Bowen's reputation on display once again!!

[Obstructed_View]

Does having zero speeding tickets mean a person never speeds?

That's not the question. If the cops set up a speed trap to watch you because all your neighbors have been complaining about your driving for 12 years, having zero speeding tickets is fairly convincing evidence when someone accuses you of being the worst speeder in the history of traffic.

[Obstructed_View]

Basically Bruce Bowen is Ron Artest, but he hasn't abused dogs, run into the stands after a fan, demanded a trade, or beat his wife.

And he's never been suspended.

It seems like in the NBA unless you are a high profile star (i.e. Kobe "following through on his shot") or a high profile nutcase (i.e. SJax, Artest, David Harrison, pretty much everyone who has worn a Pacer uniform), then you don't get suspended for (relatively) minor on-the-court activity.

You've figured it out. The NBA wants to unfairly suspend its biggest stars who draw fans to every city they play in, and they do this so they can protect a guy who scores 4 points per game in the league's smallest market.

I mean, compare Artest elbowing Manu 2 years ago...

and Tim Duncan, and Tony Parker. All in the same game, a game in which he was hit in the mouth on the first play of the game. If Manu had hit anyone else in that game he'd have gotten a suspension.

to Raja Bell clotheslining Kobe and tell me those both deserved a 1 game suspension? Bell's would probably have been at least 2 in the regular season. Also, thanks to Bell's move on Kobe, he was a target for Stu and Co. so he got a 1-gamer for hitting Bargnani in the nuts last year (a play that I didn't even see in real time during the game... and one the broadcast team in Toronto didn't replay).

So the league was watching Raja which is why they dropped the hammer on him for kicking Bargnani, but they've never suspended Bowen even though they've been watching him for 12 years. , even the one time the League called Bowen and gave him a warning his coach came to his defense and they ran away with their tail between their legs.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Bowen did nothing wrong, over acting by CP3, plus he grabbed onto Bowen

[RonMexico]

You've figured it out. The NBA wants to unfairly suspend its biggest stars who draw fans to every city they play in, and they do this so they can protect a guy who scores 4 points per game in the league's smallest market.

I'm not saying Stu Jackson is intelligent at all when it comes to describing Kobe's actions as "unnatural" and suspending him from a game in Madison Square Garden.

Also, what Bell did to Bargnani isn't much different than when Bowen kneed Nash in the groin... except Bowen had the ball. Bell didn't even get called for a foul on the play. Bowen kneeing Ray Allen in the back was a worse play (I'm going to assume you never saw the Bell play because then you wouldn't speak like that)

It's a lot easier for the league to suspend an on-and-off court multiple offender (Artest) in the playoffs for intentional plays, or suspend players based on the "letter of the law" (Diaw and Stoudemire), than it is to interpret a knee to the groin by Bowen.

You think they would have suspended Kobe for his move on Manu if it happened in the playoffs? I highly doubt it - the uproar from Zen Master would have make the Earth rattle. I think a similar uproar from Pop would have occurred if they dropped the hammer on Bowen, since Pop already did complain once during the regular season, causing the league to cower like one of Artest's dogs.

[Obstructed_View]

Suspend them both then.

That's as close as you're ever likely to get to an admission that Bowen was retaliating. I'm fine with suspending both of them because at least it gets out that Bowen got punched BEFORE he did anything wrong. Bowen should know better than to retaliate, because he's never going to get cut any slack. Every bad-at ude loser that has to face him uses the "hold and grab" line, despite Bowen almost never being in foul trouble. Their fans continue to buy it and perpetuate it, so it persists.

[RonMexico]

despite Bowen almost never being in foul trouble. Their fans continue to buy it and perpetuate it, so it persists.

Remember, these are the same officials that let Amare Stoudemire and Shaquille O'Neal stay on the court with 5 fouls each.

Even though the Suns won, I won't support the judgment of officiating crews.

[ClingingMars]

That's not biased, that's being realistic. Bowen is a dirty player. There's no great debate here.

obviously THERE IS A ING DEBATE BECAUSE THERE'S 9 PAGES ABOUT IT.

gotta love people who are so obsessed that just want to end it in their favor.

-Mars

[Obstructed_View]

I'm not saying Stu Jackson is intelligent at all when it comes to describing Kobe's actions as "unnatural" and suspending him from a game in Madison Square Garden.

But Kobe hit two different guys in the face flailing in an attempt to draw a foul. He deserved the suspensions. He should have been suspended for hitting Korver as well but the league was afraid of the reaction from the Kobe fans and probably didn't want to have to lose that much more ticket revenue.

Also, what Bell did to Bargnani isn't much different than when Bowen kneed Nash in the groin... except Bowen had the ball. Bell didn't even get called for a foul on the play. Bowen kneeing Ray Allen in the back was a worse play (I'm going to assume you never saw the Bell play because then you wouldn't speak like that)

Since Bowen had the ball, he was clearing out. It happens all the time in basketball, but the defender doesn't usually fall down and roll around for two minutes. Bowen was incorrectly called for an offensive foul. I'm not sure how that calls for a suspension. I guess since Bowen never clotheslined anyone in his career, the league overlooked it. I guess if Bowen were actually a DIRTY player he'd have gotten rung up for it. If Raja Bell did the same move to someone and did NOT have the ball, I don't see how anyone could try to defend the action with a straight face.

And unless you are referring to something else, Bowen didn't knee Allen in the back, he kicked him with his foot while they were both on the floor.

It's a lot easier for the league to suspend an on-and-off court multiple offender (Artest) in the playoffs for intentional plays, or suspend players based on the "letter of the law" (Diaw and Stoudemire), than it is to interpret a knee to the groin by Bowen.

Since it was called an offensive foul, rather than what it was, a pathetic flop by a player that showed a pattern of getting himself hurt playing defense, Suns fans should probably just be happy with the turnover.

You think they would have suspended Kobe for his move on Manu if it happened in the playoffs? I highly doubt it - the uproar from Zen Master would have make the Earth rattle. I think a similar uproar from Pop would have occurred if they dropped the hammer on Bowen, since Pop already did complain once during the regular season, causing the league to cower like one of Artest's dogs.

Frankly, I'm surprised they suspended Kobe at all. The shot on Manu looked inadvertent to me. Once he hit Giricek on the exact same type of play it no longer passed the smell test. When they gave him a pass the next game for elbowing Korver in what I thought was an intentional hit, I figured they just gave up.

That said, your attempts to equate Bowen's value with Kobe's is downright laughable.

[JamStone]

That's not the question. If the cops set up a speed trap to watch you because all your neighbors have been complaining about your driving for 12 years, having zero speeding tickets is fairly convincing evidence when someone accuses you of being the worst speeder in the history of traffic.

And, if you knew where the speed traps were or had a good idea where to watch out for speed traps, you could still avoid getting speeding tickets.

My comparison is right to the point of what you've argued.

You've been implying that Bowen can't be as dirty as players that have actually been caught and suspended for being dirty.

Problem is that Bowen has worked hard to perfect a way where the dirty things that he does are hard to catch. And, he's built a reputation as a defender where officials and even the NBA gives him the benefit of the doubt. I mean, how did he not get suspended for kicking Ray Allen in the back? The majority of players in the league would have been. He's kicked a player in the face not once, but at least two times that I've seen do ented. It's multiple players in the league that claim he slides his foot under their feet on jumpers. And, video evidence supports it. Suspensions are not the only gauge of whether a player is dirty or not. Suspensions aren't even a main or primary factor in determining whether a player is dirty or not.

[Obstructed_View]

Remember, these are the same officials that let Amare Stoudemire and Shaquille O'Neal stay on the court with 5 fouls each.

Even though the Suns won, I won't support the judgment of officiating crews.

So because of your example of a questionable few minutes by one officiating crew, that means that Bowen's years of not being in foul trouble, despite his reputation as a dirty player, is because of bad officiating?

[Agloco]

Is he the dirtiest player in the NBA or what??

I know the frustration of watching your team lose by 25 points and Popovich throwing the white flag with plenty of time in the game (4, 5 minutes left in the game) are signs of losers, these things sometimes make you do some horrible things but this has to be one of the most pathetic displays in the history of the NBA:

Being a Phoenix fan you should plenty of experience with this. Thanks for coming in to render your expert opinion on how to lose graciously. Well said.

[btimsah]

I'm sure a San Antonio fan will see nothing wrong with this, because compared to Bowen's past dirty deed's it is rather weak.

Here's a good compilation of Bowen, and how he represents San Antonio;

[JamStone]

Paul gets in a couple "Hodges" and then does a Steve Nash flop to top it off.

Sorry, even at that angle, it doesn't seem clear at all. First, I only saw one time that Paul actually hit him in between the legs. And, that one time, the basketball was still right there by Paul's hand as he was trying to gain possession of it. Not saying Paul didn't do it on purpose, but in that scrum for the basketball, there's at least an argument that he was just trying to get the basketball. I didn't see any other "Hodge" in the video.

I'm being as objective as possible. I like both players. I have no rooted interest in either team or defending either player. Paul probably hit him there on purpose, and he would be wrong for it. But, it's not clear as some of you are making it. Bowen's attempt to knee Paul, even if it didn't connect, can't be construed any other way but intentionally trying to knee him.

[ClingingMars]

Remember, these are the same officials that let Amare Stoudemire and Shaquille O'Neal stay on the court with 5 fouls each.

Even though the Suns won, I won't support the judgment of officiating crews.

No but if it his play was EXTREMELY bad, with his "reputation", don't you think he would AT LEAST foul out occasionally? i need to find his average fouls per game, pretty sure it's very low.

-Mars

[Kori Ellis]

Sorry, even at that angle, it doesn't seem clear at all.

40 second mark
46 second mark - very very clear

Pretty damn clear and this isn't even high-def.

I don't even see Bowen trying to "knee" Paul in his head. I just seeing him pulling his leg away and Paul flopping back.

[Obstructed_View]

And, if you knew where the speed traps were or had a good idea where to watch out for speed traps, you could still avoid getting speeding tickets.

The league has every minute of Bowen's court time on video. Are you saying Bowen does all these things when the cameras aren't on him? If he's that good at avoiding evidence of his nefarious intent, then he's superhuman.

You've been implying that Bowen can't be as dirty as players that have actually been caught and suspended for being dirty.

Problem is that Bowen has worked hard to perfect a way where the dirty things that he does are hard to catch.

Again, if all these things he does are on video, how is it that nobody catches him?

And do you happen to have some evidence of him working hard to perfect a way to do dirty things and get away with it? I presume you wouldn't declare something so damning without absolute evidence to support it. Until you do, I suggest that your opinions are clouding your judgment.

And, he's built a reputation as a defender where officials and even the NBA gives him the benefit of the doubt.

But I thought he'd built a reputation as one of the dirtiest players in the league, and it's common knowledge that he intentionally slides his feet under defenders in an attempt to cause them serious injury. Why would the NBA give him benefit of the doubt? I don't know either, but keep throwing it out there; perhaps nobody else will question your logic.

I mean, how did he not get suspended for kicking Ray Allen in the back? The majority of players in the league would have been.

He retaliated to Allen jumping into him, everybody on the floor knew that's what he did, and it wasn't much of a kick. It was stupid, and he got fined for it, but you need to watch the play and then attempt to come in here and suggest with any conviction that Bowen was trying to hurt Allen. Implying that the league is somehow overlooking the rules of the game for Bowen's benefitis completely ludicrous.

He's kicked a player in the face not once, but at least two times that I've seen do ented. It's multiple players in the league that claim he slides his foot under their feet on jumpers. And, video evidence supports it. Suspensions are not the only gauge of whether a player is dirty or not. Suspensions aren't even a main or primary factor in determining whether a player is dirty or not.

So everybody says he does it, but the league has yet to do anything about it. They make a new rule and a point of emphasis for sliding your feet under shooters, but he's never been called for it. He intentionally sets out to injure players, but he's never really injured anybody. Suspensions aren't the gaugue of whether he's dirty because he's never been suspended. Fouls aren't the gauge of whether he's dirty because he doesn't get in foul trouble. He does all these terrible things but he's so good at doing them that you can't even see them on videotape.

Are you listening to yourself? Really?

[Obstructed_View]

Sorry, even at that angle, it doesn't seem clear at all. First, I only saw one time that Paul actually hit him in between the legs. And, that one time, the basketball was still right there by Paul's hand as he was trying to gain possession of it. Not saying Paul didn't do it on purpose, but in that scrum for the basketball, there's at least an argument that he was just trying to get the basketball. I didn't see any other "Hodge" in the video.

I'm being as objective as possible. I like both players. I have no rooted interest in either team or defending either player. Paul probably hit him there on purpose, and he would be wrong for it. But, it's not clear as some of you are making it. Bowen's attempt to knee Paul, even if it didn't connect, can't be construed any other way but intentionally trying to knee him.

[Obstructed_View]

I still hate him for other reasons.

He still pulled the "kick him while he's down, then pull my hands back" move.

Even though nothing CP3 did is justified. That is all.

I find it interesting that Bowen had his hands up, which usually means he knows he did something, and Paul had his hands clasped behind his back, which is typically a sign of guilt.

[koriwhat]

Problem is that Bowen has worked hard to perfect a way where the dirty things that he does are hard to catch.

so where's all the suspensions and such before he perfected this so called dirty style you speak of?

[JamStone]

The league has every minute of Bowen's court time on video. Are you saying Bowen does all these things when the cameras aren't on him? If he's that good at avoiding evidence of his nefarious intent, then he's superhuman.

Again, if all these things he does are on video, how is it that nobody catches him?

No, they have the dirty things he does on video. Which is why it's hard to believe why he hasn't been suspended several times already. Bruce always has his hands up in the air with an innocent expression to his face any time he does anything.

And do you happen to have some evidence of him working hard to perfect a way to do dirty things and get away with it? I presume you wouldn't declare something so damning without absolute evidence to support it. Until you do, I suggest that your opinions are clouding your judgment.

No, not really. But, I personally haven't seen any videotapes of Tim Duncan working on his free throws, but I assume he does. I assume players work on their game. One aspect of Bruce's game is to be physical on defense and get away with what he can get away with. Keeping his hands up and showing his palms is one thing, he even mentioned in that NBA commercial a couple years ago, that he does to try to show referees that he's not clutching and grabbing or doing other anything else dirty. My opinion is that Bruce Bowen is a very smart and physical defender that uses every advantage he can that he can get away with. Do you disagree with any of that?

But I thought he'd built a reputation as one of the dirtiest players in the league, and it's common knowledge that he intentionally slides his feet under defenders in an attempt to cause them serious injury. Why would the NBA give him benefit of the doubt? I don't know either, but keep throwing it out there; perhaps nobody else will question your logic.

Do you not understand the difference between players, officials, and the NBA? His reputation among "players" is that he's one of the dirtiest players in the league. His reputation among "officials" and the "NBA" is that he's a great defender that apparently gets the benefit of the doubt. I don't know why that is because of all the complaints against him. But, that's what it appears to be with the NBA.

He retaliated to Allen jumping into him, everybody on the floor knew that's what he did, and it wasn't much of a kick. It was stupid, and he got fined for it, but you need to watch the play and then attempt to come in here and suggest with any conviction that Bowen was trying to hurt Allen. Implying that the league is somehow overlooking the rules of the game for Bowen's benefitis completely ludicrous.

First of all, jump shooters do that all the time. It by no means excuses or justifies Bowen kicking Allen in his back. And, I didn't say he was trying to hurt Allen. I do believe he should have gotten suspended for that though.

So everybody says he does it, but the league has yet to do anything about it. They make a new rule and a point of emphasis for sliding your feet under shooters, but he's never been called for it. He intentionally sets out to injure players, but he's never really injured anybody. Suspensions aren't the gaugue of whether he's dirty because he's never been suspended. Fouls aren't the gauge of whether he's dirty because he doesn't get in foul trouble. He does all these terrible things but he's so good at doing them that you can't even see them on videotape.

Hard to explain, isn't it?

Are you listening to yourself? Really?

I read what I wrote. Your stance is as incredulous to me as mine is to you.

[JamStone]

I have no rooting interest in either player or either team.

I gave my objective opinion.

Would appear to me that your opinion of my opinion is based on your own bias.

[JamStone]

40 second mark
46 second mark - very very clear

Pretty damn clear and this isn't even high-def.

I don't even see Bowen trying to "knee" Paul in his head. I just seeing him pulling his leg away and Paul flopping back.

40 second mark... not very clear at all, especially if contact was supposed to be made while David West was blocking the view.

46 mark... clear that he hit him. I mentioned that already. Not clear that it was intentional as the basketball was right there as he was trying to grab and gain possession of it. I did say Paul probably did do it on purpose, but it's arguable that he did not and was just scrambling for the basketball.

As for Bowen's knee. He wasn't "pulling" his leg away. You don't kick your knee up and towards something if you're "pulling it away." It definitely looks like Paul flopped and there was no contact. That doesn't refute the idea of what Bowen was trying to do.

[Obstructed_View]

No, they have the dirty things he does on video. Which is why it's hard to believe why he hasn't been suspended several times already. Bruce always has his hands up in the air with an innocent expression to his face any time he does anything.

Yet he has never been suspended. I guess because standing with your hands in the air and an innocent expression on your face isn't a rule violation.

No, not really.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

My opinion is that Bruce Bowen is a very smart and physical defender that uses every advantage he can that he can get away with. Do you disagree with any of that?

No, that's my opinion completely. It does, however, fly in the face of your earlier claims that he's spent countless hours working on ways to perfect getting away with dirty play so that even people looking for it on videotape can't see it, or that he intentionally slides his feet under jump shooters.

First of all, jump shooters do that all the time.

But jump shooters land on defenders' feet all the time, but that's not important to you for the purposes of this discussion, nor is the fact that Ray Allen throws more elbows and punches at Bowen than he's ever gotten. To use your words, "It by no means excuses or justifies Bowen kicking Allen in his back." Was it stupid? Yep. Do I understand why Bowen finally got frustrated? Yep.

Out of curiosity, why do Ray Allen and Chris Paul get endless benefit of the doubt from you, despite their reputations, but Bowen doesn't get any because of his?

Hard to explain, isn't it?

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Kriz-Maxima]

I didnt see a knee nor a kick. I saw two players trying to gain posesion of the ball and the legs of one getting tangled.

[Findog]

To summarize:

Bruce is dirty. Spurs fan love Bruce because he's tough and does the little things to help the Spurs win. Some Spurs fans refuse to accept how dirty Bruce can be and will defend what he does til their faces turn blue. The majority of fans of other teams like to hate on Bruce but would love that type of player on their team. Bruce is not the only dirty player in the NBA.

We have a winner here. Why is this thread still going on? This pretty much sums it up.