If 4 people testify they saw me kill my neighbor, and my neighbor is indeed dead, I'm getting convicted of murder.
No you're not. Unless the cops can prove you fired the gun, what the 4 people testified means absolutely jack .
What's dumb about it?
This is where you show your hand.
So you're saying you're not concerned with public officials allegedly committing crimes and not being prosecuted? You just care about the "scandal"... not that it wasn't clear before, tbh..... go red team go!
We're not getting anywhere with this... I'm not disputing that happened. I'm disputing that was official ATF policy. I asked you for the "smoking gun" ATF do ent stating that. I'm still waiting.
first of all it's 4 ATF agents testifying to congress about trackable weapons that ACTUALLY went into the hands of the cartels.
No you're not. Unless the cops can prove you fired the gun, what the 4 people testified means absolutely jack .
What's dumb about it?
Not a neighbor accusing someone of killing a neighbor who isn't even dead.
that's why it's dumb.
How do you know they did? Weren't the weapons untracked?
The neighbor being dead doesn't mean he did it, despite what I testify.
Why?
you.This is where you show your hand.
So you're saying you're not concerned with public officials allegedly committing crimes and not being prosecuted? You just care about the "scandal"... not that it wasn't clear before, tbh..... go red team go!
We're not getting anywhere with this... I'm not disputing that happened. I'm disputing that was official ATF policy. I asked you for the "smoking gun" ATF do ent stating that. I'm still waiting.
I'm absolutely disgusted that anyone in the ATF would do such a stupid program. so yeah, I care. That investigation is basically concluded and no one but you seems to dispute that the ATF intentionally walked guns directly into the hands of the cartels.
I'm also disgusted that Holders justice department lied to congress and said that no one at Justice knew about it and it was just the actions of a few rogue ATF agents.
I think congress is well withing their right to pursue the perjury and find out who knew what when. That is what this inquiry is about, and by stonewalling and invoking executive privilege holder looks guilty as .
And yes, I think the gun walking was a policy that came straight from the top of the justice department and possibly even the white house.
Holder can go rot in jail for all I care (and whoever else is responsible, including Barry if pertinent, too).
People died here, this wasn't a blow job. An actual investigation would find out what happened, who's responsible and hand out indictments. I'm not holding my breath, because public officials rarely face such consequences, but that's exactly what we should be striving for.
This whole contempt dog and pony show does nothing to advance the investigation or to get us closer to the truth. It's a swinging contest for the cameras.
It wouldn't have to be if Holder had just released the requested do ents 8 months ago.
What makes you think he wouldn't stonewall and claim executive privilege with an independent prosecutor?
Because right now they have the "this is a political stunt with the election coming up!" card, which is an absolutely believable card, considering the accusers are far from "independent" and specifically because Issa has a history of acrimony towards Holder even *before* he was a chairman of that commission.
Stonewalling an actual independent investigation is much more damning, because, objectively, there's simply no partisan card to play.
I was unaware there was a "damnable" metric for these events.
Stonewalling = Stonewalling.
If he had given them the do ents 8 months ago it wouldn't be right before the election.
Well, for starters we don't know if an independent investigation would elicit the same stonewalling. One thing that would be different in that case is that they could request the do ents to be sealed, and they couldn't be used for a fishing expedition. This is obviously a request that would go nowhere in the current "investigation".
If he didn't get the do ents 8 months ago, why they just moved with a contempt vote? The timing of moves like these are exactly what makes this whole thing look like political gamesmanship.
Issa was on record stating that he was going to investigate the out of the administration right after the right wing took over congress... give him credit for doing exectly that..
President Obama’s attempt to invoke executive privilege to forestall contempt-of-Congress proceedings against Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. failed. Instead, the claim elevates the dispute between the administration and Capitol Hill to a new and troubling level. The operative question now is, what did the president know and when did he know it?
The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted Wednesday to recommend a contempt charge against Mr. Holder. Since October, the Justice Department has refused to respond to a subpoena seeking 1,300 pages of do ents related to the botched Fast and Furious Mexican gunrunning operation. Negotiations between the Justice Department and committee Chairman Darrell E. Issa, California Republican, broke down, and the contempt recommendation followed.
Mr. Obama’s last-minute move to extend the umbrella of executive privilege raises the question of whether the president or his staff had extensive prior knowledge of the operation, because this privilege can only be invoked when the chief executive’s office is involved. “Until now, everyone believed that the decisions regarding Fast and Furious were confined to the Department of Justice,” said Michael Steel, spokesman for House Speaker John A. Boehner, Ohio Republican. “The White House decision to invoke executive privilege implies that White House officials were either involved in the Fast and Furious operation or the cover-up that followed.”
Mr. Holder claims the do ents in question are internal and deliberative and thus are records that traditionally are removed from congressional oversight. The committee is investigating the role Mr. Holder played in these very deliberations and how much he knew about the operation. He swore under oath that his involvement was limited and came late in the game, but he is withholding evidence that could either support or undercut his testimony. White House intervention gives the appearance that Mr. Holder’s stonewalling was not to protect himself from a perjury charge, but to conceal hitherto unknown Oval Office involvement in Fast and Furious. This also may explain why Mr. Holder said that what should have been a routine investigation could lead to a “cons utional crisis.”
Mr. Obama has an affinity for exerting unilateral power, so the attempt to extend executive privilege ought not to come as a surprise. Former President Bill Clinton made no such effort when his attorney general, Janet Reno, faced a contempt charge from the same committee in 1998. That dispute was resolved eventually without any broad claims of authority even though Mr. Clinton did exercise the privilege on 14 other occasions.
The danger in the administration’s strategy is that congressional investigators may already have obtained do ents by other means. Earlier this month, Mr. Issa revealed that an anonymous whistleblower had provided wiretap applications related to Fast and Furious that had been under a federal court seal. Those papers by themselves probably have no bearing on Mr. Holder’s case or on the matter of White House participation, but it is possible that Mr. Issa may yet obtain other material directly contradicting Mr. Holder’s sworn testimony or revealing White House involvement. It remains to be seen whether this investigation will produce a smoking gun.
The Washington Times
the wash. times? pffft
now.....if it was the post.....
Clinton didn't have to deal with this congress... these guys in congress are sandusky creepy..
That part isn't true. See Hiss-Chambers case during Truman's administration, Army–McCarthy hearings during Eisenhower's administration.
deja vu, btw.
From that link above... "This is a further shift by the Bush administration into Nixonian stonewalling and more evidence of their disdain for our system of checks and balances,” Mr. Leahy said."
He failed to build a credible case or a credible coalition for his initiative. After a day of increasingly ridiculous posturing, Issa secured the contempt citation he sought. But is came on a straight party-line vote that rendered the decision all but meaningless.
The chairman's heavy-handed style invoted the reproach that the contempt vote was "nothing more than a political witch hunt," as People for the American Way president Michael Keegan termed it.
“To be sure, Congress has a legitimate interest in investigating Operation Fast and Furious, but Chairman Issa and Republican majority on the Committee appear to be more interested in scoring political points than in getting to the bottom of what happened," argued Keegan, who added that, “The hoops the Committee is demanding the Attorney General jump through illustrate that these contempt hearings are as partisan as they are extreme. Over the course of this ‘investigation,’ the Committee has ordered the A.G. to produce do ents whose confidentiality is protected by federal law, has refused to subpoena Bush Administration officials to testify about their knowledge of the operation during their time in office, has refused to allow public testimony from officials whose testimony counters Issa’s partisan narrative, and has repeatedly rejected the A.G.’s efforts to accommodate the committee, making compliance all but impossible."
http://www.thenation.com/blog/168505...l=emailNation#
The day all this stops is the day we find our balls and try a politician/high ranking official for high crimes and make an example. Dude got busted arming the cartels for one of 2 reasons:
1) false flag operation to push more gun control
2) to arm the cartel that is loyal to us so they can kill off the compe ion
You know it, I know it, we all know it.
LOL....Rachel Maddow address Youni, CC and WC directly
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908...show/#47898272
The Mad Cow addressing us?
LOL...
LOL...
You can't be serious...
Are you going to invoke Randi Rhodes next?
I think there will be enough political commercial money to run both issues and more.
Typical ShazBot reply.
When will you have something worth listening to?
But we know better. We know they are blue in your case. Looks like we need to ask the owners of this web site to add the same animation with blue pom poms.
Obama's executive order makes it more likely, in my view, that Obama approved the operation.
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