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Cool....you were way too sharp for me.
Whott is now trying to use his trolls to help support his cause. Obvious an act of desperation. yeah, I'm done with this now.
Cool....you were way too sharp for me.
Hey...I always give the answers.
Tell me, who won a le with Avery Johnson...I can't wait to hear your answer.
Let me explain sothing to you. Footwork and basketball savy is NOT athleticism. Larry Bird was a tad overweight in his hey day and could still fake out anyone and score with the best of them. Hakeem Olajuwon was not a freak athlete the way Dwight Howard and Lebron James are.
Vince Carter, Kobe, Jordan, Gerald Wallace, etc arent anywhere NEAR the athlete that LeBron James is. You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about. LeBron James is 6-8, 250 and hes one of the fastest players in the game. Crazy fast. To compare, Michael Jordan was 6-6 and 212 pounds. Kobe is 6-6, 205. Do you understand the significance of these measurements? LeBron James athleticism is UNHEARD of and we might need see a physcial specimen like him again for a while.
As a pure athlete, the only NBA player who comes close to LeBron is Dwight Howard who is 6'11, 265 and can dunk on a 12 foot rim. His shoulders are so big they makes his head look oddly small for his body. Just look at this picture:
Doesnt that image look weird? Wouldnt you swear it was a 6 footer dunking on an 8 foot rim? No way a 7 footer could get that much height and dunk from that far way. TRY THIS: Imagine that its Duncan doing that. Can you even picture it?
Youre nostalgic love for Robinson is understood, but to mention him in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid. Whether its modern medicine or just a freak coincidence, we are seeing THE two greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen at the same time.
Last edited by da_suns_fan; 09-03-2009 at 04:59 PM.
I begun to watch nba with David but at that time from France it wasn't easy, so I'm more familiar with Tim for sure.
Saying that I just feel I'm blessed to have seen two amazing athletes and human beings playing for my favorite Team. I miss the twin tower time.
I can just see Nathan E's first day as Spurs GM:
Journalist: So Mr. E you've inherited a team that lost in the first round last year. What will you do differently?
Nathan Explosion: Well, first of all, I didn't inherit a team, I inherited Tim Duncan.
Journalist: Ok but you got eliminated in the first round and obviously Tim Duncan is not enough and he needs help.
Nathan Explostion: You must not have seen 2003 when the San Antonio Duncans swept through the playoffs, or be aware that Tim Duncan has 3 Finals MVPs. Tim Duncan will step up and win a le.
Journalist: Then why didn't he step up last year?
Nathan Explostion: He didn't feel like a winning a le last year. You need to understand that has a historian of the game I know what it takes to win a le, and that's Tim Duncan. My first move as GM is going to be to waive the other 13 guys on the roster as I don't see any reason to pay anyone when all you need is Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan will step up and we will win a le. It's just that simple.
Journalist: So that's it, Tim Duncan is going to step up and win you a le?
Nathan Explosion: Yes, did you not watch the 2003 playoffs or something? Can you not count finals MVP trophy's or what? Do you not know how to read a list of the greatest players of all time?
Hakeem was a freak athlete. You guys clearly must not have seen the early version of Olajuwon. I don't think he was as athletic as Robinson but he wasn't too far behind. Kemp was athletic as too....
No, I understand it all.Vince Carter, Kobe, Jordan, Gerald Wallace, etc arent anywhere NEAR the athlete that LeBron James is. You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about. LeBron James is 6-8, 250 and hes one of the fastest players in the game. Crazy fast. To compare, Michael Jordan was 6-6 and 212 pounds. Kobe is 6-6, 205. Do you understand the significance of these measurements? LeBron James athleticism is UNHEARD of and we might need see a physcial specimen like him again for a while.
As a pure athlete, the only NBA player who comes close to LeBron is Dwight Howard who is 6'11, 265 and can dunk on a 12 foot rim. His shoulders are so big they makes his head look oddly small for his body. Just look at this picture:
Doesnt that image look weird? Wouldnt you swear it was a 6 footer dunking on an 8 foot rim? No way a 7 footer could get that much height and dunk from that far way. TRY THIS: Imagine that its Duncan doing that. Can you even picture it?
Youre nostalgic love for Robinson is understood, but to mention him in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid. Whether its modern medicine or just a freak coincidence, we are seeing THE two greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen at the same time.
I understand that he's 265 pounds and runs around like a 180-pounder. I understand that he was not only the best basketball player in the state of Ohio back in high school, he was also the best football player in the state. He could've been the best football player of all-time just as easily as he might become the best basketball player of all-time.
I understand that Howard can get up there. I understand that he tacked a sticker 12'6" above the hardwood while dunking a basketball.
Really, I get it. And I'm not saying that LeBron and Dwight don't belong in the conversation.
What I am saying is that you've either forgotten how athletic D-Rob was, never really watched him much in the first place, or hit your head really hard sometime since 1996 (the year the Admiral injured his back and lost some of his torque). It's not that you can be wrong by saying one or the other is more athletic. Both have valid arguments. You can only be wrong by saying something like this:
"To mention (Robinson) in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid."
And maybe no big man has ever been able to get quite that high, but I know of one that got real close. Then again, that's why I said that even with a 29" vert, I was anything but an athlete.
I can see Whott as GM IN 95.
Reporter: "Whott, your team suffered a terrible defeat to the Rockets and David Robinson was outplayed badly by Hakeem. What are you planning on doing different?"
Whott: "I'M TRADING THE ENTIRE TEAM BUT DAVID. THEY ALL SUCKED. DAVID ROBINSON DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG. HIS TEAM DIDN'T STEP UP FOR HIM. HE DID ALL HE COULD.
Reporter: "But wasn't David Robinson "guarding" Hakeem while Hakeem went off for 40 points? And didn't Robinson not only fail to slow down Hakeem, but also failed to raise his play to counter him and cancel out the Dream's output?"
Whott: "DON'T QUOTE FACTS TO ME. DAVID ROBINSON IS HANDS DOWN THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER. THERE'S NO WAY ROBINSON WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS LOSS. I DON'T CARE IF HE IS THE STAR OF THIS TEAM, WHEN THE SPURS CRUISED TO 59 VICTORIES ROBINSON WAS ENTIRELY TO CREDIT. THE DEFEAT IS NOT HIS FAULT THOUGH. THIS 59 WIN TEAM SUCKED ALL YEAR AND IT SHOWED IN THE PLAYOFFS."
Reporter: "But this team won 59 games, so obviously the team wasn't terrible. How can you blame the entire team for the loss but exclude Robinson. After all, the truly great players rise to the occasion and lead their team to victory from the front. Robinson was badly outplayed by his counterpart. Are you saying that he had no part in this defeat?"
Whott: "YOU'RE AN IDIOT. LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA."
You see, your argument is falling apart so you've now turned from arguing the point to attacking the messenger. Sound facts have defeated your "logic".
This debate between you and I is no longer a debate, just a one sided ass kicking by me. I'll be the bigger man and bow out gracefully and let you live in your own fantasy and think that somehow you emerged victorious from this discussion.
BTW, Dwight didn't dunk that. He didn't make it so he threw the ball through the rim.Let me explain sothing to you. Footwork and basketball savy is NOT athleticism. Larry Bird was a tad overweight in his hey day and could still fake out anyone and score with the best of them. Hakeem Olajuwon was not a freak athlete the way Dwight Howard and Lebron James are.
Vince Carter, Kobe, Jordan, Gerald Wallace, etc arent anywhere NEAR the athlete that LeBron James is. You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about. LeBron James is 6-8, 250 and hes one of the fastest players in the game. Crazy fast. To compare, Michael Jordan was 6-6 and 212 pounds. Kobe is 6-6, 205. Do you understand the significance of these measurements? LeBron James athleticism is UNHEARD of and we might need see a physcial specimen like him again for a while.
As a pure athlete, the only NBA player who comes close to LeBron is Dwight Howard who is 6'11, 265 and can dunk on a 12 foot rim. His shoulders are so big they makes his head look oddly small for his body. Just look at this picture:
Doesnt that image look weird? Wouldnt you swear it was a 6 footer dunking on an 8 foot rim? No way a 7 footer could get that much height and dunk from that far way. TRY THIS: Imagine that its Duncan doing that. Can you even picture it?
Youre nostalgic love for Robinson is understood, but to mention him in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid. Whether its modern medicine or just a freak coincidence, we are seeing THE two greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen at the same time.
If Howard had taken one more step, he would have made it. Of course it would have looked like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGKMOT8yDH4
Here's a good video showing Robinson's athleticism. Look at his quickness with the ball and off the floor. The one thing that Howard can't do that Robinson is doing repeatedly in this video is Howard isn't as good a weakside defender.
Look how many times DRob comes from the help position for the block. There's even one play where Robinson navigates traffic down the center of the lane and still gets the block on a man who had a step on him.
Definitely canning AJ and Rodman for being complete offensive liabilities and easy men to double off of.
This is pretty much you should shut the up and stick to reporting...
Reporter: "But wasn't David Robinson "guarding" Hakeem while Hakeem went off for 40 points? And didn't Robinson not only fail to slow down Hakeem, but also failed to raise his play to counter him and cancel out the Dream's output?"
#1. Hakeem wasn't defending David all by himself, check David's FTA if you do not understand this.
#2. I realize you are a ing idiot, but if you weren't, you'd notice Hakeem's back up ing point guard went off for 30 ing points from the bench in the pivotal game of that series, while David's PG never scored more than 29 points in a game, in his entire playoff career.
But you are an idiot so I don't expect you to notice things like that, I also don't expect you to notice that David got the line more than Hakeem, that in several games David outshot Hakeem from the floor...and the disaprity is really because of two games more than anything else.
And I'd also point out to that when a guy throws up a 29% line in a game, it's probably means he got doubled to non idiots.
I'd also point out, that in the Spurs first championship season. Tim Duncan had a game that he only scored 5 points in, and his team still won.
You out of you ing mind if you think any of David's teams would have ever won a game like that.
Oh yeah...Duncan didn't lead the Spurs in scoring against the toughest team the Spurs faced in 99...
Robinson did.
What I am saying is this, idiot, Tim Duncan got his ass outplayed by Amare as badly, his team won.Reporter: "But this team won 59 games, so obviously the team wasn't terrible. How can you blame the entire team for the loss but exclude Robinson. After all, the truly great players rise to the occasion and lead their team to victory from the front. Robinson was badly outplayed by his counterpart. Are you saying that he had no part in this defeat?"
And at least David wasn't get punked by Dirk ing Nowtizki.
Maybe Duncan just didn't feel like stepping up in those series.
No, it's a more a case of you being a simple minded idiot bringing the absolute lowest tier arguments you can bring into this thread, arguments I have had a thousand times...You see, your argument is falling apart so you've now turned from arguing the point to attacking the messenger. Sound facts have defeated your "logic".
Your nose has been rubbed in your own , you're just too simple minded to realize it...
But hey, at least you got Jazz fan and Rocket fan to console you...right? Spur fan?
So bow the out then...I coulda sworn you already said you would...do it.This debate between you and I is no longer a debate, just a one sided ass kicking by me. I'll be the bigger man and bow out gracefully and let you live in your own fantasy and think that somehow you emerged victorious from this discussion.
I made a promise to myself I was never going to let someone with this simple minded argument get the last word in...so the sooner you shut the up the better as far as I am concerned.
I suggest you spend your free time actually learning what guards do, and why AJ and Vinny are not equal to any of the other guards any of those other guys had.
Last edited by whottt; 09-03-2009 at 11:16 PM.
Wow. This thread has some incredibly inane takes in it. ANYONE that says David Robinson doesn't belong in the conversation in terms of athleticism in "big men" is an outright idiot and either has no memory or must be under the age where seeing him play was a regular thing.
David Robinson would probably easily be in the top 20 players of all-time. And no, I don't just mean basketball. When a guy is 6'7" and qualifies for a gymnastics team, that is something no center on the planet today would be able to do. Dirk is considered an agile 7 footer today, David at his best would make Dirk look more like Shawn Bradley than a wing player. D-Rob was one of the freakiest players to ever play the game.
And, is anyone seriously going to rip him for having trouble guarding Hakeem in the mid-90s? NO ONE could have guarded Hakeem then. There's not a single player in NBA history that could have locked down The Dream when he was in the prime of his career. He torched EVERY player he played against. He would make great defensive centers look absolutely lost on D. That's like ripping someone for not being able to stop Michael Jordan.
"Wow, this guy MIGHT have the credentials to get into the HoF... but Jordan lit him up for 40+ a couple games, that really tarnishes his legacy..."
The fact that you want to show why one Spurs player is better than another is kind of idiotic. This is a team. And it's a team game. It's not about who's better than the other. I hardly ever agree with Whottt, but he's defending D-Rob to a bunch of people who seem to be either pre-pubescent in the 90s or have Alzheimer's Disease. Talking about one of the 50 best players in NBA history and one of the classiest players to ever step on a court or a field is just really, really infuriating, and I don't blame Whottt for getting upset. Robinson deserves way more respect than he's getting in this thread.
And your argument works both ways. If Jordan didn't have Pippen, there's a 100% chance that he's not in the top 2 of all-time on everyone's list. Duncan deserves a spot in at least the top 12 of all-time because of what he's accomplished, but if the Spurs don't land those perfect draft picks with Manu and Tony.... he's not sniffing the top 20, and that's a guarantee, because he'd probably be sitting on "only" 2 rings right now just like David and Hakeem.
Nobody talked DRob. God you all are getting your panties in a wad over this. I love DRob, but I'm also realistic. Tim is a better player, period. DRob said if from Day 1 so I'm not alone in thinking this. I saw DRob play his whole career. I've seen Duncan play his whole career, so this isn't based on highlights.
Anyone who doesn't see that Duncan is a superior player is smoking something, a homer, or just doesn't know the game of basketball. When you're career winning percentage is 70%, you might have something to do with that. When you're team wins more games than anyone in any sport in the US since you arrived, you might have something to do with it.
And you're the best ever at your position, and a Top 10 player EVER on top of that, you're pretty damn good.
And if you need more evidence, Tim Duncan was giving Hakeem, DRob, Shaq, Barkley and Malone fits before he ever stepped foot on an NBA court and polished up his game further.
To say that Tim needed Tony and Gino to make the Top 20 is ridiculous. Remember, Tim allows Pop to coach the way he does. Tim sets the tone on the team. Tim can get yelled at, so anyone can get yelled at. From Day 1 anyone who puts on a Spurs uniform knows that Tim is the leader and if you don't fall in line, you're not sticking plain and simple.
Pop says that the secret to his being one of the best coaches ever is Tim Duncan. He says it tongue in cheek but there's a lot of truth to that. When you have a Top 10 player of all time on your team, it can be pretty easy to coach, especially when he's not a prima donna.
This thread hasn't turned into a "disrespect DRob thread" but rather a "disrespect the guy who brought 4 les to our team" thread.
You Spurs "fans" should be ashamed of yourself for not appreciating what we're seeing on the court today. Tim isn't going to be here forever, and it might not look good for a while once he retires.
BTW, even if Tim only had 2 les, he'd still have 2 MVPs (one more than DRob) and 2 Finals MVPs (two more than DRob) to his name. His individual accolades alone would get him in the Top 10.
What are you talking about? Several people have stated wrong or incompetent things about David in this thread. I'll go back and repost them for you if you'd like, but seeing as you were also posting at the time, I'm not sure why I need to.
You're right, though. Me saying that Duncan is a top 10 player of all-time is just blasphemous. I should be shot for not putting him immediately as a top 3 player of all-time.
You missed the point of what I said. Spurs fans DO. NOT. CARE. That Duncan is a better player than Robinson. In fact, we should rename this to "Tim Duncan hate thread."
Speaking of which, have you read the thread le? You do understand that Tim Duncan has nothing to do with this thread in the first place, right?
In reality, there's just no need for the comparison. Both are equally loved in San Antonio and both were part of the first two championships. You're so gung-ho about proving that Duncan is better, and no one cares (well, it pisses whottt off because he thinks it's a stupid comparison to make), and it bothers you. But you did wade into an argument where kingmalaki was essentially trashing D-Rob, da_suns_fan is stating how unathletic D-Rob is compared to Howard... and if you can't see how that would seem to ally you with the minimalization of Robinson's career, I don't know what to tell you.
No you dude...
You are the one saying David Robinson couldn't do , couldn't get it done, trying to give every bit of credit to Duncan, and then you are whining like a when people don't share you stupid ing view of the game and point out how Duncan had help too...stick that point up your ass.
You know, it' bad enough I had to listen to you stupid king idiots since the day the Spurs won the le...
David unselfishless took the unglamourour for the good of the team, and it was HE that was anchoring the ing defense and guarding Shaq and the like.
And what did idiots say to that?
Duncan did it all...
That'a why players are selfish, because of idiots like you, with your stupid ing mindset.
But you come in here and do that when David''s going to into the HOF?
His moment?
No...you go yourself.
You low class piece of .
You aren't just disgracing Spur fans, you're disgracing Tim Duncan as well...because he'll be the first guy to tell you he didn't do it by himself, and even if he wouldn't, he wouldn't be saying he did it all himself when David's going into the HOF
So shut the up and stop whining about Duncan not getting enough credit, he gets plenty of credit, it's David that is marginalized, taken for granted, and doesn't get enough credit.
Fans like you make me wish David Robinson had never even played for the Spurs, becausse you didn't ing deserve him.
I'm not going to rip him too bad for not being able to stop Hakeem. But I will rip him for not being the best big on the floor everytime he faced another HOF big in a playoff series (0-4). And I only mention this since we were debating stars "stepping up" (i.e. how Hakeem and Duncan did).
And that's why you don't have much credibility in this thread.
I love the tomahawk alley-oop at the 2:50 mark.
You look at the supporting casts and it's easy to see why David was taken away.
I mean it's a freaking joke that anyone thinks the 93-94 Spurs should have beaten anyone. Look at the roster on that team sometime and where they were in their careers.
Bonus points if anyone can tell me who the PG was on that team.
It took a superhuman season from Drob to get that to the playoffs.
Honestly, David' crime was taking teams that had no business being in the playoffs into the playoffs.
Yeah his first 2 teams were good, and were obviously destined for greatness, until health and bad trades dismantled it....and so were the 95-96 teams good...but NBA championship good? There's no way you can say a backfield of Vinny and AJ was an NBA championship quality backcourt for a one superstar team.
No ing way...
I mean you don't think giving David, Drexler or even Cassell, much less ing Magic, Kobe, Jerry West, or even Manu and Tony wouldn't have made a ing difference? Get ing serious.
Tony Parker as a 19 year old qualifies as the best scoring guard David would have ever had.
Not even ing close, if you take David Robinson off those teams and replace them with any of the players being discussed, those teams still weren't going to win a championship.
And some of those teams David took to the playoffs would have been in the lottery without him, much less winning 50 games.
Any team Tim Duncan was on with David Robinson was automatically better than any team David Robinson was on by himself...because of David as much as Tim.
You guys that say this are the same type of guys that said John Elway was a choker and sucked and couldn't win the big one.
John Elway's only crime, much like David, was being good enough to get his teams in over their heads to the degree that they recieved colossal asswhuppings when they actually ran into a great team. As soon as they were part of a legitimate team, the truth was revealed.
You say David never stepped up...that's because he played stepped up for the entire regular season to get his team into playoffs, and there was no higher level to step up too. In the playoffs the teams will take away what you do best so you better have something else going for you. Those teams still have to have talent.
Hakeem got his face busted and his team went on a 18 game winning streak...
Michael Jordan retired and his team still almost made the finals..without him.
The year David went out with injury it was the greatest single season negative turnaround in NBA history...
That is a far cry from 18 game winning streaks and challenging for the finals.
Great teams win championships...that's why Wilt didn't win it every year, because let me tell you, if one man was all it took to win a championship, Wilt Chamberlain would be the guy with 11 rings, not Bill Russell(and the 5-6 other HOF'ers he played with every year of his career).
Last edited by whottt; 09-04-2009 at 02:02 PM.
If the truth removes my credibility then so be it. I have seen Duncan and Hakeem get the best of another great big when it mattered. When did you see Robinson do this?
Training camp is in full swing.
After this thread, no more pulling out the "Off Season" card.
Oh yeah slick? I guarantee you any point you show me Hakeem or Duncan stepping up in that situation, I will show you a PG that could hit a 3 ing pointer.
Then you're just going to have to show David's hitting one.
Thanks for playin'.
About as often as you saw his PG knock down an outside shot when his man was sagging off him onto David, the standard way of defending him.When did you see Robinson do this?
PS: Thanks for proving you didn't watch the Con Finals, if you had you'd have known Robinson kicked Hakeem's ass off the court in the fourth quarter of a couple of those games....when Hakeem was handed the task of dending Robinson on one.
Amazingly, even the most dominant scorers ever never scored a single ing point sitting on the bench...which is where anyone asked to guard David Robinson for an entire game by themselves usually found themselves in the fourth quarter.
Get this straight...David Robinson played 14 seasons(really only 13), the last 5 of those getting about half as many touches and FTA(or less) as he did the first 8...yet he shot 600 more FT's than Hakeem did in an 18 year career.
I remember one game where ing Hakeem scored like 6 points against David when he tried to guard him. Was probably the worst game of Hakeem's career.
Even when he was in his on his last legs, like in 2001, in game 3 VS LA when the Spurs were being dominated because of double teams, on Duncan, while his guards did , resulting in the worst Conference Finals loss in NBA history, the Spurs switched to running the offense through David and the Lakers tried guarding him one on one with Shaq....
David had 18 points or so by the 3rd quarter and Shaq on the bench in foul trouble, from trying to guard David. I think Shaq had 4 fouls by the 3rd.
And David could do that to anyone, any C, pretty much any SF, that attemped to guard him.
That is why they never even attempted it for longer than spot minutes after his second year in the league.
When the Spurs ran that little iso with David where he would face his man up to the basket, you either foul David or double teame him, or you were going to get scored on while David's defender was left flat footed.
It scored in a half court setting, it drew double teams, it did everything you want your bigman to do, it just did it a little differently, because David didn't have a big enough butt to use a tradiational post up game. Yeah it wasn't the prototypical back to the basket game to disect a defense, but it would work well enough, if you had some one that would punish them when they did it.
That was his post game, and while it may not have been what you are used to seeing, it was extremely effieicient, it's why David won 5 IBM awards given to the player who was statistically proven to the best the player in the league and who did the most to help his team win. He would destroy the opposing teams defensive rotation if they attempted to guard him, one on one.
And David owned that ing award, that's probably why they got rid of it...because it didn't jibe with all the hype they were laying on players who didn't win that award.
and hey slick, two of those guys on Hakeem's team have more rings than Hakeem does, a couple of them from doing the exact same ing things for Duncan, that they did for Hakeem, against David.
Nobody says that game sucks when Amare uses it...and Amare can't even create his own shot like David could, nor can he jump as high, nor is he as fast.
David's not what you say he was....and he's a great deal smarter than you and most basketball fans(and coaches and gms) and he had an extremely efficient game for winning basketball games...that's why the computer always picked him, despite what the experts said and the league wanted.
Last edited by whottt; 09-05-2009 at 02:10 PM.
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