At the risk of suffering...

[Jamtas#2]

The percentage of college bound blacks has dropped since the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Explain that.

You do realize blacks weren't barred from attending college, right? Just certain colleges. And, while that was wrong, it didn't prevent them from getting a good education should they have chosen to.

The United Negro College Fund was founded in 1944. Many black business leaders of today were college-educated prior to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Drop of percentage could be explained by the further widening gap between the haves and the have nots. Unless you believe therre is no correlation between having more money and going to college.

Yes, I realize they weren't barred from attending every college. But you must agree that the less opportunity to go to college, the less people will be attending.

Please. Business successes -- both black and white -- abound with rags-to-riches stories of how these people overcame their poor, squalid upbringings to be successful.

I know and agree. That is why I said it is not impossible, but much more difficult. Unless you believe there are more rags to riches stories than there are rags staying in rags.

I would suggest the number of blacks actually wanting to go to college has decreased and that economics has nothing to do with that.

And I would suggest that economics has a lot to do with it. You are more likely to strive for college in a family where it is financially feasible and/or the parents have gone to college as well.

In some ways, the current situation is more racially charged than it was 40 years ago. Many whites -- alot of whom fought for racially equity and civil rights, right alongside of blacks -- are standing with people like Bill Cosby and wondering just when in the blacks are going to stop blaming whitey and start acting responsible.

And in many ways the current situation is less racially charged than 40 years ago. Hate crimes and public Klan messages are vastly less than they were then. It definately is a different situation now than it was then, I'd agree to that.

[Yonivore]

Jamtas#2, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The race-baiters, in this thread, have become a distraction and I've lost the desire to try and keep up with the various trains of thought coming from the various responses in here.

I believe the black community is culturally more violent than any other group. And, I believe they have no acceptable reason for being so.

[By the way, during the time period in which this thread has played itself out, I had a relative (a hispanic man, distantly related by marriage) who was attacked and hospitalized by a mob of about 20 blacks as he was leaving work late last week. So far as I know, it hasn't made the news. What's funny, is the ultra-liberal in our family believes -- without any supporting evidence -- it was the same group that attacked and killed that hispanic man last Tuesday. The attack happened in the entertainment district of Austin and, so far as I know, was unrelated to the Tuesday murder. Go figure...I get support for my thesis as we move through the week...so, sue me for thinking blacks, culturally, are more violent than other races]

[Extra Stout]

Drop of percentage could be explained by the further widening gap between the haves and the have nots. Unless you believe therre is no correlation between having more money and going to college.

In 1966, the black poverty rate was 42%. In 2002, it was 24%.

A better rebuttal would have been to demonstrate that Yoni's point is false. In 1964, 4% of blacks were college graduates. Today, that number is 15%.

For whites, it is 25%.

[Jamtas#2]

In 1966, the black poverty rate was 42%. In 2002, it was 24%.

A better rebuttal would have been to demonstrate that Yoni's point is false. In 1964, 4% of blacks were college graduates. Today, that number is 15%.

For whites, it is 25%.

Thanks for providing the numbers. I agree with your post.

[Yonivore]

Thanks for providing the numbers. I agree with your post.

I think those percentages are of total population but, I'd like to see his source because, I'm finding the stats elusive.

[Jamtas#2]

Jamtas#2, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The race-baiters, in this thread, have become a distraction and I've lost the desire to try and keep up with the various trains of thought coming from the various responses in here.

I believe the black community is culturally more violent than any other group. And, I believe they have no acceptable reason for being so.

[By the way, during the time period in which this thread has played itself out, I had a relative (a hispanic man, distantly related by marriage) who was attacked and hospitalized by a mob of about 20 blacks as he was leaving work late last week. So far as I know, it hasn't made the news. What's funny, is the ultra-liberal in our family believes -- without any supporting evidence -- it was the same group that attacked and killed that hispanic man last Tuesday. The attack happened in the entertainment district of Austin and, so far as I know, was unrelated to the Tuesday murder. Go figure...I get support for my thesis as we move through the week...so, sue me for thinking blacks, culturally, are more violent than other races]

Agree to disagree it is. But to just touch on one thing I have left alone for the duration of this thread, your thinking of attaching a stigma to an entire race is racism. That was not the point of this discussion so I left it alone. But as you said above that your knee jerk reaction was to write about the African American race, and your example above of the distant relative being attacked used to justify your sterotype again is racism. Having that belief is a racist point of view. Whites commit numerous violent acts every day as well, does race play into your mind when you hear about them, or to you attribute their violence to something other than race or culture? When the OK City bombing occurred, did you question what was wrong with the white race? Or Colombine?
The fact that you consider race a factor for African Americans does show your feelings about race. This isn't saying that you are a closet Klan member with an extreme hate on.

I'm not going to call you names, just tell you my viewpoint. And I appreciate the civility of this discussion for what it is worth.

[Extra Stout]

I think those percentages are of total population but, I'd like to see his source because, I'm finding the stats elusive.

Census Bureau.

[Extra Stout]

I believe the black community is culturally more violent than any other group. And, I believe they have no acceptable reason for being so.

"Acceptable" reason? So you think black people have some group moral defect?

Enough with the civility. You're a racist.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Please. Business successes -- both black and white -- abound with rags-to-riches stories of how these people overcame their poor, squalid upbringings to be successful

.

There might be a bunch of stories about people going from rags to riches, but I'm reluctant believe that there are more poor people - of any race - that are able to escape poverty than stay. The few that do escape poverty are small minority and are lucky.

I would suggest the number of blacks actually wanting to go to college has decreased and that economics has nothing to do with that.

You suggest? How the would you know? Give me facts that support that.

But lets just the assume the number of blacks who don't want a college education has increased.

In that case, there would be a plethora of environmental factors influencing that decision, such as:

How many of them have/had two parents?
If they didn't have/don't have two parents, how did/does that determine their educational level?
If they had/have two parents, were/are they adequate role models?
If they didn't have/don't have adequate role models how did/does this determine their educational level?

A child with parents making sufficient money is capable of concentrating on his studies
A child with adequate role models for parents is able to be learn about morals and function moraly

my point is, we aren't born with morals, or the will to go to school. We are taught these values from our parents and/or peers if we're lucky enough to have them.

A ghetto, is for the most part, unles you're lucky, a place where the values that need to be taught aren't. The only values that are taught are the ones that are going to help you survive the ghetto, not our world. Don't confuse the two. The values aren't interchangeable.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

double post

[Ronaldo McDonald]

double post

[Yonivore]

Agree to disagree it is. But to just touch on one thing I have left alone for the duration of this thread, your thinking of attaching a stigma to an entire race is racism. That was not the point of this discussion so I left it alone. But as you said above that your knee jerk reaction was to write about the African American race, and your example above of the distant relative being attacked used to justify your sterotype again is racism. Having that belief is a racist point of view. Whites commit numerous violent acts every day as well,

As a mob?

does race play into your mind when you hear about them, or to you attribute their violence to something other than race or culture? When the OK City bombing occurred, did you question what was wrong with the white race? Or Colombine?

Were either perpetrated by a mob?

The fact that you consider race a factor for African Americans does show your feelings about race. This isn't saying that you are a closet Klan member with an extreme hate on.

Nice of you to say. I could go into all my perfectly normal and amenable relationships with African-Americans in my private and professional life but, unless I'm willing to completely expose myself to the nuts on this forum, that's not going to happen in a verifiable way.

So, I'm satisfied I'm not a racist.

I'm not going to call you names, just tell you my viewpoint. And I appreciate the civility of this discussion for what it is worth.

As do I. Thanks for sticking with it through some of the nonsense.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Jamtas#2, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The race-baiters, in this thread, have become a distraction and I've lost the desire to try and keep up with the various trains of thought coming from the various responses in here.

I believe the black community is culturally more violent than any other group. And, I believe they have no acceptable reason for being so.

[By the way, during the time period in which this thread has played itself out, I had a relative (a hispanic man, distantly related by marriage) who was attacked and hospitalized by a mob of about 20 blacks as he was leaving work late last week. So far as I know, it hasn't made the news. What's funny, is the ultra-liberal in our family believes -- without any supporting evidence -- it was the same group that attacked and killed that hispanic man last Tuesday. The attack happened in the entertainment district of Austin and, so far as I know, was unrelated to the Tuesday murder. Go figure...I get support for my thesis as we move through the week...so, sue me for thinking blacks, culturally, are more violent than other races]

Again, this all goes back what you value most out of life. Most blacks aren't taught what to value most. They learn about how they are supposed to survive in the ghetto.

Because they are being taught to survive in an environment different than the one we know, they will inevitabley display these behaviors and survival traits in settings outside the ghetto. Just as a rich white person walking into ghetto is going to display behaviors associated with his own environment.

This is why the ones that are lucky enough to learn the correct values while living in the ghetto are often the ones who are able to adapt to the society without violating the law.

[Marcus Bryant]

"Acceptable" reason? So you think black people have some group moral defect?

Enough with the civility. You're a racist.

He's all but endorsed the "Final Solution" for that "community".

[cornbread]

People care. But, try to be a caring white person in the heart of East Austin.

I was a caring white person in the heart of East Austin for the last few years before moving to San Antonio. I stayed out late, went to bars/clubs, walked by myself at night, and never once found any trouble. In my 7 years in Austin, I only experienced violence when I had a run in with some drunk white frat boys on the other side of town. 3 on 1 jumping, similar to a mob type of situation.

Most people were actually more friendly on the East side than what I experienced on when I lived in West Austin.

I also mentored in a media program at East Austin's Reagan High School. This school only gets media attention when something goes wrong so the program was meant to give these kids a voice so they could tell their own stories, rather than have the media create an image for them. It's their opportunity to respond to or even preempt remarks like, "try being a caring white person in East Austin". Here's the website for the program. www.eastaustinstories.org. East Austin has so much more to offer than what you've heard, read, or been told about the Juneteenth murder. I recommend checking it out.

[Yonivore]

"Acceptable" reason? So you think black people have some group moral defect?

Enough with the civility. You're a racist.

You've been civil?

But, yeah, I think they have a cultural defect when in groups and I think their behavior is only encouraged by the sense of some en lement to be violent in response to every perceived offense.

[Marcus Bryant]

You can't make this up.

[Marcus Bryant]

You've been civil?

But, yeah, I think they have a cultural defect when in groups and I think their behavior is only encouraged by the sense of some en lement to be violent in response to every perceived offense.

Damn, even the Klan disagrees with you.

[ChumpDumper]

I would suggest the number of blacks actually wanting to go to college has decreased and that economics has nothing to do with that.

The facts would suggest you are full of .

The latest report may not reflect precisely what many consider the South, because the 16 states it covers also include border states Kentucky, Delaware, West Virginia and Maryland.

Still, the report reflects the reality that many more Southern blacks are enrolling in college. In those states, about 1.1 million black students were enrolled in college in the fall of 2005, 52 percent more than a decade earlier.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...tion-headlines

It was really just a matter of time before you started making up again, wasn't it?

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I think the real issue dealing with African American culture flew right over Yaminoveres head. This is why he's a racist.

Instead of attempting to ask the important questions he decided to take a cheap shot at the culture by saying they are more likely to mob than any other group.

This is akin to saying that White culture in America is defective because they produce more pedophiles. Or that Mexicans are more likely to steal.

The fact of the matter is when uneducated, stupid, and morally corrupt people get together imminent stupid and violent is going to happen. When was the last time a bunch of uneducated, stupid, and morally corrupt white people got together?

In a baseball game. And the same thing ing happens doesn't it?

The real question is, why is Black community producing so many indaquate parents?

[Extra Stout]

The fact of the matter is when uneducated, stupid, and morally corrupt people get together imminent stupid and violent is going to happen. When was the last time a bunch of uneducated, stupid, and morally corrupt white people got together?

In a baseball game. And the same thing ing happens doesn't it?

The real question is, why is Black community producing so many indaquate parents?

It's a vicious circle that I think started with the collapse of the black blue-collar economy.

With fathers unable to support their families economically, the families broke up. Increasingly, black boys grew up without father figures. More of them made bad choices -- sexual promiscuity, drugs, crime. Then they impregnate women, but haven't developed the ethic of responsibility to care for them. So those children grow up without fathers.

Even once a black man gets it together later in life, he carries a lot of baggage: children by several women, health problems due to drug use, a criminal record, limited job prospects due to a lack of education and the unavailability of blue-collar work. For a black woman, there's not necessarily any advantage to getting married under the status quo.

The circle has to be broken at some point, but how?

[Marcus Bryant]

Of note is that poor whites tend to show those same social pathologies.

[Extra Stout]

Of note is that poor whites tend to show those same social pathologies.

One thing that has changed from the past is that in previous days, women had very limited opportunities to support themselves without a husband, and so there was stronger incentive to marry, even when the prospects of the marriage were not as good. Now, a woman is far likelier to be able to support herself.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

It's a vicious circle that I think started with the collapse of the black blue-collar economy.

With fathers unable to support their families economically, the families broke up. Increasingly, black boys grew up without father figures. More of them made bad choices -- sexual promiscuity, drugs, crime. Then they impregnate women, but haven't developed the ethic of responsibility to care for them. So those children grow up without fathers.

Even once a black man gets it together later in life, he carries a lot of baggage: children by several women, health problems due to drug use, a criminal record, limited job prospects due to a lack of education and the unavailability of blue-collar work. For a black woman, there's not necessarily any advantage to getting married under the status quo.

The circle has to be broken at some point, but how?

Minimum wage has to rise otherwise kids with parents who are w/o education remain educated themselves throughout thier lives - having to help support family instead of being able to concentrate on academics. Like you said, it's a cycle.

Most white kids are given sufficient time and energy to concentrate on schooling. , a lot don't even have to do anything, they just take on their parents' investments.

So it all starts with increasing minimum wage, enough so that this generation of black kids who have grown up without two parents don't have to work - I've known some of these inner city kids who have held three jobs while attending school.

Increasing minimum wage wil give them ALL a chance to succeed.

i'm in a rush but i'll post more about this later

[Yonivore]

I think the real issue dealing with African American culture flew right over Yaminoveres head. This is why he's a racist.

Instead of attempting to ask the important questions he decided to take a cheap shot at the culture by saying they are more likely to mob than any other group.

I simply asked the question. Is it or is it not more likely that blacks will engaged in mob violence?

This is akin to saying that White culture in America is defective because they produce more pedophiles.

That too is a fair question. Except many whites would argue there is no white "culture," per se. But, it is disturbing that most of th pedophiles and, for that matter, domestic terrorists are white.

I think it's certainly fair to ask the question of whether or not there is some cultural influence...some cultural influence that only whites experience. For instance, domestic terrorists tend to be associated with extreme religious ideologies or supremecist organizations -- both of which tend to attract whites more than any other race.

So, explore that if you like, I don't consider it racist. Just as I don't consider my observation that most mob violence is instigated by blacks a racist proposition. If it's true, what are the causes? If it's not, show me where such behavior is more prevalent in other cultures.

Or that Mexicans are more likely to steal.

Absent any demostrable evidence this is true -- which, beyond typical stereotypes, does not exist; this is as racist as claiming blacks are more likely to be lazy.

Mob violence is, I believe, beyond a racial stereotype. Nor was I trying to create some racial stereotype. I wholeheartedly agree that I was ineloquent in how I've proposed this issue but, oh well, sue me.

No one has persuaded me that mob violence isn't something that seems to be more prevalent in the black culture than in any other.

The fact of the matter is when uneducated, stupid, and morally corrupt people get together imminent stupid and violent is going to happen. When was the last time a bunch of uneducated, stupid, and morally corrupt white people got together?

The KKK pops to mind...and, apparently through no fault of their own (I'm guessing) they've been restrained from committing any mob violence for quite some time now.

But, this begs a bigger question. Why are you assuming that all black mob violence is engaged in by uneducated, stupid, and morally corrupt black people? Does that make you a racist?

In a baseball game. And the same thing ing happens doesn't it?

That's rich.

But, actually, I think the police officers kicking Rodney King's ass is more analogous to what you describe than is mob violence in black communities.

The real question is, why is Black community producing so many indaquate parents?

Absolutely, another good question. And, while that may be the "real" question for black Americans, answering that won't help the Reginald Dennys of the world.