this was a funny joke Cali, props.
I saw DM live in the preseason and he looked pretty darned good then, but he's improved noticeably in just a few weeks. As much as I like Tony, he is going to have a hard time keeping the starting spot if and when he returns. Also, I think Pop is gonna favor DM for the foreseeable future over Mills because he needs to play Manu and Mills together and he likes DM's length on defense. Those two things alone keep DM the starter.
"I was always a fan of Parker, except for every season since I've joined." A likely story there.I've always loved Parker, just not in 2014 and on. I've said many time 2012/2013 MVParker was the engine. Every time he left the floor, the team got worse. He was the floor general. Parker was the number one defensive assignment for 2013, and maybe green gets a tougher game plan than previously for 2 games but not at the level that MVParker commanded. Not by a long shot.
solid thoughts.
the question for Pop is what happens to Patty when manu retire tbh? If tony can play he's probably a better backup if the bench will no longer be Manu's but that is a discussion for another time.
I've said this many times on ST. It's not a one time thing.
No worries, man. People feel threatened when their expectations aren't met and there's a lot of uncertainty with the guard position since Tony's injury. Props for your takes in this time of speculation and uncertainty. It is a lot easier for the peanut gallery to chime in and criticize someone like you who has a difference of opinion and challenges the status quo than to put themselves out there for critics. Plus that would require them to formulate their own opinions. That's just too much for some people. Props to you.Thanks brah.
The Peanut Gallery.
Can't speak for others, but personally, it's not that I want that; it's just the reality. Parker and Mills aren't going anywhere and will be in the rotation, so until Parker retires, the only path to a permanent rotation spot for Murray, is to defend SG's or wings.
If Murray keeps this up, no matter how Green plays, opposing coaches will start putting wings on him regardless. But that doesn't matter, that only affects the offensive part of the game, on defense (and the boards) we would still be deadly with Murray as the PG there.
Last edited by DAF86; 10-24-2017 at 06:19 PM.
You are focusing on only one side of the ball son.
#CharacterAssassinationWhy is it the low tier posters always hating on me?
The real posters know I'm legit.
Now that's some 'spec, brah.
Whom Murray guards is not dependent on the guy next to him. He can still guard PGs if he plays the two, I didn't "focus" on it, because that's just obvious. Green's done his fair share of guarding PGs despite only playing a handful of minutes there. And his rebounding success is a function of his matchup, so him being guarded by twos would limit his offensive boards, whereas him guarding ones would help it, even if he plays the two.
You can say "b-b-but net rating". Of course, though, that's a function of how well the guy playing next to Murray is performing too. As I've said, I have no issue with Murray being the PG. If Parker and Mills get back to form along with Murray cooling off (which should happen as a net rating of 30 is unsustainable), then playing your best 10 means Murray plays the two. No reason to play a guy like Brandon Paul over Patty just so Murray can be at the point.
If DJ keeps this offensive output, once Kawhi is back he’s gonna be a nightmare for other teams. Something (lite) similar to what teams had to deal w/ Westbrook and Durant.
But then you would have Mills and Tony guarding opposing Wings. Wasn't that obvious for you too?
Even if Tony or Mills guard non-offensive threats like the Robersons of this world, opposing teams would still punish them on switches and offensive boards. Of course Murray's defensive rating depends on the guys he plays with, that's why all the smart people here don't want him playing alongside Tony or Mills. It really isn't that hard to understand, tbh.
This has never been that big of a deal. No one is going to break up their offense to specifically iso up and down the floor, unless their PG sucks and their wings are much better. If that's the case, who cares how good Murray would be at checking the PG if that PG wasn't going to be the main offensive threat anyway?But then you would have Mills and Tony guarding opposing Wings. Wasn't that obvious for you too?
They'll "punish" everyone on switches. Generalists only have advantage is chaotic situations. In a stable situation, the specialists reign supreme.Even if Tony or Mills guard non-offensive threats like the Robersons of this world, opposing teams would still punish them on switches and offensive boards. Of course Murray's defensive rating depends on the guys he plays with, that's why all the smart people here don't want him playing alongside Tony or Mills. It really isn't that hard to understand, tbh.
The point about the rating is that it makes sense for Murray to be a PG when the wings are better than the other guards. But if that changes, then Murray shouldn't play at PG just because of his individual net rating. That's stupid and selfish. Of course his stats will look the best if he's put in the best situation, but the team should hope that the guards improve to the point to where playing a guy like Paul over Mills or Parker doesn't make sense. 2014 Patty/Murray is a better back court than Murray/Paul. 2017 playoffs Parker/Green/Leonard -- 2014 Patty/Murray/Ginobili is far and away the best perimeter rotation the team can ask for. Of course, that's not going to happen. The debate has never been about if Murray should be playing PG given the current performance of the roster. It's been about if Murray should play PG no matter what.
Why are you bringing all these hypothetical scenarios? The rotation wings are Kawhi, Green, Manu and Anderson or Gay. All better options than moving any of the three PG's out of position. So no, the Spurs will never be better playing all three of Murray, Tony and Mills rotation minutes. One of the three has to stand on the side. It would be idiotic to have Murray be the one to be left out, so that leaves Tony and Mills to fight for a rotation spot.
You listed five players for six positions. That leaves the final position open for one of the PGs. Whether the bench is Mills/Murray or Mills/Parker makes little difference.
Anyway, the reason for the "hypotheticals" is because the debate is about the philosophy of Murray playing the two in general, not the efficacy of him doing it right now. I've been extremely clear that I would like Murray to keep starting at the one provided he keeps playing well. I don't think he'll be as good, as his current performance is unsustainable, but that's whatever. He could easily remain the best option when all is said and done. But as the team looks to its future, the team will find itself in situations where Murray will be the bigger guard on the floor and the functional SG. It shouldn't be an issue.
You have folks saying White couldn't play next to Murray because they're both PGs, and that's ridiculous.
Even if Murray regressed to becoming more inconsistent, he'd still be better than Mills & TP -- who have a positive impact once every 3 or 4 games. Murrays time has come.
Until we see how Tony looks I won't assume he's better than anybody tbh. Tony is so brittle right now, gets injured frequently with nags here or there and tries to play through them, having awful games b4 Pop realizes he's not shooting with his feet balanced bc he has some sore body part and decides to sit him. He gets injured in the season every year. The miles show in his lack of durability. At this point he should be on a Manu schedule, playing bench minutes, sometimes with the better lineups if he's playing well, and getting his minutes restricted and his body preserved. I hope Pop in his everlasting love for Tony thinks about what is best for his body too, and he will bc Pop is so careful with his old players. The fact Murray is playing awesome and is truly deserving makes this honestly very easy, almost a non-issue.
So, I don't know why Chinook is arguing for Tony this strongly and you know I like you Chinook. Even Brazil was saying Tony could play some more few years like he wants to if he comes off the bench. Tony was a borderline starter quality last season, at big chunks of the season he was one of the worst starting PG in the league, certainly looking to place in the lower 3rd tier of them. What makes one think he will be better than that level coming off this injury a season older? I can't see it. He will have to show me tbh. That's just me obviously. Meanwhile Murray is already showing me game.
I think Murray will keep minutes and his spot, with maybe mixing in Tony when Pop feels like he wants to test Tony out, give him reps for chemistry, or Dijon is having a rough night shooting for example and Pop wants to get someone else in. He's going to mix players in, but Murray is going to continue to play all season IMO.
EXACTLY!!! Tony is too inconsistent to start and stunt Murray's growth... Besides Tony was horrible on defense, and will he worse... We simply aren't a better team with him starting...
And Murray should play PG exclusively... Tony couldn't shoot for damn near ten years, and played point guard exclusively... He still doesn't have a pure jumper and stiff loses confidence and is reluctant to shoot at times
I feel like you've read nothing I've said on this topic if you think I've been arguing for Tony.
I have read way too much from way too many guys, I'll admit so memory can be fuzzy, and this isn't a direct reply, but a general impression. I seem to remember you mentioning Tony is still better than Dijon elsewhere, which I didn't care to reply to bc offensively he's probably a better shooter, and is just more experienced. Dijon's efficiency is based on opportunistic forays into the paint playing with bigs that have to be guarded away from the basket and who draw attention, and him getting aggressive with offensive rebounding/tip ins, as well as transition scoring. Tony is going to be better with his midrange shot and probably with 3 pt shooting as well until Dijon shows me different. But, Dijon is efficient right now with what he's doing and it's helping the team win, so I really don't care for the moment to even discuss it. There may be times in the future that becomes relevant, and maybe Dijon has indeed improved as a shooter, or he hasn't, but until we see the state Tony is playing at that is just completely speculative.
I have seen you discuss a lot of other aspects on which I commented but at the center of this, at least for me, is really whether he should continue to start or not. Him playing with the bench will just happen naturally as every starter does play with the bench at times, LMA, Kawhi, Danny, and Pau have all mixed in with the bench in different lineups so him playing with Mills or Forbes or Manu or whomever is just going to happen naturally.
I think maybe one or two people at the most are saying Tony SHOULD start. A number of folks think he will because of politics or rotation. I think Murray will fall off, but if he doesn't I don't want Tony starting. People underrate what Tony's done and what he can do, though. That much is true. Even bad Parker runs an offense better than Murray does, and as Kawhi gets back and Pop tries to fit everything together, having a steady hand to implement the game plan is definitely welcome.
Anyway, my horse is not about if Murray is a better option than Tony starting. It's about whether Murray can play the two if that's what needed to get the best 10 on the floor. I think he can and should if the team can get the other guards going. Until/unless that happens, it's obviously moot. But there are folks who think Murray/White is a bad pairing physically because both should play PG exclusively. That's how absurd the "Murray's a PG only" movement has become.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
