IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[baseline bum]

I think Shaq's the best over their careers, but it's not by as big of a margin a some people here are trying to claim. Shaq had/still has some huge holes in his game that Duncan and Olajuwon never have. Shaq is lazy on defense, and he refuses to guard pick and rolls. I remember a game with Phoenix back in 2002 or 2003 where the Suns went to pick and rolls with Shaq's man for like the last 9 possessions of a game, with wide-open jumpshots every single time. It was pathetic seeing Fisher have to guard both guys every single time. For most of his career Shaq hasn't even been that good of an interior defender. When he was hungry in 2000 and then in the 2001 playoffs, he could control the paint on both ends of the floor.. but other times he looked disinterested.

He's always had a rep as a lazy player. For the years 96-99 his game looked like it had taken a step back. Even Shaq acknowledged that in an interview I saw in the 99 playoffs where he was talking about needing to get back to playing the way he did in 95. Anyone who watched Shaq in 95 knows he had a killer hook shot, which he just let slip away for good when he decided he was only going to be a dunker. He started to regain it late in his Lakers run, but never anything like it was in 95.

You can't poke holes like that in Duncan's game, much less Olajuwon's.

Offensively, it's not even close... O'Neal in a landslide. Overall, I think he's still the best of the 3, but the numbers don't tell O'Neal's worst side.

If O'Neal was born with Kobe Bryant's heart and work ethic he'd have been better than Jordan.

[flipcritic]

the two best arent on your list

the best individual player : wilt the stilt chamberlain,


50 POINTS and 25 REBOUNDS PER GAME AVERAGE ONE YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't comment on Russell because I've never really seen enough footage of him to make an evaluation. And you can't discount that he has more championship rings than fingers (winning them with and without Cousy, Sharman, Havlicek, and other Celtic notables).

But one thing I will say about Wilt is that although people love to tout his scoring record of 100 points, his REAL unbreakable record will be his single game record of 55 rebounds in a game.

Whenever I think about that number (a number teams don't even make anymore), the more I wonder how many chuckers there were back then.

Still, to get that amount of many rebounds against players who were familiar with how you and your team played (significantly less number of teams and relatively a few less number of games) is mind-boggling.

And who is next to Wilt for that record? Bill Russell with 51 rebounds.

Those guys were the monsters of their time.

[whottt]

Rodman isn't the one who got killed everynight by Hakeem, which by far and away is the #1 reason the Spurs lost that series. When you let the other team's best player drop 35-40 a night and shoot in the high 50's % wise, you are going to lose 99 times out of 100.

You mean like la



Why does Rodman have 5 rings if he was such a cancer? He was a HUGE part of both the Pistons and Bulls le runs. One of the best rebounders in NBA history and an excellent defender.

Rodman defending guys like Horry on the perimeter is an unrealistic expectation. That would be like chastising Parker for not defending Nowitzki well. When you have the best rebounder in the game you want a guy like that playing down low so he can use his best assets. From that perspective, the Spurs just matched up very poorly with Houston. DRob was no answer for Hakeem and who was there for Rodman to cover. It was probably better to just put Rodman on Hakeem in retrospect.

Blaming that series on him though is crazy when it's DRob who was just lit up like a Christmas tree from the tip of Game 1 to the final buzzer of Game 6.[/QUOTE]



Hakeem didn't outscore David as much as Amare outscored Duncan last year...and we won the series 5-1.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

the two best arent on your list

the best individual player : wilt the stilt chamberlain,


50 POINTS and 25 REBOUNDS PER GAME AVERAGE ONE YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





most successful big man ever: bill russell,


13 CHAMPIONSHIPS, WITH 9 OF THEM IN A ROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



how do you say that? repeat, three peat, and so on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

ALL THE WAY TO FRIGGIN NINE!!!!!!!!!!

If a prime David Robinson played in a league with 6-6 unathletic white guys, he would average 75 and 30 for an entire season

[whottt]

Rodman isn't the one who got killed everynight by Hakeem, which by far and away is the #1 reason the Spurs lost that series. When you let the other team's best player drop 35-40 a night and shoot in the high 50's % wise, you are going to lose 99 times out of 100.

You mean like last year when Amare dropped 37 ppg on us with an MVP point guard on his team, and got bounced out of the playoffs in 5 games?

Why does Rodman have 5 rings if he was such a cancer? He was a HUGE part of both the Pistons and Bulls le runs. One of the best rebounders in NBA history and an excellent defender.

Either you didn't watch that series...or you weren't paying attention.

#1. Rodman didn't even play every game in the series.

#2. He was traded away the very next season.

Rodman defending guys like Horry on the perimeter is an unrealistic expectation. That would be like chastising Parker for not defending Nowitzki well. When you have the best rebounder in the game you want a guy like that playing down low so he can use his best assets. From that perspective, the Spurs just matched up very poorly with Houston. DRob was no answer for Hakeem and who was there for Rodman to cover. It was probably better to just put Rodman on Hakeem in retrospect.

Blaming that series on him though is crazy when it's DRob who was just lit up like a Christmas tree from the tip of Game 1 to the final buzzer of Game 6.

It sure would have been better to put Rodman on Hakeem...the Bulls used him on Shaq extensively the very next year.


How often have you seen Shaq asked to guard Duncan or vice versa?

How often do you see Duncan asked to guard Dirk, or Dirk to guard Duncan?


The Spurs stuck Drob out there and basically expected him to win th series by himself...

People may want to say that the Rockets were that stupid, but they weren't, they protected Hakeem, ...only the Spurs were, which is why it took Bob Hill, the rookie head coach that year, 10 years to get another NBA job after the Spurs fired him.


And interesting paradox of that series...David Robinson averaged about 16 FTA per game in that series...

That's basically 8 shooting foulsper game...

[SPARKY]

DRob had some pretty ty supporting casts to play with during 1989-96. It wasn't surprising to see some of those mid-90s teams rack up a bunch of regular season wins and then get stymied in the postseason.

I will say that people tend to forget what an absolute freak of nature DRob was before his back injury.

[whottt]

Be sure to judge Shaq by that same series...Hakeem put over 30ppg on Shaq too...only Shaq's team, with it's all NBA 1 st team guard and All Star All NBA D 3 time champion PF, got swept.

Shaq was not better David Robinson, Dave beat him like a redheaded step child on father's day every time they were matched up. And did it often against Hakeem too.

Shaq, Hakeem and Drob all played C for the 96 Olympic team...Shaq was the returning starter from the 94 World Championship Team, Drob started, Drob got the most minutes.


Drob was an A list C who played for a minor league organization..and it's just that simple.

[TDfan2007]

1. Shaq - absolutely dominant with the complete big man game. His finals performances were spectacular.

2. TD/Hakeem - both utilize skill over raw power. Both are versatile. Both were at their best when it mattered most (in the clutch and in the playoffs/finals). Hakeem's numbers are better but that's because he was undouble-teamable because of all of the immense talent he had around him (Clyde, Cassel, and even Kenny Smith set a finals 3-point record). Tim is doubled on a constant basis and is extremely unselfish hence the not-so-high scoring average.

3. Ewing - he's better than KG, not these guys though.

4. KG - his numbers are great, but his horrendous clutch performances and lack of playoff success leave much to be desired.

[MadDog73]

1. Shaq - absolutely dominant with the complete big man game. His finals performances were spectacular.

2. TD/Hakeem - both utilize skill over raw power. Both are versatile. Both were at their best when it mattered most (in the clutch and in the playoffs/finals). Hakeem's numbers are better but that's because he was undouble-teamable because of all of the immense talent he had around him (Clyde, Cassel, and even Kenny Smith set a finals 3-point record). Tim is doubled on a constant basis and is extremely unselfish hence the not-so-high scoring average.

3. Ewing - he's better than KG, not these guys though.

4. KG - his numbers are great, but his horrendous clutch performances and lack of playoff success leave much to be desired.

Where's David? 3rd?

Here's my list:

1. Tim Duncan - the best big man currently in the Game. Period. He's Prime now, unlike Shaq who is on the decline, and already has 3 Championships.

2. Shaq (3 Championships, multiple Final appearences and an incredible career PPG avg count for something). If he wins another Ring this year, I'll have to put him over Duncan for now...

3. Hakeem (2 Championships, dominated Shaq and David in 1995, Hakeem's prime.)

4. David Robinson. He's fourth, but it's closer than it looks. 2 Championships, ton of achievements, a great team player, a great athlete and, if he had better team mates during his prime, he would have more les. But, we're not writing "who would be the best big man", we're writing "Who was in their Prime." And Championships count. Sorry, Whottt, although I totally agree he would get much better recognition if he played for the Lakers.


All these players could beat each other on any given night. They are all incredible athletes, and just to be on this list is an awesome achievement.

Which is why you won't find Ewing or KG on my list.

[DirkAB]

Be sure to judge Shaq by that same series...Hakeem put over 30ppg on Shaq too...only Shaq's team, with it's all NBA 1 st team guard and All Star All NBA D 3 time champion PF, got swept.

Shaq was not better David Robinson, Dave beat him like a redheaded step child on father's day every time they were matched up. And did it often against Hakeem too.

Shaq, Hakeem and Drob all played C for the 96 Olympic team...Shaq was the returning starter from the 94 World Championship Team, Drob started, Drob got the most minutes.


Drob was an A list C who played for a minor league organization..and it's just that simple.

You won't even acknowledge th fact that Shaq wasn't in his prime yet, but Hakeem and Robinson were. You are basing it all on head to head matchups that happened in a relatively short span of time, when in fact only 2 of the 3 guys were in their prime during that time period. Are you forgetting the premise of the thread? Or are you purposely trying to ignore facts?

[DirkAB]

Where's David? 3rd?

Here's my list:

1. Tim Duncan - the best big man currently in the Game. Period. He's Prime now, unlike Shaq who is on the decline, and already has 3 Championships.

2. Shaq (3 Championships, multiple Final appearences and an incredible career PPG avg count for something). If he wins another Ring this year, I'll have to put him over Duncan for now...

3. Hakeem (2 Championships, dominated Shaq and David in 1995, Hakeem's prime.)

4. David Robinson. He's fourth, but it's closer than it looks. 2 Championships, ton of achievements, a great team player, a great athlete and, if he had better team mates during his prime, he would have more les. But, we're not writing "who would be the best big man", we're writing "Who was in their Prime." And Championships count. Sorry, Whottt, although I totally agree he would get much better recognition if he played for the Lakers.


All these players could beat each other on any given night. They are all incredible athletes, and just to be on this list is an awesome achievement.

Which is why you won't find Ewing or KG on my list.

After all that arguing with me you put Robinson 4th!!!!! WFT???? Did you not believe what you were preaching? Were you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or were you convinced otherwise?

[MadDog73]

After all that arguing with me you put Robinson 4th!!!!! WFT???? Did you not believe what you were preaching? Were you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or were you convinced otherwise?

o? You should have read my original post (I think it's still there on page 3 or 4, maybe page 2). I had Shaq on top. Whottt convinced me I was wrong, and I was actually debating with myself as I was debating you.

But, uh, no, you did not convince me Shaq was better. If anything, you convinced me Tim was better than Shaq.

As I said, I think it's very, very close, but I'm using Rings as the ultimate sign of greatness, so that's how Shaq edges out David and Hakeem, even though they are closer than you admit.

[SPARKY]

I think the thing that really knocks DRob down was his underdeveloped post game. Hakeem was as close to the prototype for a center as you will find. Hakeem was the complete package. Shaq? Not that great defensively. TD? Ditto. DRob? Had the D, but his O wasn't all it should have been.

[DirkAB]

Robinson in his prime owned Shaq in his prime.

Wasn't until Shaq got Kobe and Robinson got back trouble, that the Spurs had problems with them...

even then, 2003 was a great ing year.

Man, I really screwed up earlier saying that Shaq > Tim in Shaq's prime... I honestly don't believe that. Tim > Shaq, always and forever.

Flip flopper, make up your mind. So you weren't really debating me so much as you were debating yourself? Wow, I'm speechless.

[MadDog73]

Flip flopper, make up your mind. So you weren't really debating me so much as you were debating yourself? Wow, I'm speechless.

If you were really speechless, you wouldn't say anything.

Come on, BAkriD, you were saying some pretty stupid . I had to call you on it. I'm surprised you're not arguing with me that Shaq > Tim...

And I honestly hate putting David down at 4th. And I totally respect those who think otherwise, those who use other criteria to decide that, at his prime, David > Shaq. I'm using a very basic, easy yardstick: Championships won. But that doesn't take into account teams, individual match-ups, points, etc. In other words, it's not the perfect way to decide who's the best, but it's the easiest.

I was going to repost my original post, but it's too damn embarassing. I was arguing Dirk belonged on the list over KG and Ewing, and Dirk hasn't done yet...

Crap, I am a flip-flopper!

[Supergirl]

I might be convinced about Hakeem being #1, with Duncan #2 and Shaq #3, but if he is, why did he only win one championship (1995)? Shouldn't the best big man of the last 20 years be able to win more than one championship? I mean, even undersized Ben Wallace was able to win once.

And I don't exactly understand why Hakeem didn't win more, because I saw him play. He was amazingly talented.

[SPARKY]

Yes, why did Hakeem win only one championship?

[MadDog73]

Snarkiness aside, Hakeem had 2 Championships, 2 Finals MVPs, and 3 Finals appearences.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

What do you guys think of this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakeem_Olajuwon

Olajuwon's Rockets finally won the NBA championship in 1994, in an epic seven-game series against the New York Knicks, the team of one his perennial archenemies, Patrick Ewing. After five games, the Knicks had taken a 3-2 lead, when the Rockets defended a 86-84 lead in the final seconds of the game. In the last second, hot-shooting Knicks guard John Starks (who had scored 27 points until then) went up for a Finals-winning three, but Olajuwon pulled off one of the greatest clutch defensive plays of all time and blocked the shot. In Game 7, Olajuwon posted a game-high 25 points and 10 rebounds, which helped overpower the Knicks, bringing the first pro sports championships to Houston since the Houston Oilers won the AFL championship in 1961.

Hakeem was at the pinnacle of his career. In that year, he became the only player in NBA history to win MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season. Olajuwon's fame was well-deserved, as the Rockets team was probably one of the most lightly-loaded championship teams of all time. Neither of all the other starters Robert Horry, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith nor Sixth Man Sam Cassell were considered stars, do ented by the fact that Hakeem was the only Rockets All-Star player that year.

The Rockets won the le again in 1995, again by stellar play of Olajuwon. Most notoriously, in 1995, when the Rockets faced the San Antonio Spurs in the series, MVP-to-be Robinson was outscored by Olajuwon, 35-24. Even his trusty lieutenant Rodman, a strong defender and one of the leading rebounders of his time, could not help him. Robinson told Life Magazine: "Hakeem? You don't solve Hakeem." The Rockets won every road game that series. In the NBA Finals, the Rockets swept the Orlando Magic, led by a young Shaquille O'Neal. The whole basketball world had waited for the matchup of the two great centers, and it was Olajuwon who outscored O'Neal 33-28 PPG, raising his own regular-season PPG rate by a full 5 points whereas O'Neal's production dropped by one as Olajuwon was again named Finals MVP. As a side note, Hakeem was again the only All-Star Rockets player.

Ignore the crap about "trusty Lt. Rodman", and focus on the fact that Hakeem was the only All-Star for both Rocket Championships...

Hakeem could be considered better than Shaq or Tim from that angle.

Side note, I almost feel sorry for Ewing. Both times he makes it to the finals, he gets beat by the best big men at the time.

[bobbyjoe]

Yes, why did Hakeem win only one championship?

He won 2 and made the Finals a third time to face the 86 Celtics, considered by many as the best team in NBA history.

Is Tim better than Wilt because he has more les? You can't use # of rings, which is largely a team accomplishment as a be all and end all, when comparing players.

For instance, Hakeem knocking off the Showtime Lakers 4-1 in 1986 largely due to the way he was dominating an admittedly older Kareem is arguably more impressive than anything any player on this whole list ever did, even though he didnt earn a ring for it.

Do you honestly think Duncan wins le #1 against the 86 Celtics instead of the 8th seeded Knicks?

Similarly with O'Neal, I dont think you can look purely at the fact he gets his 4th ring this year, hes just that like automatically #1. He's played with some great players in Kobe, Wade, and Penny for a time. That's one factor, but not everything...

[MadDog73]

Then how do we decide who is best?

Avg Points per game? Some kind of amalgamation of points, rebounds, assists, blocked shots, etc?

I conceded Rings is not a prefect system, but until someone else puts out another way to measure "the best", it's the one I personally prefer.

Of course, as always, I'm open to debate.

[MadDog73]

Here's a chart of the career bests for each in the major categories, the highest total for each category will be bolded.

                        PTS     FG%    RB      A     BS     S     FTA
Shaquille O'Neal        29.7    601    13.9   3.8   3.5    0.9   13.1

David Robinson          29.8    551    13.0   4.8   4.5    2.3   11.6

Patrick Ewing           28.6    567    12.1   3.0   4.0    1.4    7.9

Tim Duncan              25.5    549    12.9   3.9   2.9    0.9    8.5

Hakeem Olajawon         27.8    538    14.0   3.6   4.6    2.6    8.0

Kevin Garnett           24.2    526    13.9   6.0   2.2    1.7    6.1

Here's where they ranked against each other in each of those categories and combined using a lower is better scoring system:

                    Pts   FG%   RB   A   BS  S   FTA      Score
David Robinson       1     3     3   2   2   2    2     =  15

Shaquille O'Neal     2     1     2   4   4   5    1     =  19

Hakeem Olajawon      4     5     1   5   1   1    4     =  21

Patrick Ewing        3     2     5   6   3   4    5     =  28

Tim Duncan           5     4     4   3   5   5    3     =  29

Kevin Garnette       6     6     2   1   6   3    6     =  30

LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any cir stances...


What does it all mean? Well no more than the IBM awards already told us...just that when you judge peak performance in terms of seasonal bests Drob grades out as...well, the best all around C of his era and one of the best in history.

Ironic that he'd the be last guy on that list anyone would rank #1, becauyse of media ignorance...well ok, maybe Ewing.

And BTW...it's seriously annoying that Ewing even gets put on these lists...he doesn't belong on them.


We could do another ranking...we could rank them by number of all star guards they played with...subtracting points for each. I wonder where Drob would finish on that one relative to the other C's...in NBA history. I know where Shaq would finish if we used that system on this list....it's easy to do with Shaq..just count the number of finals he has played in...on each he had at least one AS guard. How many rings did he win without one? No doubt who'd be dead last using that system...Bill Russell and the 2.6 billion AS's he played with.

Here's whottt's system. I don't like it, cause it make Duncan look equal to KG, and I'm not buying that!

[whottt]

My ranking system wasn't intended to be the be all end all statistical ranking system...

By the way, the NBA trophy that was supposed to be a scientiffic evaluation of the player that did the most to help his team win...

Drob is the record holder for winning that trophy, 5 times his first 7 years in the league.


Any statistical evaluation is going to put Drob at the top, and there's no doubt that of all these guys we are discussing, Drob had the greatest single season statistically...93-94.

[whottt]

You won't even acknowledge th fact that Shaq wasn't in his prime yet, but Hakeem and Robinson were. You are basing it all on head to head matchups that happened in a relatively short span of time, when in fact only 2 of the 3 guys were in their prime during that time period. Are you forgetting the premise of the thread? Or are you purposely trying to ignore facts?

Damn...you aren't even that familiar with Shaq are you?


His career highs in blocks, rebounds, and just about everything came as a rookie or his second year in the league.

Shaq's only skill is to offensive foul his way to the basket and slam dunk the ball...his skills have been on the decline since his rookie year.


Drob got two les going through Shaq in the twilight of his career...and don't give me this DRob had Duncan ...Shaq had Kobe, and Phil Jackson, and Robert Horry. And Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.

Hakeem had Pippen, and Barkley, and Drexler...

Hakeem had Ralph Sampson healthy, and didn't win a le.

[whottt]

Why don't you guys judge them by their failures?

Like worst finish team record wise?

Which ones didn't get their teams to the playoffs in years in which they were healthy?

How many times did their team not have a winning record?

[whottt]

For instance, Hakeem knocking off the Showtime Lakers 4-1 in 1986 largely due to the way he was dominating an admittedly older Kareem is arguably more impressive than anything any player on this whole list ever did, even though he didnt earn a ring for it. ...

Let's not forget that Hakeem wasn't even on the court and Ralph Sampson hit the shot that put them in the finals...

Don't discount freaking Ralph Sampson, because he was still in the class of the guys we are talking about right now back then.

Don't act like Hakeem did all this by himself.