing ability, got the Spurs more open 3-point looks than anything they before or since.

What FuzzyLumpkins said above about Kawhi emerging as a scorer, but not stepping up his ability to distribute? True statement. He never said the team would have been better off without him (dip Dabom is great about putting words in others' mouths). What he said was that Kawhi caused the offense to stagnate at times, with the over-dribbling, and forcing the ball into a crowd to finally jack up a bad shot. The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

[dabom]

Tony Porker can't defend, pass, score, rebound, steal, deflect, shoot the 3.

Yeah we should talk about Kawhi like he stagnated the offense.

[GSH]

All I know is our offense only players didn't perform. Kawhi gets an A++. Your team needs to show up too.

"That's a sucking call!"
"Did you call me a sucker?"
"No I didn't. I said it was a sucking call!"

[dabom]

I should add injury prone at the most opportune times.

[MaNu4Tres]

There were times last year when teams just stood and dared Tim to take the shot. That's just fact. If there was some little of nuance there to call a contest, it was irrelevant. There were also some times when they did just about the same thing with Danny. I even remember Sean commenting that he had "too much time to shoot that one".

For years, teams were forced to double Tim virtually all the time. Not just helping, but a lot of hard double-teams. That, plus his exceptional passing ability, got the Spurs more open 3-point looks than anything they before or since.

What FuzzyLumpkins said above about Kawhi emerging as a scorer, but not stepping up his ability to distribute? True statement. He never said the team would have been better off without him (dip Dabom is great about putting words in others' mouths). What he said was that Kawhi caused the offense to stagnate at times, with the over-dribbling, and forcing the ball into a crowd to finally jack up a bad shot. The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

I was never talking about Tim in Pick and Pop opportunities this past year. After December, he couldn't roll effectively and every time he got the ball when he popped after setting the screen he'd immediately look to a dribble hand off option to reset the offense or to get the offense moving -- it was a time killer and an offense killer more often that not. Were their times when Tim looked for a shot out of that action? Sure, but most of the time he immediately looked to a dribble hand off option.

I never talked about Kawhi and his game. My whole point in multiple posts was about Spurs lack of a diver this past year was a big reason why Spurs weren't able to manufacturer as many open looks from 3 as the previous years. Fuzzy said that was horse and said TD was never a diver then pointed to Kawhi's overdribbling -- the overdribbling is true to an extent but a lot of his possessions were in PnR's and he never had an effective diver last year to create open looks on the weakside to actually make a purposeful passes. Again my argument was never about Kawhi. It was about the Spurs' offense inability to make the defense move, the weakside defense especially. The only way to break down a defense without a premier perimeter creator is to get the defense to move and the only way to get the defense to move collectively is to make the weak-side opportuntiies relevant again. Having 48 minutes of Pick and Pop action isn't conducive to ball-movement and weak-side action.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1. I know its a recovery, I was saying the weakside perimeter defense doesn't rotate over to contest the long 2 PnPop from the PF -- its the big involved in the PnR that hedges/recovers.

2. Baynes barely played when it mattered. Pop utilized a three big rotation those years 12'-14' mainly with Splitter, Duncan, Diaw -- Baynes would get time when game was out of reach or limited spot minutes when TD or Splitter were in foul trouble. Duncan and Diaw were non-existent this past run and Pop went heavy with Aldridge and West got the 2nd most time in the rotation going into Duncans finale.


Lol you just said Duncan didn't have the mobility to dive and wasn't a diver during those years and now you're back peddling after I just proved how wrong you were.

I never once said bigs sag in the paint to take away the roll man and just stay there giving up long 2's with no effort to contest -- you're making up. Good defensive teams induce the pass to go to the long pick and pop two by making an emphasis with hedging the play-maker in the PnR and then recovering on the pick and Pop long 2 ( still contesting but still giving up the shot). The weak-side defense isn't involved to defend that action. The two defensive players involved in the PNR can defend it effectively enough and the defense doesn't have to move as much compared to how much they have to move when the offense has an effective play-maker, diver and shooters around them.

1. Ideology is boring. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Fact is that even the best statistical defense would.

2. Then Diaw taking a is the primary issue and nothing to do with West.

LOL thinking that when the defense hedges doubling the ballhandler on pnr leaving Duncan alone means that when he rolls to the basket it makes him a good roll man. Show me the footage of him rolling against ICE coverage.

The hedge takes away the pnp as the doubling big stays up high and is in position to take away the jumper as well as making the pnp pass hard as ; he's right there ffs. The wide open jumper off the pnp requires the big to sag else the roll isn't taken away.

Fact is that when the defense packs the paint like they did against LMA and Parker, you need to shoot over the top. LMA has expanded his range into a 35% 3P shooter his last season in Portland. I think Pop tried to pare down the offense and keep it simple but I would not be surprised if he went back to that this year. You may get your desired 3pers after all.

[dabom]

1. Ideology is boring. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Fact is that even the best statistical defense would.

2. Then Diaw taking a is the primary issue and nothing to do with West.

LOL thinking that when the defense hedges doubling the ballhandler on pnr leaving Duncan alone means that when he rolls to the basket it makes him a good roll man. Show me the footage of him rolling against ICE coverage.

The hedge takes away the pnp as the doubling big stays up high and is in position to take away the jumper as well as making the pnp pass hard as ; he's right there ffs. The wide open jumper off the pnp requires the big to sag else the roll isn't taken away.

Fact is that when the defense packs the paint like they did against LMA and Parker, you need to shoot over the top. LMA has expanded his range into a 35% 3P shooter his last season in Portland. I think Pop tried to pare down the offense and keep it simple but I would not be surprised if he went back to that this year. You may get your desired 3pers after all.

I don't think he made a 3 last year. I never saw one atleast.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I was never talking about Tim in Pick and Pop opportunities this past year. After December, he couldn't roll effectively and every time he got the ball when he popped after setting the screen he'd immediately look to a dribble hand off option to reset the offense or to get the offense moving -- it was a time killer and an offense killer more often that not. Were their times when Tim looked for a shot out of that action? Sure, but most of the time he immediately looked to a dribble hand off option.

I never talked about Kawhi and his game. My whole point in multiple posts was about Spurs lack of a diver this past year was a big reason why Spurs weren't able to manufacturer as many open looks from 3 as the previous years. Fuzzy said that was horse and said TD was never a diver then pointed to Kawhi's overdribbling -- the overdribbling is true to an extent but a lot of his possessions were in PnR's and he never had an effective diver last year to create open looks on the weakside to actually make a purposeful passes. Again my argument was never about Kawhi. It was about the Spurs' offense inability to make the defense move, the weakside defense especially. The only way to break down a defense without a premier perimeter creator is to get the defense to move and the only way to get the defense to move collectively is to make the weak-side opportuntiies relevant again. Having 48 minutes of Pick and Pop action isn't conducive to ball-movement and weak-side action.

You and your binary logic. Duncan's mobility has been severely limited this decade. That doesn't mean he cannot roll to the basket when his man leaves him to hedge hard on the ball handler or that he can never have success.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

[/B]
I don't think he made a 3 last year. I never saw one atleast.

Last season in Portland. Paring down means that he limited what LMA was to do whereas in year 2 they could very well expand. After all his last season in Portland he showed a decent proficiency at the shot.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There were times last year when teams just stood and dared Tim to take the shot. That's just fact. If there was some little of nuance there to call a contest, it was irrelevant. There were also some times when they did just about the same thing with Danny. I even remember Sean commenting that he had "too much time to shoot that one".

For years, teams were forced to double Tim virtually all the time. Not just helping, but a lot of hard double-teams. That, plus his exceptional passing ability, got the Spurs more open 3-point looks than anything they before or since.

What FuzzyLumpkins said above about Kawhi emerging as a scorer, but not stepping up his ability to distribute? True statement. He never said the team would have been better off without him (dip Dabom is great about putting words in others' mouths). What he said was that Kawhi caused the offense to stagnate at times, with the over-dribbling, and forcing the ball into a crowd to finally jack up a bad shot. The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

[SAGirl]

This is all good stuff, but there's really basic stuff that fired up my "Pop is officially done..." thread last season, and is seeing like Pop putting Manu to guard Westbrook...

I'm probably the #1 Manu fan in here, but stuff like that is not just ridiculous at this point in time, but sickening. You can't pretend a 38/39 year old in the twilight of his career to matchup to that athletic beast. Pop somehow did.

I don't know what kind of wine he was drinking during that series, but if he goes back to it, all this talk about shooters and Kawhi, LMA... Dedmon... it doesn't matter.

I'm actually hoping the realization that Tim isn't walking through that door anymore actually removes him from seemingly some sort of auto-pilot he's been on since 2014. It took a catastrophic loss in the Finals to get his attention, hopefully one positive thing that comes from Tim retiring, is Pop waking the up again.

If Pop is smart Manu will have a reduced role, spotting up more and helping guys improve rather than having to do things himself. Simmons and Dejounte are the athletes here and if they are not up to it (Simmons specially bc he's 27, a grown ass man at this point and if he doesn't show up this season he might as well not stick around. He needs to make it and will be very motivated). I disagree that it will be the same old wing rotation as always it can't be. It obviously depends on the young players improving and getting better but if they don't in reality we don't have a chance. Manu can't be the man at 39. He just can't. He should be played accordingly, not guarding the freakiest athlete and not having to be the one running PnR bc his passes are very predictable at this point.

[YGWHI]

The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

No. That's not what happened.

In fact, it was the opposite.

If you look his numbers at making tough shots, you should know how extremely effective he was, and how wrong you are about "a lot more didn't go"

What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly

Pretty regulary? You're ignoring the fact that Kawhi had way better stats at ball handler on P&R than Parker and Manu last regular season..

But of course, he just took bad shots all season.

[DAF86]

Agree. We need shooters.

[coachmac87]

Spurs facing a team with the philosophy that I suggested back in the summer...

It's going to be interesting to see how Spurs react/adjust to Houston going even smaller with possibly adding Gordon to SL.

**I also feel this will hopefully be a personnel direction PATFO go in finding more shooters..especially to surround CP3

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs facing a team with the philosophy that I suggested back in the summer...

It's going to be interesting to see how Spurs react/adjust to Houston going even smaller with possibly adding Gordon to SL.

**I also feel this will hopefully be a personnel direction PATFO go in finding more shooters..especially to surround CP3

They have the shooters. Its about execution and gameplan. Last night they went inside waaay too much and played big Lee/Gasol - Lee/LA combos waaaay too much. Play Bertans over Anderson.

[MaNu4Tres]

I remember this was the thread when coach called me homeboy.. and said he was waiting for " homeboy" before he was about to go in...


That was so cute coach. Love the confidence.

[coachmac87]

I remember this was the thread when coach called me homeboy.. and said he was waiting for " homeboy" before he was about to go in...


That was so cute coach. Love the confidence.

Yeah I sure did..LMAO


But let's not also ignore or forget that I was on to something when I created this thread..

[coachmac87]

They have the shooters. Its about execution and gameplan. Last night they went inside waaay too much and played big Lee/Gasol - Lee/LA combos waaaay too much. Play Bertans over Anderson.

If Houston is going to continue going extra small I would for sure look to play Bertans more. Question is how many minutes and who's? Spurs IMO need space the floor as much as possible to take advantage of the Rockets lack of size on defense.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

They have the shooters. Its about execution and gameplan. Last night they went inside waaay too much and played big Lee/Gasol - Lee/LA combos waaaay too much. Play Bertans over Anderson.

Why did Pop have them move away from what was working so well in Game 3? I don't get the layup drill although I imagine the Spurs were so concerned about their shooters, who ended up getting 40+ 3 point attempts on a damn good percentage.

[ElNono]

We're full of shooters that can't shoot... Danny, Patty, Kawhi, LMA, Gasol, Bertans (doesn't play)...