I remember ST when he played for us, and no, no saviour discussions.I wonder if Spurs fans had long circular discussions about whether this guy was the savior every offseason
He's still playing in China, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengke_Bateer
In the 2005 Chinese season, Bateer "averaged 25 points, 11 rebounds and 5 assists"!
Last edited by RuffnReadyOzStyle; 07-29-2014 at 11:32 PM.
I remember ST when he played for us, and no, no saviour discussions.
He's still playing in China, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengke_Bateer
In the 2005 Chinese season, Bateer "averaged 25 points, 11 rebounds and 5 assists"!
seems like the more you hear about it, the less likely it happens. Diaw was a recent exception. No news is good news at this point, I guess. But I'm still not sold on Marion with the Spurs just yet.
I think I might take Ayers...
As to your comment that he has positive aspects...no one's taking them away. Still doesn't take away the fact he isn't that good, or that someone else out there is better. As to PS actually publishing something like that....daring, yes, but a novel take isn't always right, nor should its novelty be taken as genius or smart. Maybe no one thought of pitching the idea because the idea isn't worth developing.
P.S. Not being paid doesn't mean we can't critique their content. One can only choose to refuse to read. We aren't exactly paying the Spurs too, yet we talk about them in detail.
That would be nowhere near golden. We've got a player on the team, Matt Bonner, who could probably do better than that, especially shooting a higher percentage from 3 point range than 35% if that is the number you're after. I'd even classify Bonner as a better defender. If Daye can't outplay Bonner, then he shouldn't even be on the team. What use does he have?
He's in this situation because he hasn't played to his talents or shown enough desire on any of the other teams he's been on. Everyone can see that he has talent, but it looks like he lacks something, just doesn't seem to be able to put it all together, and it might be mostly mental, which to me, doesn't seem like he wants it enough.
He was picked at the same draft position as Kawhi Leonard. He's got the talent to be much more than a 13th man. We know he can lead a summer league team in points, rebounds and assists without really trying, because we watched him do that. It's the "not really trying" part that's the killer. Asking if he's capable of playing up to his potential on an actual NBA team is not the same as asking him to put up 30 and 15.
Agreed about the PG play, but if he can shoot 35 percent from three point range and decently defend then he's going to be off the team before the trade deadline, just like Nando was. People are polarized because roster spots are at a premium, and the Spurs don't need anyone at Daye's age who isn't capable of working into the rotation. 35 percent and decent defense won't come close to cutting it.
The reason nobody gave a about Mengke Bateer contributing in 2003 is because they had the two time league MVP on their front line playing 40 minutes a night.
It has to be at least.....3 times bigger than this!
Sorry. Kinda just wanted to see if the gif would work.
I have no idea where any of the stuff in bold comes from. I said he was, arguably, the worst player on the team, and still the first one I cut or trade if we can get someone better, nor did I say their take was right (although some parts of it were, it was a lot of numbers that were hard to argue with) or genius (??) (I don't remember their conclusion, but I am pretty sure I didn't describe it as 'genius'). Nor did I say their content couldn't or shouldn't be critiqued? I even critiqued it myself. I questioned the LEVEL of the critique. The hate (and name-calling). It's all about the levels, Jerry. Pooch shoutout.
Their article did corroborate my view that the hate for Ayers, like their site, is overdone. He has better stats than the peanut gallery gives him credit for (myself included)...probably why Pop gives him so many minutes in comparison to a lot of other 13-15th men in the past. He's not doing everything wrong, although sometimes it appears so. He's got better stats in some areas than Splitter, and Splitter makes 9 million (Please, please, please, I beg don't read that and quote me back that I said that Ayers is better than Splitter). The mention of Bateer is also relevant. I was going to mention him, too. I don't remember anyone hating him, or wanting to gouge their eyes out at watching him play, slit their wrists, or his. A lot of it comes down to the fact that Ayres got overpaid by a few hundred thousand dollars a year, as league minimum is over a million dollars, maybe 1.2, for him? But, is that his fault? The Spurs overpaid him. I agree on that. We could have had something as good, cheaper. , we probably could have had HIM, cheaper. But, really meaningless in the grand scheme of things, and we use him to burn some minutes until we get something better. He actually played quite a few minutes, saving Timmy, and it didn't seem to hurt our record in the end, much. 62 wins and 1st overall. I am sure they are ALWAYS looking for something better. But, he's been much more useful than the Bateers of years past. I will even go out on a limb and say that the Joseph, Ayers, Daye, Baynes, Bonner 11-15 end of the bench is one of the more utilitarian ends of the bench we've had in a long time (I'll put Anderson at 10, as he's going to be here for at least two years, probably, while - the others may be on a revolving door), with a few players with some possible upside.
As an unfortunately rabid fan, I prefer to have lots of different sources. I prefer novel takes to rehashed ones. Even if the novel takes are wrong. I like to read opposing points of view, even if they're wrong, because sometimes I am.
And, regarding pay, well, many of us DO pay The Spurs. Some in more direct ways: ticket sales, gear, food and beverage sales, etc. Others in more indirect ways - TV ratings, etc. And, they all get paid handsomely, even the Daye's of the group make a million dollars.
Whoever runs Project Spurs probably makes 40k a year, and very little if any of it from that site. That site may even run negative. It seems more like a labor of love than financial gain. Several of the articles are poorly done, but I would rather have it than it go away. And, I try not to get all personal over it as ST is wont to do. I am not always successful, but I try.
Last things first. A very similar argument can be said about Daye/Anderson, and anyone else that is going to try to play at the SF position. They have the reigning FMVP at SF playing right in front of them, who will play the lion's share of the minutes, who is young, and in ascension. Yet, people harangue Daye like Kawhi doesn't exist. No one gave a about Bateer because Duncan existed, and people should give less of a about Daye because Kawhi does exist.
He'll likely play more than 30 minutes, 30-35 minutes, leaving 13-18 minutes for everyone else that plays at that position: Belli, Manu, Green, Daye, Anderson. Again, there isn't the glaring need at SF for people to be wringing their hands over, unless in case of injury, but if Duncan went down in your example, we were screwed, too.
Regarding decent defense and 35% from 3 not even being close to enough to keep him here past the trade deadline: Of course it's close. Everyone was salivating over Channing Frye who shoots .385 for his career. It's CLOSE. Maybe not quite good enough, but 41% was what he did shoot. The proof is in the pudding. If he shoots anywhere in between .35 and .41, he's right in Channing Frye territory, and the decent defense was already assumed. So, you've got a 6'11" guy that shoots Channing Frye numbers, passes the ball well, gets rebounds, deflections, and assists. Gets to the line, and he does that for less than Channing Frye would ask for, and he will ACTUALLY PLAY HERE. Channing Frye is a pipe dream, whereas Daye is actually attainable. Of course, these things have to manifest themselves. You, I, and Ben Stanfield assumed the defense was acceptable. And, we will have to see what he shoots over a season in our system.
Lastly, the "without even trying". I am on the fence on this one. I have mentioned that I do think he has maturity issues, but I don't see them manifesting as "not even trying" on the court. I see effort on the court. I don't like how he argues with the refs after stupid fouls. And, in summer league, I thought he could have done a little more to contest at the basket on help defense. I don't know if he was trying to cut down on the fouling, which is an issue for him, or he was "not trying". But, those are the only two effort things I see, and one is more maturity than "not trying" (the arguing about stupid fouls he was obviously guilty of, or arguing FOR a foul call instead of getting back on defense). The other doesn't bear out with the numbers, because even though he looked to be holding back on contesting at the rim a little, his shot blocking and altering shots in general was good, so I can't really hold too much against him there, either.
I do think that his lanky frame and the fact that he isn't the fastest guy on the court does work against him in creating a perception that he is not "hustling", maybe. I think it's easy to pick on him for that, a little. It draws attention to it more than it should.
Off the court, I think is where he is not trying as much. I think that he plays too many pickup games instead of working to become a professional. He got done with Drew League, and flew out to Rucker park from L.A. the next day to play more pick up games. I guess that's better than nothing, to stay in shape, but I wonder if he becomes a better PRO by spending more time with a shooting coach over the summer, for example, instead of flying around the country to hang out with rappers and take a bunch of selfies, and pictures of his shoes. I don't know if that is too harsh, or I'm too old, but if I were so close to being cut, maybe I choose my extra-curricular summer events differently. If he can't shoot and play defense, he is pretty useless to us, or anyone else. Is defense emphasized in Drew League? no. It's like the NBA all-star game. Rucker park? No. And, we've seen what wonders that working with a shooting coach over time can do. There is evidence of weight training, and personal trainer/basketball trainer (he trains with Kevin Durant this summer, same trainer, train together at times Daye and Durant, as they've got photos together from workouts).
I was talking about the article, not your opinion, since it had "positive tidbits". Comments on Ayres were comments on the article, so please go through it again. You didn't say they weren't supposed to be critiqued - explicitly. You however said "lazy writing. So what? I'm not exactly paying them". I don't pay but that doesn't preclude my right to call their writing out. You can appreciate the slant of the article, sure, it's contrarian, an exotic take, it still doesn't mean it's good. You know when you've read better.
As to Ayres, my issue is that he wasn't overpaid. Like most, I feel the roster spot could have been used keeping someone else.
Now we're just going into semantics. Not paying the a Spurs but indirectly paying them through direct and indirect ways? How about the transaction cost of going through the website? The revenues they make off ads? Following your logic some or many of us pay Project Spurs.
I'd be wary of someone who values novelty over rightness, even if the latter is rehashed. No problem as to opposing points of view, my problem is with substance. If you're going to play devil's advocate despite wrongness...I don't think we'd be in agreement here.
As of now we're just splitting hairs here. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Not the first time I got called out on a personal preference. Quoting you: "To each his own".
I will read it again. I don't remember any outlandish takes they had. I was in a hurry, and did skim parts. Haven't made it back. I thought a lot of the data was interesting, and made some good points. It was a LONG article, and someone put a lot of time into it. With anything that long, there are probably going to be parts that were good/right and bad/wrong. If I only read things I agree with, too, I fall victim to groupthink, etc. All sorts of ills. I wish that William F. Buckley, Christopher Hitchens, Kurt Vonnegut, or Samuel Clemens wrote that article "In Defense of Ayres". Or, maybe Stephen Hawking, or Wojnarowski. They didn't. I don't have much of an option there. Maybe I need your sources. Who are you reading on Spurs material that publishes frequently? There is always something better somewhere, we can agree on that. Thank goodness my boss isn't looking to replace me on a daily basis, because he can find better.
(1) It isn't so much as falling victim to groupthink as it is to defend a viewpoint which you couldn't defend yourself.
(2) if you're arguing based on frequency of articles published, you win, but the battleground was substance and quality. I didn't put them with other spurs sites, I said it was a personal preference of other writers and blogs. Not just the Ayres article, but their writing in general. When you see Zach Lowe come up with a profile or dissect plays with surgical precision, you'd actually enjoy reading articles. But I guess I'm just not as open-minded as you are, not like I nitpick on other people's arguments just for the sake of nitpicking and playing devil's advocate while wallowing in gray areas.
(3) Keeping a job =/= reading a blog. Could've used a better metaphor there amigo. But hey, if your boss can find better, I don't see why you shouldn't be let go once your contract is up. Just because the foreign employee adds diversity to the crew doesn't mean he shouldn't be axed if and when he messes up at work.
Maybe I could have defended Ayers better, but I have no intention, nor desire, to do that. When someone else does it, I'll entertain the idea. But, defending the Nando trade has been work enough.We disagree because we are talking about different things, which often happens. I am just talking about Spurs material. There's not a lot, so what I have, I appreciate, even if it's not as good as non-Spurs stuff, and even not as good as some other Spurs stuff.
Actually, regarding the keeping a job comment, I was specifically referring to us being the employers and Project Spurs being the employee. I was being a little tongue in cheek. I'm not sure what you meant by foreign employee being axed, but I was just making a point that there is ALWAYS something better. For the record, I hope Ayers is replaced with something better, Project Spurs keeps on chugging, and I don't get fired.
"...not like I nitpick on other people's arguments just for the sake of nitpicking and playing devil's advocate while wallowing in gray areas."
You'll have to elaborate lest I misconstrue.
Last edited by littlecoyotecoin; 07-30-2014 at 11:48 AM.
Excellent point. I'm sure Tim Duncan is at the practice facility right now. If Daye really wanted to stick with the Spurs that's where he'd be. End of story.
Melvin Ely was still in the league? I remember watching him play for Fresno State what seems like a lifetime ago.
He spent some time in the D-League before being signed by the Pelicans last year in April. He'll likely find his way back to the D-League now after being waived.
How the did Ely make it to DC? He went from NO to Cle to Cha to Was in less than three weeks? Talk about a road trip.
Can someone reTweet that to Austin Daye.
Damn. I'll be a little upset if Cleveland gets Marion for the league minimum (which is what it'd have to be if he went there IIRC). I'd love to have him in SA for that price.
Are the Spurs interested in signing anyone to improve the team? If Marion takes a minimum offer in Cleveland, then I have no idea what the Spurs are doing. They still need a backup SF. Maybe Chip is put off by his shot as much as I am?
How much money do the Cavs have left?
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