Bulls: Compare Jordan at age 34 to Lebron at age 34.

**Dirks_Finale** · 03-03-2019

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago.

I must have missed that.

MJ never made 8 consecutive Finals appearances. MJ never went to a failing team and dragged them to the Finals

. Lebron never dealt with bad boy pistons or retirement due to extreme boredom from being flat-out better than everyone else, either.

Lebron did that three times, Cleveland, Miami then Cleveland again. Once MJ went to another team he was pretty much Vince Carter (today's Vince Carter) and people pretend those years never existed. People also pretend MJ never missed the Finals in his career or that he didn't quit the league for 2 years.

MJ was like 38 years old when he joined the Wizards. Lebron is only 34 and that Laker team is comparable to the Jordan Wizard's in the standings.

Plus, Jordan still Avg over 20 ppg in both years. So your Vince Carter comment is ridiculous.

MJ was a beast, but he never saw the Finals before or after Pippen.

Lebron isn't tied to any one specific person or team, he's won rings in two cities and Finals MVP in each. It's a close race but Lebron has done enough to be considered GOAT even if he never plays another game, but for some reason people keep wanting to add another hurdle he needs to clear.

I appreciate him for what he is --- which is maybe the greatest athlete ever, in any sport. But i also see his many flaws as a basketball player. Such as getting owned by a role player like Jason Terry in 2011. And losing to your Spurs in record fashion in 2014. The man lacks the clutchness and killer instinct of Jordan. I think he is terrified to go to the line late, that's why he settles for jumpers in clutch situations. He also seems to think he needs a super team every year or it just isn't fair. It's no wonder to me why the Lakers play like after hearing their names tossed around in trades all year since they aren't good enough to get him to the finals.

**djohn2oo8** · 03-03-2019

Owned by Terry and Marion

**Spurtacular** · 03-03-2019

Originally Posted by Dirks_Finale

Plus, Jordan still Avg over 20 ppg in both years.

As a volume midrange jump shooter playing against players pandering to their idol. Don't get me wrong; I like those Jordan Wizards. I wish they had made the playoffs; would've been fun.

**Dirks_Finale** · 03-03-2019

Originally Posted by Spurtacular

As a volume midrange jump shooter playing against players pandering to their idol. Don't get me wrong; I like those Jordan Wizards. I wish they had made the playoffs; would've been fun.

Wasn't prime MJ, that's for sure. But he was just as effective as a near 40 year old as I've seen. Comparable to Kareem's later years. Good, not great.

**Spurtacular** · 03-03-2019

Originally Posted by Dirks_Finale

Wasn't prime MJ, that's for sure. But he was just as effective as a near 40 year old as I've seen. Comparable to Kareem's later years. Good, not great.

Definitely one of the best midrange shooters of all-time. Doing what he did on tired legs, too. For me, Bird and Pierce might be my top two; but Jordan is up there.

**AaronY** · 03-03-2019

Originally Posted by DMC

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago.

**Spurtacular** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by Spurtacular

Definitely one of the best midrange shooters of all-time. Doing what he did on tired legs, too. For me, Bird and Pierce might be my top two; but Jordan is up there.

KJ and a few others I might remember later on, too.

**R. DeMurre** · 03-04-2019

The Lebron vs MJ debate is definitely one where specifics usually lose out to generic concepts & numbers. 2007 is a great example: yes, Cleveland lost in the finals-- something Jordan never did-- but there's simply no way a team of Sasha Pavlovic, Zydrunas Illgauskus, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Daniel Gibson, and Anderson Varejao is beating a team composed of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Robert Horry, and Bruce Bowen. The fact that a 22 year old LeBron got them past a great Detroit team and to the finals at all is a small miracle. Most of those Cleveland guys in the years following weren't even starting players on other teams. Jordan's team when he was 22 won 30 games while he missed a big chunk of the season with an injury. His team at age 23 was 40-42 and got swept in the first round. His team at age 24 won 50 games and lost in the second round. His team at age 25 won 47 games and lost in the Conference finals, and at age 26 won 55 and lost in the conference finals again. So, saying that LeBron at age 22 with a very weak team lost to the Spurs in the finals shouldn't be a knock against him, but rather one place where he surpassed Jordan.

**DMC** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by Dirks_Finale

I must have missed that.

. Lebron never dealt with bad boy pistons or retirement due to extreme boredom from being flat-out better than everyone else, either.

MJ was like 38 years old when he joined the Wizards. Lebron is only 34 and that Laker team is comparable to the Jordan Wizard's in the standings.

Plus, Jordan still Avg over 20 ppg in both years. So your Vince Carter comment is ridiculous.

I appreciate him for what he is --- which is maybe the greatest athlete ever, in any sport. But i also see his many flaws as a basketball player. Such as getting owned by a role player like Jason Terry in 2011. And losing to your Spurs in record fashion in 2014. The man lacks the clutchness and killer instinct of Jordan. I think he is terrified to go to the line late, that's why he settles for jumpers in clutch situations. He also seems to think he needs a super team every year or it just isn't fair. It's no wonder to me why the Lakers play like after hearing their names tossed around in trades all year since they aren't good enough to get him to the finals.

These are all "I prefer" statements. Jordan took 20+ shots a game to get 21 points. VC took 4 or 5 shots a game.

"Jordan could not lead the Bulls past the first round of the playoffs by himself losing to the champion Celtics and in 1987 general manager Jerry Krause acquired Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant at that summer's draft. In 1989, the Bulls played in their first conference finals series since 1975, losing to the Detroit Pistons. Coach Phil Jackson, an assistant since 1987, succeeded Doug Collins as head coach after that season and in 1991, the team won their first of three consecutive NBA championships by defeating Magic Johnson and the Lakers.[7]. Then they won two more consecutive les in 1992 and 1993 after which Michael Jordan retired."

Michael never won until Scotty Pippen took him by the hand. Even when he did, he beat someone with HIV.

**DMC** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by djohn2oo8

Pretty sure though I mentioned finals.

Those are the only highlights you've watched

**DMC** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by AaronY

Great rebuttal. Will log for future reference.

**Dirks_Finale** · 03-04-2019

And how did Scottie(not Scotty) do on his own? Played with some excellent teams in Houston and Portland, post MJ.

Originally Posted by DMC

These are all "I prefer" statements. Jordan took 20+ shots a game to get 21 points. VC took 4 or 5 shots a game.

"Jordan could not lead the Bulls past the first round of the playoffs by himself losing to the champion Celtics and in 1987 general manager Jerry Krause acquired Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant at that summer's draft. In 1989, the Bulls played in their first conference finals series since 1975, losing to the Detroit Pistons. Coach Phil Jackson, an assistant since 1987, succeeded Doug Collins as head coach after that season and in 1991, the team won their first of three consecutive NBA championships by defeating Magic Johnson and the Lakers.[7]. Then they won two more consecutive les in 1992 and 1993 after which Michael Jordan retired."

Michael never won until Scotty Pippen took him by the hand. Even when he did, he beat someone with HIV.

**Ghazi** · 03-04-2019

lol at the idiotic "MJ never won without Pippen take" ... oh dear MJ couldn't beat the best Celtics team of all time with a 30 win Bulls team, lets crucify his ass

**Dirks_Finale** · 03-04-2019

I think that 2007 run by him is his greatest accomplishment. Even more so than the 2016 le. In fact, when people harp on his 3-6 Finals record I am quick to point out that 07 team should not have been there in the first place. To me, he is 3-5 in the Finals. And one of those other Cleveland years they were riddled with injuries in the Finals so I'm even ok with people saying he is more like 3-4...unfortunately, though, that's still a losing record when it matters most.

Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

The Lebron vs MJ debate is definitely one where specifics usually lose out to generic concepts & numbers. 2007 is a great example: yes, Cleveland lost in the finals-- something Jordan never did-- but there's simply no way a team of Sasha Pavlovic, Zydrunas Illgauskus, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Daniel Gibson, and Anderson Varejao is beating a team composed of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Robert Horry, and Bruce Bowen. The fact that a 22 year old LeBron got them past a great Detroit team and to the finals at all is a small miracle. Most of those Cleveland guys in the years following weren't even starting players on other teams. Jordan's team when he was 22 won 30 games while he missed a big chunk of the season with an injury. His team at age 23 was 40-42 and got swept in the first round. His team at age 24 won 50 games and lost in the second round. His team at age 25 won 47 games and lost in the Conference finals, and at age 26 won 55 and lost in the conference finals again. So, saying that LeBron at age 22 with a very weak team lost to the Spurs in the finals shouldn't be a knock against him, but rather one place where he surpassed Jordan.

**Dirks_Finale** · 03-04-2019

Agreed.

Pip's presence was a factor in those le teams no doubt. But it's not like MJ goes ringless if you put, say, Larry Johnson or another good SF next to him. All that did, IMO, was deflate Jordan's stats. People forget that one long stretch in a season where Jordan was asked to play PG and put up Lebron type(or better) assist numbers. They also forget Jordan won DPOY. (0 of those for LBJ, btw).

He could do it all besides hit consistently from 3. He just wasn't asked to do much but score a lot and defend well late in games thanks to Pip's presence.

Originally Posted by Ghazi

lol at the idiotic "MJ never won without Pippen take" ... oh dear MJ couldn't beat the best Celtics team of all time with a 30 win Bulls team, lets crucify his ass

**DMC** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by Dirks_Finale

And how did Scottie(not Scotty) do on his own? Played with some excellent teams in Houston and Portland, post MJ.

I'd say he did as well as Mike did on his own.

**DMC** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by Ghazi

lol at the idiotic "MJ never won without Pippen take" ... oh dear MJ couldn't beat the best Celtics team of all time with a 30 win Bulls team, lets crucify his ass

Oh dear, Lebron couldn't beat the most powerful team in the league, Spurs, with Daniel Gibson and Big Z. Let's crucify his ass.

**lefty** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by Spurtacular

KJ and a few others I might remember later on, too.

Yup

KJ was very consistent

**djohn2oo8** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by DMC

Those are the only highlights you've watched

One is better than the other’s. Let me know the records.

**djohn2oo8** · 03-04-2019

Originally Posted by Dirks_Finale

I think that 2007 run by him is his greatest accomplishment. Even more so than the 2016 le. In fact, when people harp on his 3-6 Finals record I am quick to point out that 07 team should not have been there in the first place. To me, he is 3-5 in the Finals. And one of those other Cleveland years they were riddled with injuries in the Finals so I'm even ok with people saying he is more like 3-4...unfortunately, though, that's still a losing record when it matters most.

Kyrie and Allen’s shots saved him from 1-7. Because that’s how close he was.