Lawmaker says Marines killed Iraqis 'in cold blood'

[MaNuMaNiAc]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...nes/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A decorated Marine colonel turned anti-war congressman said Wednesday that Marines killed at least 30 innocent Iraqi civilians "in cold blood" in Haditha in November, suggesting the attack is twice as bad as originally reported.

Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, told reporters Wednesday that he got his information from U.S. commanders, who said the investigation will show that the Marines deliberately killed the civilians.

The U.S. Marine Corps has declined to comment on the report, which initially stated that 15 were killed.

"There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Murtha said. (Watch Murtha level accusations against the Marines -- 1:58)

Murtha, who was decorated for his service in Vietnam, said the death toll may be more than twice as high as originally reported.

"They actually went into the houses and killed women and children," the congressman said.

Citing an ongoing investigation, the Marine Corps said, "Any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process."

The Iraqi civilians were killed while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were looking for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of their unit.

At first, the Marines said the civilians were killed by a roadside bomb. Later, they suggested the victims may have been caught in a firefight.

An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued.

Time Warner is the parent company of Time magazine and CNN.

Last month, the battalion commander and two company commanders were relieved of their commands and reassigned to staff jobs at Camp Pendleton in California.

Sources close to the investigation said it is too soon to say whether anyone will face criminal charges, but key aspects of the original Marine account have not checked out.

Murtha supported the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but last November, he distanced himself from the Bush administration and called for the withdrawal of U.S. troops because of what he called "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion."

...

[Yonivore]

There is the possibility that the Marines did gun down innocent civilians as local Iraqis claim. But it is equally as possible that one or more people inside the house opened fire upon the Marines in an ambush after the IED went off. It has happened that way frequently, and that exact scenario left ABC anchor Bob Woodruff and cameraman Doug Vogt seriously wounded, when the IED attack that wounded them was followed by small arms fire from nearby buildings. The attack was broken when coalition forces counterattacked.

Someone who truly supports the troops, even if they do not support the war, would want this incident fully investigated to uncover the truth. They would want to know the facts.

They would want to know if the Marines fired out of blind rage at the loss of their friends, and they would be equally interested in finding out if the Marines assaulted that location because someone inside fired upon them, as they claimed. Was it a slaughter of innocents, or were insurgents firing from within civilian homes? Were those that triggered the IED among the dead?

We do not yet know, and some are already passing judgment.

Congressman John Murtha has now gone so far as to accuse American Marines of cold-blooded murder before an investigation has been completed, and roughly doubled the number of dead without any support for his charges, with the sole apparent goal of inflaming outrage at the expense of our military's safety.

It would seem appropriate that the United States House of Representatives should at the very least censure Congressman Murtha, who has gone so far out of his way to initiate such inflammatory and potentially dangerous rhetoric. He has dishonored his seat, the military criminal justice system, the Marine Corps and the United States of America.

How a man can make such vicious, unsupported claims and still claim to love the Marine Corps and America is beyond my understanding.

Sempre Fidelis, eh?

[Nbadan]

Here's a news report of the incident in Haditha courtesy of The Times

THE villagers of Abu Sifa near the Iraqi town of Balad had become used to the sound of explosions at night as American forces searched the area for suspected insurgents. But one night two weeks ago Issa Harat Khalaf heard a different sound that chilled him to the bone.

Khalaf, a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines, saw a US helicopter land near his home. American soldiers stormed out of the Chinook and advanced on a house owned by Khalaf’s brother Fayez, firing as they went.

Khalaf ran from his own house and hid in a nearby grove of trees. He saw the soldiers enter his brother’s home and then heard the sound of women and children screaming.

“Then there was a lot of machinegun fire,” he said last week. After that there was the most frightening sound of all — silence, followed by explosions as the soldiers left the house.

Once the troops were gone, Khalaf and his fellow villagers began a frantic search through the ruins of his brother’s home. Abu Sifa was about to join a lengthening list of Iraqi communities claiming to have suffered from American atrocities.

According to Iraqi police, 11 bodies were pulled from the wreckage of the house, among them four women and five children aged between six months and five years. An official police report obtained by a US reporter for Knight Ridder newspapers said: “The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 people.”

THE TIMES ONLINE

From the Times

"The available evidence does not provide conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed innocents in Haditha. But the accounts of human-rights groups that investigated the incident and survivors and local officials who spoke to Time do raise questions about whether the extent of force used by the Marines was justified—and whether the Marines were initially candid about what took place. Dr. Wahid, director of the local hospital in Haditha, who asked that his family name be withheld because, he says, he fears reprisals by U.S. troops, says the Marines brought 24 bodies to his hospital around midnight on Nov. 19. Wahid says the Marines claimed the victims had been killed by shrapnel from the roadside bomb. "But it was obvious to us that there were no organs slashed by shrapnel," Wahid says. "The bullet wounds were very apparent. Most of the victims were shot in the chest and the head--from close range."

A day after the incident, a Haditha journalism student videotaped the scene at the local morgue and at the homes where the killings had occurred. The video was obtained by the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, which cooperates with the internationally respected Human Rights Watch, and has been shared with Time. The tape makes for grisly viewing. It shows that many of the victims, especially the women and children, were still in their nightclothes when they died. The scenes from inside the houses show that the walls and ceilings are pockmarked with shrapnel and bullet holes as well as the telltale spray of blood. But the video does not reveal the presence of any bullet holes on the outside of the houses, which may cast doubt on the Marines' contention that after the ied exploded, the Marines and the insurgents engaged in a fierce gunfight.

There are also questions about why the military took so long to investigate the details of the Haditha incident. Soon after the killings, the mayor of Haditha, Emad Jawad Hamza, led an angry delegation of elders up to the Marine camp beside a dam on the Euphrates River. Hamza says, "The captain admitted that his men had made a mistake. He said that his men thought there were terrorists near the houses, and he didn't give any other reason."

But the military stood by its initial contention—that the Iraqis had been killed by an insurgent bomb—until January when Time gave a copy of the video and witnesses' testimony to Colonel Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. After reviewing the evidence, Johnson passed it on to the military command, suggesting that the events of Haditha be given "a full and formal investigation." In February an infantry colonel went to Haditha for a weeklong probe in which he interviewed Marines, survivors and doctors at the morgue, according to military officials close to the investigation. The probe concluded that the civilians were in fact killed by Marines and not by an insurgent's bomb and that no insurgents appeared to be in the first two houses raided by the Marines. The probe found, however, that the deaths were the result of "collateral damage" rather than malicious intent by the Marines, investigators say."

The U.S. has paid relatives of the victims $2,500 for each of the 15 dead civilians, plus smaller payments for the injured. But nothing can bring back all that was taken from 9-year-old Eman Waleed on that fateful day last November. She still does not comprehend how, when her father went in to pray with the Koran for the family's safety, his prayers were not answered, as they had been so many times in the past. "He always prayed before, and the Americans left us alone," she says. Leaving, she grabs a handful of candy. "It's for my little brother," she says. "I have to take care of my brother. Nobody else is left."

TIME

[Vashner]

Murtha...... what a joke..

Even if some Marines did wrong military will investigate this and deal with it.

But to try to paint all Marines serving in Iraq as mindless babykillers is sad.

[xrayzebra]

In wartime or anytime, is there any other way people are killed other than
cold blood. Excluding accidental death. It is really, really, really nice to be able
to sit in a nice quite place and second guess someone who has hot lead
whizzing around their head.

[Vashner]

Marines FIGHT FOR the Babies in Iraq.. not against...

Murtha and his twisted friends on the left not only paint the Modern Marine as a dumb fool that was too poor to go to college and to dumb not to join. Forced to join because of the "Bush" economy lack of jobs.

They go thru training and all the way to Iraq to seek OUT innocent people and kill them.

Murtha and his buddies are now full blown Al Queda sympathizers.

[xrayzebra]

Yep, agree completely Vashner. Some of these people who call
our fighting men dumb and stupid ought to try and operate/repair/
do a little PM on some the equipment and then come talk to me
about them being dumb and stupid, unable to do anything else but
kill people.

[John Doe]

You know most people with this mentality are ones who've never had the misfortune of experiencing war and it's effects. I'm active duty and I have yet to be deployed but it's a scary thought of what I would/could do in those types of situations. I can't place blame (not fully anyway) on them for such incidents when they have no clue who the enemy is. Not to mention the emotional ups and downs one goes through when it's "them or me".

[velik_m]

In wartime or anytime, is there any other way people are killed other than
cold blood. Excluding accidental death. It is really, really, really nice to be able
to sit in a nice quite place and second guess someone who has hot lead
whizzing around their head.

yes, but killing civilians in cold blood is a war crime.

the whole mess in Iraq right now, should be handled by police - they are trained for dealing with criminals in urban enviroment - not by army. sadly international police units are not strong enough in numbers to be considered for this operation as countries cannot spare enough policemen. Also the Iraq police is not trained/equiped enough for this either.

[chode_regulator]

someone who was in vietnam questioning marines ethics? right, bc in vietnam no innocent people got killed
its war, happens. no one here knows whathappened, especially not some old decrepit ass man who has no evidence otherthan what he says. i could make some up and hold a press conference on it.
why dont you ask some of the grunts who go into a building and get popped in the head by an ak47 bc they hesitated what its like?oh wait, you cant. you ing hesitate, you die.
and again, how come none of the good stories get told. the war heroes that are there and the good things the soldiers do accomplish?
do i want to go to iraq? no. am i going? yes. would i hesitate to shoot if i thought i was in danger, no. kinda funny how people judge who have no idea hwat even happened bc anytime theres a military investigation that is wrapped up under lock and key til its all done and a report has been released.

[xrayzebra]

yes, but killing civilians in cold blood is a war crime.

the whole mess in Iraq right now, should be handled by police - they are trained for dealing with criminals in urban enviroment - not by army. sadly international police units are not strong enough in numbers to be considered for this operation as countries cannot spare enough policemen. Also the Iraq police is not trained/equiped enough for this either.

Not in all cases, dummy. you would condemn anyone that is in this
war in Iraq. I would like to hear your definition of civilian. You mean like
14 year old kids and women blowing themselves up. If they can convince
them to do that, don't think they would have much trouble finding someone
to hold an AK-47 and shooting at some nice Christians. Get policemen to
handle the problem, my Aunt Maude, you need some common sense. You
need to go over there and figure out which are the bad guys while being
shot at. And then let us know, okay?

[chode_regulator]

You
need to go over there and figure out which are the bad guys while being
shot at. And then let us know, okay?

agreed
i was watching black hawk down the other day and it reminded me of the same situatino as iraq, no one wears uniforms, no one sticks out, anyone could have a gun. and youre expected to go into houses and clear them and not make mistakes?

[mookie2001]

cant they just blog us the info?

[velik_m]

Not in all cases, dummy. you would condemn anyone that is in this
war in Iraq. I would like to hear your definition of civilian. You mean like
14 year old kids and women blowing themselves up. If they can convince
them to do that, don't think they would have much trouble finding someone
to hold an AK-47 and shooting at some nice Christians. Get policemen to
handle the problem, my Aunt Maude, you need some common sense. You
need to go over there and figure out which are the bad guys while being
shot at. And then let us know, okay?

In times of armed conflict a civilian is any person who is not a combatant.

Cold blooded murder of civilians in a war is a war crime in all cases, dummy.

Crimes Against Humanity as defined by London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg trials): namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated.

(read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity)

The sitiuation in Somalia was much worse than in Iraq (and i'm not even going to comment on using a movie as a source by chode). I believe enough trained police troops could handle the situation better, you are free to your own opinion.

[xrayzebra]

^^so how do we figure out who is a "combatant" and who isn't, since they are
not in any uniform. By the way, our neighbors to the South, Mexico, seems to
be having a small problem with their police force controlling the country. And
they are a "peaceful" country. Want to run down to Neuva Laredo for a drink and
dinner? The police will protect you, so long as they aren't in there eating and
getting shot.

[chode_regulator]

In times of armed conflict a civilian is any person who is not a combatant.

Cold blooded murder of civilians in a war is a war crime in all cases, dummy.

Crimes Against Humanity as defined by London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg trials): namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated.

(read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity)

The sitiuation in Somalia was much worse than in Iraq (and i'm not even going to comment on using a movie as a source by chode). I believe enough trained police troops could handle the situation better, you are free to your own opinion.

ok aparently you completely missed the point. im nto using a ing movie as a source. but if youre going to sit there and tell me that the situatin is not similar then, well i wont call you an idiot. but, youre an idiot. ive talked to pepole who have been to both places and they say iraq is actually worse in alot of ways.

[Vashner]

Somalia was just 1 company of rangers without air support.

That will NEVER HAPPEN under GW BUSH..

If Marines want a building blown up or are pinned down THEY GONN BLOW SOME THE UP.. they don't have to call Clinton's little side office while he's getting &&&&,,, armor and air support.

Iraq is no Somalia. It was a UN food operation.

Iraq is to attack a stronghold of radical islam. We are at war with ALL of radical islam.

And NO CNN Can't have the full battle ing plan.. that would be stupid ..

EDIT ADD: BTW... In case you didn't know we had a Marine expeditionary group there.. You think the Somalies took them on? no they waited till they left and just a small army detachment was there.

[velik_m]

^^so how do we figure out who is a "combatant" and who isn't, since they are
not in any uniform. By the way, our neighbors to the South, Mexico, seems to
be having a small problem with their police force controlling the country. And
they are a "peaceful" country. Want to run down to Neuva Laredo for a drink and
dinner? The police will protect you, so long as they aren't in there eating and
getting shot.

Shooting first and asking later is not the right way. Yes i know it's hard, but nobody said being the good guy was easy.

[Harry Reid]

Shooting first and asking later is not the right way. Yes i know it's hard, but nobody said being the good guy was easy.

That's what I have always said. I support the troops, just not the war.

[Nbadan]

A dozen Marines may face courts-martial for alleged Iraq massacre

A key member of Congress said he “wouldn’t be surprised” if a dozen Marines faced courts-martial for allegedly killing Iraqi civilians Nov. 19.

Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., told Marine Corps Times that the number of dead Iraqis, first reported to be 15, was actually 24. He based that number on a briefing from Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Mike Hagee on Wednesday.

Hagee visited Capitol Hill in anticipation of the release of two investigation reports, which are expected to show that among the 24 dead civilians, five of the alleged victims, all unarmed, were shot in a car with no warning, Murtha said. The killings took place in Hadithah, 125 miles northwest of Baghdad.

At least seven of the victims were women and three were children.

“If the allegations are substantiated, the Marine Corps will pursue appropriate legal and administrative actions against those responsible,” said Col. David Lapan, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters.

Marine Times

[DFW Spurs]

I have served in the Marines and have friends and family in Iraq right now. My brother-in-law had a buddy of his killed by a 10 yr old boy with an RPG in January while they were protecting a convoy. Don't be so naive to think anyone is innocent. The same rules of engagement we use to engage the enemy is not the same rules they follow. They have none. So before anyone is quick to judge these men lets get all the facts straight. This is all speculative.

[xrayzebra]

^^Just another way they "support" the troops. Murtha needs to
get a life and turn in his Marine credentials, he is a turncoat to
the service he so proudly claims to be a part of. All he is now is
a cheap politician like many in Washington.

[JoeChalupa]

The Casualties of War.


Semper Fi!!!!!

[DFW Spurs]

"The Casualties of War." I think that was a movie about the Army. Didn't Murtha direct it?

[CommanderMcBragg]

I thought it starred Alex Keaton.