Do people honestly think that Manu is the MVP of this team?

[Athenea]

This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure.

Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick.

Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big.

It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size.


If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him. You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. TimVP never gives Ginobili credit for denying guys the ball on defense. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball.

And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.


Also, your opinion that the Spurs would make the playoffs with an average shooting guard and possibly have a better record than they do with Manu is idiotic. If they have an average guard instead of Manu, they'd be worse than the Blazers and quite possibly the Kings right now.

Your solution is that not having Manu would make everyone on the team less lazy and more motivated. Brilliant. More motivated doesn't equal more talented. The Spurs have slumped this year largely because their role players aren't as good as in years past and the conference is deeper. In past years they could win games handily with just two of the big three playing and the third guy out. This year they need them all. If you noticed the winning streak we have now, it's because the big three are healthy and playing well for the first time since November.

Parker missed a bunch of games this year. What do you think would've happened to the team if it was just Tim and nobody? 10 game losing streak, that's what. The team needed Manu to pull out many many games for them. You think without Ginobili that the other guys will just what... concentrate more? All of a sudden Finley will shoot 50% for the whole year and average 20ppg? Barry won't get hurt? Oberto will be a 10 and 10 guy? Come on.

This might be one of the dumbest opinions you've ever had. The team is +387 with him and a -35 with him off the court, according to 82games.com. With Duncan it's 390 and -38, in like 200 more minutes. There's practically no difference between the two. According to your theory we could replace Tim with an average center and the other guys "could just try harder."

Gimme a break. I can't believe spurstalk doesn't ever call you out on crazy you throw out like this. Nobody in the supposed CoM would ever be arrogant or stupid enough to suggest that the team could make the playoffs without Timmy. They're literally 1 and 1A.

Ditto to everything in your post.

[sassystriker]

QUOTE=roycrikside]This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure.

Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick.

Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big.

It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size.


If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him. You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball.

And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.
[QUOTE]

Good for you to post that! Kudos to you.

And I flat out agree. Good defenders, let alone the great ones, would never allow their guy to score much. To say that Tony guards the second best offensive perimeter player is just nuts. The guys that he guards often toast us with their scoring. They're the ones who pile tons of points for their teams. Look there, Rip was like shooting at every angle in that game. And without sweat. Pop even had Manu, who was doing great at shutting Billups down, switch in guarding Rip. But the guy was already on the roll. So that’s just that. Tony doesn't even make them work for a single shot like when he guarded CP who scored plenty of open shots. Yeah, CP was like unguardable; bar he could have at least made it just a tiny bit harder to take those shots. Tony is quick alright but that's just speed and never really guarding.

As for Manu's D skills, he's getting much better. He's doing a decent job of making his guy work. He gets to their face, chases them down and is just basically annoying that his guys often get the tech.

[MoSpur]

This season, Manu and Tim are just as important. If Manu were to miss significant time because of injury the Spurs would have a hard time getting into the playoffs much less winning a series. Same goes with Tim.

[DAF86]

Manu don't wanted to play defense at that time until Ettore Messina change his mind. He learn defense because of him.

do you speak spanish? did you hear what manu said in the interview? the guy that changed manu's mentality towards defense was "el zeta rodriguez" when ginobili wasn't even a pro yet.

[DAF86]

I'm a huge Manu fan, but as a one on one defender when both players are at their best Tony is better. As a matter of fact, I think Tony is one of the most underrated defenders in the league. The problem with Tony and Manu is that they expend way too much energy on the offensive end to give Bruce Bowen type of effort on defense every minute of the game. However, in crunch time Tony can be a lock down defender. Manu, when defense is his main priority, can be pretty good one on one and insanely good making key plays like drawing charges and stealing the ball.

As far as 1 and 1A, no freakin way. Tim is 1 all by himself. Tim averages 20 pts in his sleep while Manu needs a career year. Tim also is a top flight rebounder, shot blocker, assist man, clutch performer, etc...

I love Manu, but he's not Tim Duncan and that's entirely ok.

Manu may go down as my favorite Spur of all-time because of his heart. In that area I rate Manu #1.

don't get me wrong i'm not saying manu's a better defender than duncan i'm just saying that manu's a very good defender 'cause someone said that he isn't and i couldn't bealive it. see Kori this is why i wanted a different thread to discuss this.
by the way i don't agree with "the parker D is better than manu D" part.

[Cherry]

do you speak spanish? did you hear what manu said in the interview? the guy that changed manu's mentality towards defense was "el zeta rodriguez" when ginobili wasn't even a pro yet.

una cosa es aprender defensa y la otra es no querer jugarla

Ok. Ask Manu

[rob5]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.

you're an idiot

[v2freak]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.

I like this idea a lot. Bowen doesn't get his due credit. Yesterday showed how important he was as he put the lockdown on McGrady.

[DAF86]

una cosa es aprender defensa y la otra es no querer jugarla

Ok. Ask Manu

viste esa entrevista? te acordas que el gallego perez y manu se reian de que cuando era pendejo le decian que no defendia a nadie y que despues termino siendo un gran defensor? si sos argentino/a no podes decir que manu es un mal defensor.

[ancestron]

very surprised this thread has not been closed.

[DAF86]

very surprised this thread has not been closed.

Why?

[timvp]

This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure.

Again, if there is a perimeter player who isn't too heavy and likes to utilize screens, Parker is the next in line behind Bowen. Pop has said in the past that Parker is the best player on the team in keeping up with his man going around screens.

Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick.

Chauncey too thick? Parker guarded him almost the entire 2005 Finals. Considering Chauncey was in his prime and the reigning Finals MVP, I'd say he did a damn good job.

Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big.

Parker has guarded Davis more than everyone else on the Spurs combined since he's come into the league. Do you watch the game?

It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size.

If you want to say it's a speed thing, then fine. But a height issue? Bowen is taller than Manu and he guards everyone. If Manu were the Argentine Bowen like some in this thread claim he is, he could hypothetically guard whoever.

If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him.

I've noted countless times when Parker doesn't bring energy defensively. But at his best (like last year in the playoffs), he can be a borderline lockdown defender. Everyone he guarded last year in the playoffs saw their stats plummet.

But yeah, I'm sure that's a fluke. God forbid someone say the word "Parker" in the same sentence as "Ginobili".

You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. TimVP never gives Ginobili credit for denying guys the ball on defense. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball.

I give Manu credit all the time. But honestly, he usually has the easiest defensive matchups on the team on a nightly basis. If you want to argue this point, start naming some players he has shut down at any point this season.

The truth is he usually switches from player to player so that Pop can keep him on the weakest offensive player on the court. By doing that, Manu's great team defensive skills come into play.

And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.

If Bowen isn't on the court, that usually means the other team's best perimeter offensive player isn't on the court. When Manu is playing with the bench, he's *gasp* usually going up against other bench players.

If you want to point to examples of Ginobili guarding superstars effectively while Bowen and Parker were on the bench, I'm all ears.

Also, your opinion that the Spurs would make the playoffs with an average shooting guard and possibly have a better record than they do with Manu is idiotic. If they have an average guard instead of Manu, they'd be worse than the Blazers and quite possibly the Kings right now.

Your solution is that not having Manu would make everyone on the team less lazy and more motivated. Brilliant. More motivated doesn't equal more talented. The Spurs have slumped this year largely because their role players aren't as good as in years past and the conference is deeper. In past years they could win games handily with just two of the big three playing and the third guy out. This year they need them all. If you noticed the winning streak we have now, it's because the big three are healthy and playing well for the first time since November.

Parker missed a bunch of games this year. What do you think would've happened to the team if it was just Tim and nobody? 10 game losing streak, that's what. The team needed Manu to pull out many many games for them. You think without Ginobili that the other guys will just what... concentrate more? All of a sudden Finley will shoot 50% for the whole year and average 20ppg? Barry won't get hurt? Oberto will be a 10 and 10 guy? Come on.

This might be one of the dumbest opinions you've ever had. The team is +387 with him and a -35 with him off the court, according to 82games.com. With Duncan it's 390 and -38, in like 200 more minutes. There's practically no difference between the two. According to your theory we could replace Tim with an average center and the other guys "could just try harder."

Gimme a break. I can't believe spurstalk doesn't ever call you out on crazy you throw out like this. Nobody in the supposed CoM would ever be arrogant or stupid enough to suggest that the team could make the playoffs without Timmy. They're literally 1 and 1A.

I don't know if your reading is failing you or your reading comprehension is failing you, but you need to go back and read what I said again ... and this time think it over.

Again, if the Spurs were coming into the season with no championships to their name and Manu replaced with an average shooting guard (say Corey Maggette), the team would still make the playoffs. The supporting cast around Duncan would still be better than the cast he had in 2001 or 2002. , that cast is better than anything Robinson had from about 1992 through the time Duncan was drafted. To say the Spurs couldn't make the playoffs without Manu is ludicrous seeing how Duncan and Robinson have taken far worse casts to the playoffs.

The Spurs would have to play all season like every game were a playoff game and they'd be able to make it into the playoffs. Of course they'd get their azz handed to them in the playoffs, that's not in question. But it really shouldn't be too much of a criticism of Ginobili that the Spurs can do well without him. The Bulls almost made it to the Finals without Jordan.

And yes, the Spurs would be worse without Manu than the Bulls were without Jordan. In that sense, you can say that Manu > Jordan.

*Hopefully he just skims to the last line and uses his reading comprehension skills*

[DAF86]

Again, if there is a perimeter player who isn't too heavy and likes to utilize screens, Parker is the next in line behind Bowen. Pop has said in the past that Parker is the best player on the team in keeping up with his man going around screens.

Ginobili never guards players who likes to utilize screens because pop thinks that Manu's endurance is poor and likes to rest him in the defensive end more than anyone else.

If you want to say it's a speed thing, then fine. But a height issue? Bowen is taller than Manu and he guards everyone. If Manu were the Argentine Bowen like some in this thread claim he is, he could hypothetically guard whoever.

nobody said that.

If you want to point to examples of Ginobili guarding superstars effectively while Bowen and Parker were on the bench, I'm all ears.

he guarded James a lot of times in the finals and he did pretty well. there's even a stat that showed that manu was the most efficient guarding james in that series.(but that's a very unfair stat 'cause Manu didn't guarded james as much as bowen did but it shows you that he isn't as bad as you think

if the Spurs were coming into the season with no championships to their name and Manu replaced with an average shooting guard (say Corey Maggette), the team would still make the playoffs. The supporting cast around Duncan would still be better than the cast he had in 2001 or 2002. , that cast is better than anything Robinson had from about 1992 through the time Duncan was drafted. To say the Spurs couldn't make the playoffs without Manu is ludicrous seeing how Duncan and Robinson have taken far worse casts to the playoffs.

You can't compare this season west with any other. this year a 50w team will miss the playoffs.

[roycrikside]

The west this year is too strong, I just can't buy your argument. Check the wagesofwins formulas. Manu's been worth like what 10, 12 wins already by himself? Plus it's really not very realistic to expect a team of 35 year olds to play every regular season game in a grueling 82 game season like their hair is on fire. Their bodies just cannot handle it. With the Spurs the issue isn't motivation as much as it's just pacing. They have to pace themselves to get to April and May and hopefully June.

Really your whole hypothetical argument just doesn't make much sense. You can't just up and pretend the roster has no les and lots of motivation to play super hard. No NBA roster would be built like this unless they specifically did have championship experience and lots of experience playing together. Pop's whole excuse for bringing the whole team back this year was that they deserve a chance to repeat together. If they didn't win in '07, than Horry, Bowen, Barry, Fin, Vaughn etc. would all be gone already.

I think you are not giving enough credit to the teammates that both Tim and Manu had around them from 1989-2002. Not always championship caliber teams, sure, but plenty of talented players and contending squads. Elliott was a fine player in his prime and so was mings. Strickland had a good run for a while and so did Avery. And at least in half those years the East was the superior conference to the West, so the compe ion wasn't as hard.

As for the Duncan era, don't let your memories of the '03 Robinson cloud the total package. For most of the time he played with Timmy, David was still a good player, an asset, and definitely superior to the cast of jokers, castoffs, misfits and ne'erdowells we've had at center since.

And also, please remember that the '08 Duncan is not in his prime. He can't carry a club like he used to.

[Galileo]

The west this year is too strong, I just can't buy your argument. Check the wagesofwins formulas. Manu's been worth like what 10, 12 wins already by himself? Plus it's really not very realistic to expect a team of 35 year olds to play every regular season game in a grueling 82 game season like their hair is on fire. Their bodies just cannot handle it. With the Spurs the issue isn't motivation as much as it's just pacing. They have to pace themselves to get to April and May and hopefully June.

Really your whole hypothetical argument just doesn't make much sense. You can't just up and pretend the roster has no les and lots of motivation to play super hard. No NBA roster would be built like this unless they specifically did have championship experience and lots of experience playing together. Pop's whole excuse for bringing the whole team back this year was that they deserve a chance to repeat together. If they didn't win in '07, than Horry, Bowen, Barry, Fin, Vaughn etc. would all be gone already.

I think you are not giving enough credit to the teammates that both Tim and Manu had around them from 1989-2002. Not always championship caliber teams, sure, but plenty of talented players and contending squads. Elliott was a fine player in his prime and so was mings. Strickland had a good run for a while and so did Avery. And at least in half those years the East was the superior conference to the West, so the compe ion wasn't as hard.

As for the Duncan era, don't let your memories of the '03 Robinson cloud the total package. For most of the time he played with Timmy, David was still a good player, an asset, and definitely superior to the cast of jokers, castoffs, misfits and ne'erdowells we've had at center since.

And also, please remember that the '08 Duncan is not in his prime. He can't carry a club like he used to.

By stats, Duncan is just as good as he's ever been this year, adjusted on a per minute basis.

He carried the Spurs last year in the pivitol series that decided the NBA championship, versus the Suns:

26.3 points per game

13.7 rebounds per game

4.2 blocks per game

Duncan is perfectly capable of "carrying" the Spurs, but only does so when nescessary.

With Duncan running around, moving without the ball, setting picks and screens, and nabbing offensive rebounds, he is just as good on offense, if not better, than ever. An he is even making his free throws this season.

Duncan is only 31, healthy and still in his prime. People who are fixated on scoring average do not see this.

[spursjustice]

The Spurs are a true definition of a team. Everyone is vital to the team's success. Take out any of our big 3 + Bruce and we falter. Hence we don't just have one MVP. However, if you ask me who has been more valuable to the team between Tim and Manu, my answer is both of them. But if I could only choose one of these players (Tim or Manu) to lead the rest of the Spurs into the playoffs this year, I'd take Tim everyday, because he's the foundation; you'd be silly to pick anyone else.

[TMTTRIO]

Even Manu says that Tim's the man on this team.

[oboymeetsogirl]

Duncan is the glue. Without him, everything falls apart. It's apparent in *every* game -- when Duncan is on the bench, the Spurs are average defensively, and below average offensively. And you need to be way above average to make it through the playoffs.

With Manu on the bench, the Spurs are still a powerful team. Good enough to win the West? Possibly. But good enough to go all the way? Probably not.

Ergo: Spurs would be nowhere without Duncan, but at least somewhere without Manu. We obviously need both of them -- especially this year -- to go all the way and take our fifth out of ten.

[roycrikside]

Duncan is the glue. Without him, everything falls apart. It's apparent in *every* game -- when Duncan is on the bench, the Spurs are average defensively, and below average offensively. And you need to be way above average to make it through the playoffs.

With Manu on the bench, the Spurs are still a powerful team. Good enough to win the West? Possibly. But good enough to go all the way? Probably not.

Ergo: Spurs would be nowhere without Duncan, but at least somewhere without Manu. We obviously need both of them -- especially this year -- to go all the way and take our fifth out of ten.

With Manu on the bench, the Spurs have been outscored for the season. Doesn't seem all that powerful to me.

[sheriee84]

I think Tim will always be the MVP of the spurs.... Manu is absolutely wonderful, but Tim gives us stability and focus... He knows and has perfectded the basics of basketball, and that will always win games.
Manu is my favorite player though... He can create something out of nothing.... He adds spark and has an uncanny ability to know whats going on around him (sometimes without even looking). His passing is spectacular, and his shots (while crazy sometimes) are great. But, when he has a bad game, you can tell... His passes miss their mark and his shots just won't go in... But all in all Manu can carry a team for a game, but Tim carries the team for a season.

[DAF86]

I think Tim will always be the MVP of the spurs.... Manu is absolutely wonderful, but Tim gives us stability and focus... He knows and has perfectded the basics of basketball, and that will always win games.
Manu is my favorite player though... He can create something out of nothing.... He adds spark and has an uncanny ability to know whats going on around him (sometimes without even looking). His passing is spectacular, and his shots (while crazy sometimes) are great. But, when he has a bad game, you can tell... His passes miss their mark and his shots just won't go in... But all in all Manu can carry a team for a game, but Tim carries the team for a season.

Tim is the MVP of this team i'm not arguing that. But people should stop saying that Manu can't carry a team for a season. He's done that through all his life. When Manu gets to a team that team becomes an instant winner and i'm not talking about just games i'm talking 'bout championships and in all of those teams (with the exception of the Spurs) he's been the man.
So i think Manu knows something 'bout carrying teams.