Things are about to get dicey for Tim Hardaway

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Does Hardaway have any kind of comments in his past that would make this any less surprising? I just hope this doesn't create a public perception that any basketball player that doesn't have at least three pictures of him shaking hands with a gay guy is a bigot. If folks start going out of the way to show their tolerance for everyone, well, a fake atmosphere of peace and love is almost as obnoxious as what Hardaway had to say.

The problem surrounding this issue is that there are such vocal, polarized groups on both sides that believe you can't just not have an opinion on this. If you're not out in the street shouting that gays should shot or that we need a gay president by 2012 you're part of the problem. Oh for the day when we can all come together in the spirit of apathy.

[PMD]

BlahBlah Blah Blah Blah... sexuality is a genetic condition, evolution helps explain how we got here, global warming is a real phenomenon, and gravity is what keeps our feet on the ground. If you believe otherwise, you're ing re ed.

so youre right and im the bigot.

you just proved the definition of the word.
So just because i dont coddle and 100% agree with homesexuality im an antigay bigot. Sorry if im not on board and watch will & grace 24/7. Now youre saying im playing the role of the Klan??? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha wait.... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha

People can do what they want, i dont have to like them for it. I have my views as do you, but the so called peoples "crusade for gay rights" have been the only ones cursing me and everyone else for having a contrary opinion.

[Findog]

so youre right and im the bigot.

you just proved the definition of the word.
So just because i dont coddle and 100% agree with homesexuality im an antigay bigot. Sorry if im not on board and watch will & grace 24/7. Now youre saying im playing the role of the Klan???

People can do what they want, i dont have to like them for it. I have my views as do you, but the so called peoples "crusade for gay rights" have been the only ones cursing me and everyone else for having a contrary opinion.

Nobody's asking you to drink champagne coolies and brush up on your interior decorating skills. All gay people want is to just be left alone and have the same rights, opportunities and freedoms as you or I. There's a higher standard to meet other than "Oh, well, I don't want them killed or thrown into concentration camps." Bigotry is corrosive and diminishes us all...it's like saying "I don't read Jet or watch BET or like the blacks but I guess I'll let them do what they want." I don't think sexuals are asking for your "acceptance" or "tolerance." They just want to live their lives without being told that their lifestyle is disgusting and something that they chose, which you ARE guilty of doing.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Always good to see people have more respect for some book written 2000 years ago than their fellow man. Great stuff.

[PMD]

See the problem with that is when they make it NEWS like John Amechi has, or when they shove it down your throats 24/7 then its an issue. Gay rights? Now theyre trying to get that into schools and what not? No, what they want is much more than just saying its ok. Thats trying to be pushed everywhere. If they just wanted to be left alone, then he would have kept that to himself, instead of drawing excess attention to himself. End of story. Just because its there doesnt mean that i have to accept it! What the heck? The problem is that you want much more than tolerance. You want acceptance and you can always have that sir.

[PMD]

Always good to see people have more respect for some book written 2000 years ago than their fellow man. Great stuff.

"some book.."

that tells me all i need to know about you.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

"some book.."

that tells me all i need to know about you.

That I don't revere paper?

Sorry, human beings are more important to me. Calling something wrong not because it causes any harm, but because it goes against some words printed on a page is the epitome of ignorance.

[Melmart1]

"some book.."

that tells me all i need to know about you.

Little judgemental, are we?

[PMD]

That I don't revere paper?

im done.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

im done.

Too bad, I was hoping for a scripture response to my edit.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

This thread has officially been flushed.

My fiance has been friends with a male individual since birth. When they would play together, he wanted to play Barbies, and be Barbie. When his father took him to the bike store and told him "Any bike you want" he picked the flourescent purple with pink streamers on the side, with a matching pink helmet at age 5. He never really had guy friends, always hung out with girls. He'e the best dressed person in any crowd. A degree in interior design.

I, like alot of you morons in this thread, used to think homsexuality was a choice. While I still believe its fashionable to be gay these days and alot of people do choose to be gay, I finally realized people are born gay.

Everyone knew he was gay since he was young, I think he did as well, but bigots like you ass-clowns kept him from coming out. Its prejudice pieces of that walk the earth that would threaten, harass and probably assault gay people. He doesnt live in California, he lives in Michigan, not exactly popular to be gay here.

He came out (officially) last year at age 25. Just this Valentine's Day, he finally built up enough courage to tell his mother. She said "Pffffft, I've known that since you were 3 years old. I'll always love you."

Tell me how ing cool that is? Hes standing up in my wedding and probably the best friend we have.

It's so true, because if you've ever known gay people for most of your life they have pretty much always drifted that way since they were young, without even knowing what being gay meant. But people are so ignorant and some are so quick to place being gay in conflict with their religious doctrines.

I have one friend, sadly, who thinks people are gay because they are cursed.That persons related to them did in the past who were immoral, or evil have brought on consequences in the form of cursing family members in the future.

Yes, people are this pessimistic

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Though I believe that there is a genetic basis for being gay, like you say. It's also true that many people do choose to be gay. I don't believe for a second that every person who commits sexual acts was born to it.

I lived (roommates) with a lesbian girl for a couple years after college, and I firmly believe she was born gay - she had feelings for women since she was a kid. But also in Los Angeles, I definitely knew a lot of people who were part-time gay just for the novelty of it, or didn't care what sex they were getting sex from, or decided that men had treated them poorly so they were going to only sleep with women from now on, etc.

Basically I'm saying though some people are born gay, other people choose to be gay.

THIS IS NOT MY STANCE, JUST A POINT OF VIEW: Some people will argue that even those that are born gay should know that it's "morally wrong" and be able to stop themselves from committing sexual acts. Just like some people might be born with a pre-disposition to violence, yet realize that it's wrong, so they control the urge and don't go around killing people.

The only difference between being pre-disposed to want to kill people/commit violent acts is that it is clearly unnacceptable in our society. This fact keeps a lot of people who are inclined to want to kill stop, and go against their desires/predispositions.

For being a sexual, though, there isn't any consequence in the form of law. They have no reason to not go through with their desires/inclinations, unless they want to avoid the criticism from people.

[sprrs]

im done.

Think ab out it like this. I'm assuming you know at least one person who isn't christian. Do you hate them for it? Do you avoid them? I doubt it. If sexuality is immoral according to the bible, then I can only imagine how bad following a different religion is.

Even if sexuality is a choice, there's nothing that should keep you from openly accepting them, especially in this country. Just like you accept someone who is of a different religion.

[Medvedenko]

Look...I'm straight...but how did I know I was straight...I loved women from since I can remember....Also a homesexual act doesn't make you "gay"....women kissing other women doesn't make you a lesbian. It doesn't work that way. Bi-sexuality is a farce as well. Also, why the would anyone choose to be gay in this world when they get on by most people. Seriously, some people are born gay, just like I was born straight. Choosing to kiss a dude or kiss a women is a choice, doesn't make you gay or straight.

[Kori Ellis]

The only difference between being pre-disposed to want to kill people/commit violent acts is that it is clearly unnacceptable in our society. This fact keeps a lot of people who are inclined to want to kill stop, and go against their desires/predispositions.

For being a sexual, though, there isn't any consequence in the form of law. They have no reason to not go through with their desires/inclinations, unless they want to avoid the criticism from people.

Or they think it's morally wrong. Which was my point in the post.

Many people believe that we might be predispositioned or inclined to do things that are wrong morally and/or legally, but our morals keep us from doing them.

Again, this is not my whole stance on the gay issue. However, I know several Christian people in LA who chose a life a celibacy because they were attracted to members of the same sex, but felt sexual was morally wrong.

The theory being, if you feel that sexuality is a sin, then you would try to avoid committing these sinful acts like you do any other sinful act.

Anyway, my stance is that I think some people are genetically born with sexual tendencies. But I think others actually choose to be gay.

And some believe that even those who may be genetically born with the tendency, can and should try to avoid it.

[Medvedenko]

Kori...do you choose to be straight.....

[clambake]

Lebron James made some controversial remarks, first. What if....what if Stern paid Hardeway to take a foul for the future of the NBA? Remove focus from the NBA's budding star.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Or they think it's morally wrong. Which was my point in the post.

Many people believe that we might be predispositioned or inclined to do things that are wrong morally and/or legally, but our morals keep us from doing them.

Again, this is not my whole stance on the gay issue. However, I know several Christian people in LA who chose a life a celibacy because they were attracted to members of the same sex, but felt sexual was morally wrong.

The theory being, if you feel that sexuality is a sin, then you would try to avoid committing these sinful acts like you do any other sinful act.

Anyway, my stance is that I think some people are genetically born with sexual tendencies. But I think others actually choose to be gay.

And some believe that even those who may be genetically born with the tendency, can and should try to avoid it.

Exactly. Good post.

[CuckingFunt]

Bi-sexuality is a farce as well.

How do you figure?

[atxrocker]

It'll be sad when this thread dies and PMD is no more. Until the next gay bashing thread that is. A damn shame.

[Capt Bringdown]

You really have to wonder why some people are so obsessed with and so threatened by other people's sexuality. Perhaps Tim Hardaway doesn't have a firm grasp on his own sexuality? It must be a drag to be so frightened and unsure, and that's typically when hate enters the picture. A classic closet-case, to be sure.

The NBA's a worldwide sport nowadays, with no room for provincial bigotry and backward thinking. As Amaechi pointed out, perhaps there's some good to come out of this. I've got no doubt that Hardaway's opinion is shared by a lot of players and fans...maybe this is a chance to start a dialogue between those who hate and those who accept and love.

[CuckingFunt]

I just like to gay bash, cuz they hetero bash way too much..so 'em.

That's asinine. "Bashing" is a lot different when one one the people/groups involved is clearly in a position of power.

[sabar]

Is this joke of a thread still going?
This is a chronical of our society. A cross section of bigotry in the United States and elsewhere.

If being straight is natural, I'd like to hear an explanation for sexual animals. Do male ducks get together just to start controversy and promote a "gay agenda" among their species? 6-8% of rams (male sheep) are sexual. What about sexuality in primative tribes which are totally secluded from today's popular society?

People are quick to say "oh, it's unnatural". Guess what, only 6% of animal species are monogamous, many animals masturbate, and many birds rape other birds to death. But where are the people rushing to embrace what is natural?

Does anyone here have a real arguement against sexuality?
This idiocy spawns stuff like the Westboro Baptist Church and the Final Solution.

[jochhejaam]

I, like alot of you morons in this thread, used to think homsexuality was a choice. While I still believe its fashionable to be gay these days and alot of people do choose to be gay, I finally realized people are born gay.

He came out (officially) last year at age 25. Just this Valentine's Day, he finally built up enough courage to tell his mother. She said "Pffffft, I've known that since you were 3 years old. "

Labeling those with opposing view as "morons" doesn't lend one iota of credibility to your view DR, it merely serves to expose you as having nothing substantial to contribute to the discussion along with being arrogant.

The lady new her son was gay at the age of three?? The parents role, in part, is to give our children direction in life, not to support them in everything decision they make. They encouraged him into a lifestyle that they had to know would alienate and stigmatize him from the mainstream populace. Well done. That's called dsyfunctional parenting.

And I thought Hardaway was ignorant. He ain't got nothin' on them or you in this matter.


Not that you are open minded, but some in the forum are, and here's what the scientific community has to say about being born gay or being born with sexual genetics;

Is There a "Gay Gene"?
Many laymen now believe that sexuality is part of who a person really is * from the moment of conception.


The "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media. Is sexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature?


No. There is no evidence that shows that sexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.




How The Public Was Misled


In July of 1993, the prestigious research journal Science published a study by Dean Hamer which claims that there might be a gene for sexuality. Research seemed to be on the verge of proving that sexuality is innate, genetic and therefore unchangeablea normal variant of human nature.


Soon afterward, National Public Radio trumpeted those findings. Newsweek ran the cover story, "Gay Gene?" The Wall Street Journal announced, "Research Points Toward a Gay Gene...Normal Variation."


Of course, certain necessary qualifiers were added within those news stories. But only an expert knew what those qualifiers meant. The vast majority of readers were urged to believe that sexuals had been proven to be "born that way."


In order to grasp what is really going on, one needs to understand some littleknown facts about behavioral genetics.




Gene Linkage Studies


Dean Hamer and his colleagues had performed a common type of behavioral genetics investigation called the "linkage study." Researchers identify a behavioral trait that runs in a family, and then:


a) look for a chromosomal variant in the genetic material of that family, and

b) determine whether that variant is more frequent in family members who share the particular trait.


To the layman, the "correlation" of a genetic structure with a behavioral trait means that trait "is genetic"-in other words, inherited.


In fact, it means absolutely nothing of the sort, and it should be emphasized that there is virtually no human trait without innumerable such correlations.




Scientists Know the Truth about "Gay Gene" Research


But before we consider the specifics, here is what serious scientists think about recent genetics-of-behavior research. From Science, 1994:


Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromosomal regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated. "Unfortunately," says Yale's [Dr. Joel] Gelernter, "it's hard to come up with many" findings linking specific genes to complex human behaviors that have been replicated. "...All were announced with great fanfare; all were greeted unskeptically in the popular press; all are now in disrepute."{1}




sexual Twin Studies


Two American activists recently published studies showing that if one of a pair of identical twins is sexual, the other member of the pair will be, too, in just under 50% of the cases. On this basis, they claim that " sexuality is genetic."


But two other genetic researchers--one heads one of the largest genetics departments in the country, the other is at Harvard--comment:


While the authors interpreted their findings as evidence for a genetic basis for sexuality, we think that the data in fact provide strong evidence for the influence of the environment.{2}

The author of the lead article on genes and behavior in a special issue of Science speaks of the renewed scientific recognition of the importance of environment. He notes the growing understanding that:


... the interaction of genes and environment is much more complicated than the simple "violence genes" and intelligence genes" touted in the popular press.The same data that show the effects of genes, also point to the enormous influence of nongenetic factors.{3}






More Modest Claims to the Scientific Community


Researchers' public statements to the press are often grand and far-reaching. But when answering the scientific community, they speak much more cautiously.


"Gay gene" researcher Dean Hamer was asked by Scientific American if sexuality was rooted solely in biology. He replied:


"Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."{4}

But in qualifying their findings, researchers often use language that will surely evade general understanding making statements that will continue to be avoided by the popular press, such as:


...the question of the appropriate significance level to apply to a nonMendelian trait such as sexual orientation is problematic.{5}

Sounds too complex to bother translating? This is actually a very important statement. In layman's terms, this means:


It is not possible to know what the findings mean--if anything--since sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is.


Thus, to their fellow scientists, the researchers have been honestly acknowledging the limitations of their research. However, the media doesn't understand that message. Columnist Ann Landers, for example, tells her readers that " sexuals are born, not made." The media offers partial truths because the scientific reality is simply too unexciting to make the evening news; too complex for mass consumption; and furthermore, not fully and accurately understood by reporters.




Accurate Reporting Will Never Come in "Sound Bites"


There are no "lite," soundbite versions of behavioral genetics that are not fundamentally in error in one way or another.


Nonetheless, if one grasps at least some of the basics, in simple form, it will be possible to see exactly why the current research into sexuality means so littleand will continue to mean little, even should the quality of the research methods improveso long as it remains driven by political, rather than scientific objectives.




Understanding the Theory


There are only two major principles that need to be carefully understood in order to see through the distortions of the recent research. They are as follows:


1. Heritable does not mean inherited.

2. Genetics research which is truly meaningful will identify, and then focus on, only traits that are directly inherited.

Almost every human characteristic is in significant measure heritable. But few human behavioral traits are directly inherited, in the manner of height, for example, or eye color. Inherited means "directly determined by genes," with little or no way of preventing or modifying the trait through a change in the environment.



For those interested in reading the entire article, here's the link.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Not that you are open minded, but some in the forum are, and here's what the scientific community has to say about being born gay or being born with sexual genetics;

I for one am shocked, shocked, at what the National Association for Research and Therapy of sexuality has to say about this issue.

But seriously, how do you talk about an open mind and then link to that? What colour is the sky in your world?