I don't have to pray to be a thankful person - I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that a person cannot feel true thankfulness and graciousness without being able to attribute it to a one and only God. As for the blame, I was being somewhat facetious, but it would be nice to have a reason for why bad things happen to good people over and over and over again - without the ubiquitous Christian explanation that those things happened so that someone else could learn from it or benefit spiritually from it.
True. I know many times I'm happy and thankful and don't think about God as the reason why.
And I for one am a sinner so please don't think that I'm preaching.
I'm guilty of thinking that way too sometimes when things go bad but since I believe in God it doesn't bother me.
And don't think I haven't questioned somethings from time time.
True, the choice is in nobody's hands but ours.
Not true.
We chose to part from God's side (theory of the Fall). Precisely because God gave us free will, and the right to exercise that free will, is the reason why the World is as screwed up as it is (because we misused our free will, and we keep misusing it all the time).
God knew we were going to make that choice - omnicense - and he knew certain people were not going to be saved and he still choose to make them.
Finally, we agree!!
That's a start . . .
I guess the flip side would be for God to create people without free will (robots) that would obey him no matter what.
Smeagol, I had some thoughts on the way to the office this morning. Anyone is free to chime in on this.
God being omnicient knows all of course. Yet he created Eden, Satan, Adam and Eve and created them all in a manner as to how he knew how they would react and how they would make certain decisions. He then put them in an environment - Eden - knowing beforehand exactly what would transpire.
How different is this from me creating a computer program, and putting it into a situation where I know what the input variables are, and then saying that it has free will because it went through the decision process even though I controlled the input and thereby controlled the outcome of the decision?
Computer programs are usually predictable, while humans are not. We're programmed to have certain desires/instincts, but we are also programmed with the ability to choose to override them for a moral purpose.How different is this from me creating a computer program, and putting it into a situation where I know what the input variables are, and then saying that it has free will because it went through the decision process even though I controlled the input and thereby controlled the outcome of the decision?
You can create a program that will randomly choose from variables that you have input, but you still may not be able to predict the outcome. And even if you were "omnicient" enough to predict the outcome, the program still chose the variable on its own. You just knew beforehand what it would choose.
I would argue that the only reason human's are not as predictable as programs is due to a lack of understanding of the human code.
Well if that is what free will actually is, then free will is highly overrated.
You can create a program that will randomly choose from variables that you have input, but you still may not be able to predict the outcome. And even if you were "omnicient" enough to predict the outcome, the program still chose the variable on its own. You just knew beforehand what it would choose.
You have got to be kidding me...I would argue that the only reason human's are not as predictable as programs is due to a lack of understanding of the human code.
Maybe we can come up and have the code pretty well defined with Man 3.0, but after Woman 22.12.37.0026, they'll finally give up.
See, I'm not so sure God really knows the particular outcome. He tests us each and everyday. It is up to us to pass or fail that test! If we pass, we please God; if we fail, we dissappoint Him.
I just don't think it is as simple as saying God knows the outcome, therefore there is any point to whether we obey him or not.
Why?Well if that is what free will actually is, then free will is highly overrated.
Even if you take God out of the picture, do you believe Time is linear? What if someone else knew the future... not God, but someone with an innate psychic ability? Doesn't that make you predestined? Does that mean you have no freewill?
What does someone knowing the future have to do with your control over it?
Manny, you have a good point. I had that same doubt myself after re-reading this thread. I don’t know the answer and will proly have to defer to the more knowledgeable posters.
I don’t think your computer program analogy works though, because of what Spurm said. I will try to do my research about this point.
You are definitely an intelligent poster.
I'm dead serious. What else would you call DNA? That's a of an OS right there.You have got to be kidding me...
Maybe we can come up and have the code pretty well defined with Man 3.0, but after Woman 22.12.37.0026, they'll finally give up.
Unless you believe decisions are random thought that just happen to spring up, then you have to believe there is a system at work. All systems are understandable and decodeable.
The Matrix?
I can tell you have never worked or drove cattle in your life.Unless you believe decisions are random thought that just happen to spring up, then you have to believe there is a system at work. All systems are understandable and decodeable.
I sent this hypothetical to my mother who is a Methodist minister just to see what her answer would be (even though I pretty much knew what it was before it came). It was:
I'm pretty tired of getting the "just because" and "only God knows" responses to that question. I've never been able to accept a "just because" response, so why should I start with something as important as the debate over free will?
Ahh, linear time. Another question mark.
Time sends me through a whole different loop because I'm not sure it is linear, but I find it very hard to comprehend it any other fashion. The concept of 4 dimensions is very difficult for me.
Actually, this is where I am about to go off the rocker. I am not sure free will actually exsists. I think that because we are self aware, and we don't understand our own decision making process very well, we have come to the conclusion that we have free will.
Well, it is obviously a bit more complicated than that, but you get the point.
I don't understand quantum physics well enough to know where randomness comes into play, but if there is no randomness and every action incites an opposite - and therefore predictable - reaction, then it is possible to predict exactly what will happen.
Why would this change for anything in the universe?
And if we are simply acting out reaction and reactions to reactions then we are never "making" decisions at all and there is no free will. We are simply aware of what is happening to us.
Well, no one managed to explain to people what gravity was, but people believed in it. "Just because" got the job done for thousands of years.I'm pretty tired of getting the "just because" and "only God knows" responses to that question. I've never been able to accept a "just because" response, so why should I start with something as important as the debate over free will?
Just because you believe/don't believe in something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Perhaps when we actually figure out what things like "close forces" & "black matter" are we can make a more educated assumption on the nature of the universe, but for now we have to take some things on faith.
Then, god is not omnicent.
You're right on everything that you said, but by the same token just because you feel something is incredible and uncomprehendable doesn't mean that it was created by a supernatural force.
"Just because" is not an answer - it is an excuse.
Sometimes it is an observation. Many of the "morals" in the Bible I believe came about because treating others well was most beneficial to civilization.
Religion/spirituality can have positive effects. Everyone here is dwelling on the negative.
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