Who Believes the Bible Is Literally True?

[scott]

I wonder how many of these inmates were Christians before going to jail. I've heard many convert while in prision because of obvious reasons.

No offense, but this has been addressed and readdressed in this thread. My data of religious affiliation among inmates is from surveys of inmates upon entering prisons as well as while they are in prison. And once more, the religious affiliations are by self-identification.

[NASpurs]

No offense, but this has been addressed and readdressed in this thread. My data of religious affiliation among inmates is from surveys of inmates upon entering prisons as well as while they are in prison. And once more, the religious affiliations are by self-identification.

haha sorry about that. This thread is super long and I read up til like page six or something and started over again on the last page.

Maybe I should stop skipping around on the reading in this thread and read everyone's essays.

[scott]

Again... didn't mean any offense. In fact I apologize - I shouldn't have even phrased it that way. I don't blame you for not reading this whole thing (I haven't read every post in this thread either).

[jochhejaam]

The study actually wasn't specifically about religion (or atheism) but actually about why some demographic groups are over(under)represented in prison relative to the general US population (for instance, African Americans are highly overrepresented in prisons). In fact, the le of my paper was "Why Don't Prison Populations Reflect General United States Demographics?" I did a small (but significant to me) amount of research in the Economics of Prisons during my studies.

Christians as a group are actually rather fairly represented in prisons (depending on which study you are looking at, Christians make up 75-85% of the US population - again, based on self-identification - and they make up approx. 83% of the US prison population). One of the many findings was that atheists are highly underrepresented in prisons (they make up approx. 8-14% of the US population, but only 0.2% of the prison population). Muslims are a religious group that is highly overrepresented in prisons (only ~0.5% of US population, but 7.5% of prison population).

The study's main conclusion was that education and income levels are the best predictor of "criminality" (for lack of a better word) and that religious identification has a limited causal relationship inprisonment. The section that dealt with the difference between Atheists and Christians points out that the fact the inmates are Christian is not to imply causality (they aren't criminals because they are Christians). But I will say that I conclude that Atheism isn't a cause of crime (which is an accusation occassionally tossed around, included by a former poster in this forum).

I guess I was wondering if the study was intended to be an exposé on Christianity and you answered that also. We discussed the study several months ago and the impetus for it was one question I neglected to ask. Thanks scott

[MaNuMaNiAc]

p.s. (Avoiding vague, nebulous, obscure, unintelligible, foggy, indistinguishable, and uncertain reasoning in your response would be appreciated)

shouldn't that request be extended to those trying to explain how the bible is literally true aswell?

[jochhejaam]

109. Jesus was all-powerful
Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
Jesus was not all-powerful
Mark 6:5

Response to point 109 in TexasBalla's post about contradictions.

Matt. 28:18 is after the resurrection, after all power was given to Him by the Father. John 3:35 says that the Father has given all into His hand.. could be referring to all the believers, as in other verses in John...
Mark 6:5 shows us that Jesus was limited by man's unbelief.

This is a recurring theme in the Bible, that although God is all-powerful, He chooses to limit Himself to man; that is, He chooses to wait for man's co-operation. This explains why the Bible calls His believers His fellow workers. God doesn't need man to work together with Him, yet this is His chosen means of operation. If this is how He chooses to work, this explains how He is all- powerful and yet "could not do many works of power there because of their unbelief." --MAW


For those who might have concerns regarding TexasBalla's post here's a link to a complete list countering /rebutting the alleged contradictions .

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/143contrad.html

[Leetonidas]

Hit and Run by TexasBalla?

List a couple of the alleged contradictions that really bother you Balla and we'll discuss whether they truly are contradictions.

I'm lazy as . You think I really wrote that ?

I found it on a forum I used to be active on. Some guy was ranting. I found it kinda interesting is all.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I never would have guessed jochche was a hardcore overzealous christian.

Never.

[2centsworth]

I never would have guessed jochche was a hardcore overzealous christian.

He's not overzealous. He has been fair and respectful. Maybe you're just close-minded?

[smeagol]

Tell you what smeagol - give me another word to use for those who self-indentify themselves as Christians, and I will be happy to use that word instead.

I can't. The point is people telling you they are Christians does not make them Christ-like, which is the goal of Christianity. But I guess we are running round in circles.

Then there is no conflict - as I've said numerous times in this thread, people should believe whatever they like and that I respect all religions for the common thread among them: social morality. All I want is for it to be kept out of public ins utions like schools or courthouses. Some people obviously have a problem with that.

I don't.

[Phenomanul]

[QUOTE=jochhejaam]

I think the bravatar you had may have thrown him off.



scott, was the impetus for the study?

my bad scott on the gender confusion...

[Guru of Nothing]

people telling you they are Christians does not make them Christ-like

Concur.

[Phenomanul]

How many women do you know named scott?

Again, my apologies....

Next, I'll ask these questions:

What do you call the people who believe Jesus Christ is the son of God and Savior of mankind, but at times fall victim to temptation and get caught in their transgressions and then incarcerated?

Since you call yourself Christian, I can presume that you have never sinned since you have become a Christian?

Of course I sin, I still fall victim to its deceptive grasp all the time... I am not perfect nor have I claimed perfection... but your question actually reminded me of the following passage written by Paul in his Letter to the Philipians:

Phil 3:12; Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Phil 3:13; Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,

Phil 3:14; I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Phil 3:15; All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

The bible outlines many sins that are not illegal but are worse than the sins the some people end up in jail for. You seem awefully cavalier in deciding who is a Christian and who is not, based on (admit it) your definition of what a Christian is. Not all Christians share your definition. Some faiths feel that Christianity is about acts, some feel it is about faith, many believe its about both.

Exactly... I don't know of anyone who's ended up in jail for blasphemy (not that it should be made into law)... The point is people mess up all the time and some end up in jail... some may have been strong Christians -- people that should have known better... but I'm willing to bet that many were fringe Christians -- people that never led godly lives to begin with...

That is the premise you have a hard time understanding... Be it by your definition or their self-prescribed le... your conclusion that 'Christians are more likely to end up in jail' is still based on a tabulation of Christians. Only GOD knows the sincerity of our hearts and only HE can truly discern the status of our soul.

Hence, statistical claims, both negative and positive, regarding the tendencies of Christians need to have stronger basis than a simple definition or a self-proclamation. Otherwise the conclusion is erred. I can't claim for example, that Christians are less likely to end up with a DWI or a DUI for many reasons, even if I was trying to make a valid observation about the responsibility Christians should bear... but the reason I couldn't stake that claim would be that I'm not capable of guaging the sincerity of a person's heart.

I can however, get a feel for a person's life by seeing whether or not they bear the fruit of the Spirit... again, attributes of love, joy, patience, goodness, faith, temperance, benevolence, etc... having personally understood that these are attributes that are very difficult of sustaining over the course of time, and particularly becuase they encompass many areas life, one could make a guess and say... "this person is truly striving to be Christ-like" ... even then, only GOD really knows.

The people who have been jailed identify themselves as Christians, who are you to judge they are not? The people who identify themselves as Christians but you say are something else obviously have a different definition of Christianity than you do. They can say the same as you "I'm a Christian and I'm telling you what that stands for..." and they may have gathered that definition from the very book you have.

So, tell me then - what makes a prisoner calling himself a Christian and then praying for forgiveness any different from a Christian who lusts after his neighbors wife in moments of weakness, but prays for forgiveness?

There is no tangible difference if they are both Christians as determined by GOD. The only difference is that one ended up in jail because he was convicted of a crime deemed punishable by the laws of men. We have afterall, the free-will to do as we wish... and when we do err, we will be held accountable for our actions...

Much like a parent who hurts when their children are disciplined, GOD suffers when watching us endure the consequences of our actions... but He also knows that the painstaking process offers us a route of spiritual growth and maturity... some people are just more stubborn than others and end up bearing more 'stumbling scars' than their brother...

One thing is undeniably certain; that GOD is always there to help us along.

As 2cents said: I'm most likely a liar, thief, blasphermer and adulterer at heart (of course, saying this without knowing anything I do - but that is besides the point) - a sinner just like the rest of "us" (which since it was 2cents saying it, I assumed he meant Christians). And yet you have the audacity to judge the faith of those who are jailed for lesser sins? How does your God feel about your judgements. God or no God - it is not my role on earth to Judge the faith of others. Apparently many of you "Judge not lest ye be Judged" folks don't agree (Back to the original Topic: is the Bible literally true? Is this part exempt from truth? It appears maybe so).

There is much irony in this section considering that the conclusion you are drawing from your study is that "Christians are more likely to end up in jail than an athiest"... It's an observation based on the numbers you were given but not justified due to the criteria given by GOD himself on what defines a follower... the irony is that you have been using 'the observation' as a means to then draw judgement on a particular group of society...

And you are mistaken, I'm not judging anybody... but go ahead... think whatever you want.

One more question... why is it Atheists (presumably the ultimate of all sins) manage to keep themselves out of jail?

I'll answer the question by not answering it at all... or at least not in the way you want me to...

I'll go on a limb here... How have people such as smeagol, jochhejaam, 2centsworth or myself managed to stay out of jail??? Though our particular beliefs may be different each one of us has put his trust in GOD and from what I've read of their posts... confide in HIS guidance and wisdom. There are many routes to obtaining a social "A+" and they obviously don't all require GOD's guidance, especially since the standards that dictate the "A+" grade are still only human...

I'm more concerned about making sure I 'pass' the test that is my life as this one is gauged by GOD's standard... If I succeed at this, I can assure you that I wouldn't end up in jail either...

I don't know if the athiest can claim the same since his standard of living is not predicated on a moral barometer... In fact, there is only one requirement... a lack of belief in a higher power. That's it.... welcome to the athiest club. Again, is it possible to assert whether Stalin was a 'good' or a 'bad' athiest... you're either an athiest or you're not. The good or bad modifiers are irrelevant... the same cannot be said for Christians because obviously there IS a gauge...

[jochhejaam]

I haven't compared those who claim to be Christians with those who believe the Bible to be literally true but based on the following survey it would seem most Christians believe the Bible is literally true. (not surprising)



TESTING THE FAITH
Poll: 63% of Americans
think Bible literally true
Those believing Scripture is Word of God higher among Republicans than Democrats

Posted: April 24, 2005

At a time when the public display and discourse about matters of faith have been under attack, a new poll indicates most Americans – 63 percent – believe the Bible is literally true and the Word of God.

The survey taken Thursday and Friday by Rasmussen Reports found just 24 percent thinking otherwise.

When broken down into different demographics, the poll showed 77 percent of Republicans believe in the literal truth of the Bible as do 59 percent of Democrats and 50 percent of those not affiliated with either major party.

Among Evangelical Christians, 89 percent believe the Bible is literally true and just 4 percent say it is not. Among other Protestants, 70 percent believe the Bible is literally true. That view is shared by 58 percent of Catholics.


Eighty-two percent of black Americans believe the Bible is literally true and the Word of God. Fifty-nine percent of white Americans share that view along with 71 percent of other, primarily Hispanic, Americans.

While older Americans are slightly more likely to believe in the literal truth of the Bible, 58 percent of adults under 30 hold that view.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43957

[DarkReign]

Look, some people are religious. Good for them.
Some arent. Whoopety-doo.

Basically, the religious dont have to prove anything. They have faith and God on their side. ie. If you question them youre automatically wrong.

The people posing the question had better know it before entering. While I admire your effort scott, youre still going to lose. I know this isnt a "win-lose" situation. But I am simplifying so as to not get too wordy.

They neither cite science or logic in anything they opine about. They dont have to.

Sooooooooo, my point is...if they dont have to, why should you? They say "it is, because God says so". Well, you can say, "No it isnt, because God says it isnt."

Its a very childish, I know. But really, where is this thread going?

Fruitless endeavor.

Side note: many moons ago, while arguing with other students on the merits of religion, I had so many passages quoted as counter-arguments, I figured I had to read it just to understand wtf they were trying to say.

I think I read 10 pages before I said " it." Most boring book ever.

[Phenomanul]

Look, some people are religious. Good for them.
Some arent. Whoopety-doo.

Basically, the religious dont have to prove anything. They have faith and God on their side. ie. If you question them youre automatically wrong.

The people posing the question had better know it before entering. While I admire your effort scott, youre still going to lose. I know this isnt a "win-lose" situation. But I am simplifying so as to not get too wordy.

They neither cite science or logic in anything they opine about. They dont have to.

Sooooooooo, my point is...if they dont have to, why should you? They say "it is, because God says so". Well, you can say, "No it isnt, because God says it isnt."

Its a very childish, I know. But really, where is this thread going?

Fruitless endeavor.

Side note: many moons ago, while arguing with other students on the merits of religion, I had so many passages quoted as counter-arguments, I figured I had to read it just to understand wtf they were trying to say.

I think I read 10 pages before I said " it." Most boring book ever.

No one here has tried to convince you of anything different... you're en led to your own fate, and your own beliefs... period.

And BTW I have offered scientific observations that have been brushed off as psuedo-science by people not qualified to refute said arguments.... I don't expect you all to believe what I believe... but it's rather smug for people on your side to say Christianity is a 'primitive' way of thinking.

I don't believe many of the posters here could claim to 'know' more about the natural world we live in than me... and yet, the more I study, the more I'm driven to believe in a GOD created universe. Whether you agree with me or not is your perogative... but still only an opinion.

[clambake]

"you're en led to your own fate".....I love that.......boa has spoken. Now, my fate is sealed!

[leemajors]

the bible can't be literally true, oral tradition and multiple translations distort what may have once been fact. it doesn't mean there aren't plenty of truths found within, or that there aren't many good lessons to be found within.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

"you're en led to your own fate".....I love that.......boa has spoken. Now, my fate is sealed!

[DarkReign]

No one here has tried to convince you of anything different... you're en led to your own fate, and your own beliefs... period.

And BTW I have offered scientific observations that have been brushed off as psuedo-science by people not qualified to refute said arguments.... I don't expect you all to believe what I believe... but it's rather smug for people on your side to say Christianity is a 'primitive' way of thinking.

I don't believe many of the posters here could claim to 'know' more about the natural world we live in than me... and yet, the more I study, the more I'm driven to believe in a GOD created universe. Whether you agree with me or not is your perogative... but still only an opinion.

Now, as is with most egotists, they dont say what they mean by actually saying it...

Whether you agree with me or not is your perogative... but still only an opinion. You're en led to your own fate.

Dont you mean destiny? Oh, my bad, of course not. I dont think like you, therefore I must be damned and deserve the negative connotation.

your exclusive club then. Thats why I cant stand religious people, conform or condemned. If those are my choices, then I choose Option C...Religious zealots are the true enemy of the world and I choose not to help or hurt them.

[Extra Stout]

the bible can't be literally true, oral tradition and multiple translations distort what may have once been fact. it doesn't mean there aren't plenty of truths found within, or that there aren't many good lessons to be found within.

The oral tradition argument I can grant you... the OT books as we have them were written down centuries after the purported traditional authors had died.

Some of what is written obviously makes no sense when taken strictly literally, but it remains theologically true. It conveys exactly the message to man that God intends for it to convey.

The "multiple translation" argument does not ring true, though. Many people have this misconception that the Bible was translated from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to German to King James English to Modern English or something like that. In reality, each new Bible translation is from the earliest available consensus manuscripts in the original languages. If the Bible actually had been translated half a dozen times, it would read like Chinese stereo instructions.

[Phenomanul]

Now, as is with most egotists, they dont say what they mean by actually saying it...



Dont you mean destiny? Oh, my bad, of course not. I dont think like you, therefore I must be damned and deserve the negative connotation.

your exclusive club then. Thats why I cant stand religious people, conform or condemned. If those are my choices, then I choose Option C...Religious zealots are the true enemy of the world and I choose not to help or hurt them.

Who is taking the primitive stand now??? YOU choose to run the course of your life... not me. I'm not telling you how to think am I???

So maybe destiny was the better word choice... Geez!!! Now you act all offended... give me a break.

Cite one instance when I have cursed you out... just one... Well, let me save you the time... you won't find it...

[Phenomanul]

"you're en led to your own fate".....I love that.......boa has spoken. Now, my fate is sealed!

So then you are not en led to your own beliefs??? I see... what, then is your argument about???

I just love how people seem to harp on a one-liner... and then ignore everything else...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

So then you are not en led to your own beliefs??? I see... what, then is your argument about???

I just love how people seem to harp on a one-liner... and then ignore everything else...

I think the problem was that when you said "fate" it sounded as if you were telling them they are free to choose between salvation or damnation. That's what got them all worked up. It was a missunderstanding. The problem is although it may seem like "fate" and "destiny" are similar words, in this case they have completely different meanings.

[Mr. Peabody]

Thought this was a good quote that I should share --

There seem to two kinds of searchers: those who seek to make their ego something other than it is, i.e. holy, happy, unselfish (as though you could make a fish unfish), and those who understand that all such attempts are just gesticulation and play-acting, that there is only one thing that can be done, which is to disidentify themselves with the ego, by realizing its unreality, and by becoming aware of their eternal iden y with pure being. - Fingers Pointing Toward the Moon by Wei Wu Wei