God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[RandomGuy]

And my complaint was more along the lines of, "good grief not again..."

But it seems as though some of the athiest/agnostic campers in this forum need to get their weekly fix of bashing GOD and believers, so be it... I can't change that. Circle jerk amongst yourselves as much as is needed to justify your beliefs, to make yourselves feel better...

True. There is a paucity of civility amongst the athiest/agnostic set at times, but one can easily say the same of the believing set as well.

I do find it humorous that someone who probably participates in prayer circles/discussions or weekly church services would describe non-believers as participating in group-think and self congratulatory flagellation.

For the record:

It is human nature to congregate with like-minded people. GO SPURS.

[Phenomanul]

C'mon, man -- that's not proof, that's dogma parading in proof's clothing. That's great your belief is so strong, but you end up sounding like the Christian version of redzero... that is, completely closed to a different interpretation of reality.

I believe in God, but the alternative isn't simply abiogenesis as you suggest. Life could be as much a property of matter as mass for all we know, and exist in a continuum. And when scientists say our universe had a definite beginning, that doesn't ipso facto mean it was THE BEGINNING of all things, just that our telescopes can only see so far. Considering we still have only theoretical structures to speculate about the more mysterious aspects of astrophysics (like what happens to all the matter that gets sucked into black holes... is it expelled into another dimension? Does it eventually reach a tipping point and explode? Who knows?), characterizing scientists as stumbling over themselves to make the Big Bang inconsistent with scripture is a fabrication.

I also think it's interesting you make such a point of raising the issue of free will while also citing :


18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I've always had trouble reconciling that passage with the notion of free will. Those who believe in Him do so because God has made himself plain to them... but what of the others to whom God has not made himself plain? Why would God create beings that are unable to perceive him? Especially when the consequence of not perceiving him will result in eternal damnation?

You will say free will is the operator here, but that doesn't make sense. Would the average person even remotely be tempted by carnal sins if God (and therefore the consequences of disobeying him) were plain to them? Are people who have never been exposed to the Bible created just to go to or limbo? Finally, if God exists and there are people who cannot perceive Him, where do you get off castigating them when they should be the objects of your pity? Would you judge a blind man for not being able to see the way your post shows you judge the non-believers?

That passage coupled with Psalms 19 actually denotes the limits of General revelation (GOD's existence as manifest by nature)... It doesn't reveal GOD like Special revelation does in the Scriptures themselves...

As for the conundrum surrounding free will and this passage... I too was perplexed by it until I realized it just meant that GOD allowed us to pursue the evil desires of our hearts. He didn't place those desires in us... He just allowed us to do what we wanted knowing that eventually we would reap the consequences for having rejected Him. He doesn't control us... even when He is in control of everything. He has placed that restriction on Himself (self-imposed) to afford us the right to choose.

As for your final question there... it's a philosophical quandry... It isn't that men are blind to GOD... they are so full of themselves that they've displaced whatever room they may have had to receive Him. It's all their own doing though, because we are all born with the void to search for Him.

[Phenomanul]

Also... WTF is with this statement? I guess this fantasy of superiority you seem to be entrenched in isn't limited to metaphysics? All those who disagree with you merit your sneering not only for their Godlessness, but their supposed unemployment, too? The spirit of Christ is really strong within you, isn't it?

So stating I have to work and can't devote my time to following these threads is an act of superiority? ummm ok whatever...

I was stating that because usually what follows is that my silence is misconstrued as concession...

But honestly, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else here says... our beliefs are deeply entrenched with our life experience. Nothing said in this forum can change that... given that premise, my time here (as well as that of others here, believers or not, is still a big waste of time)...

I bother because TRUTH is important... unfortunately this is not an ideal medium, platform or venue for that message... given the belligerent, auto-sufficient, all-knowing nature of the audience...

Caring is my problem...

[RandomGuy]

That passage coupled with Psalms 19 actually denotes the limits of General revelation (GOD's existence as manifest by nature)... It doesn't reveal GOD like Special revelation does in the Scriptures themselves...

As for the conundrum surrounding free will and this passage... I too was perplexed by it until I realized it just meant that GOD allowed us to pursue the evil desires of our hearts. He didn't place those desires in us... He just allowed us to do what we wanted knowing that eventually we would reap the consequences for having rejected Him. He doesn't control us... even when He is in control of everything. He has placed that restriction on Himself (self-imposed) to afford us the right to choose.

As for your final question there... it's a philosophical quandry... It isn't that men are blind to GOD... they are so full of themselves that they've displaced whatever room they may have had to receive Him. It's all their own doing though, because we are all born with the void to search for Him.

God loves us so much he allows evil to exist?

Why allow evil in the first place, when it would be just as easy to create a universe free of evil?

[RandomGuy]

I am just a human being with limited reasoning, but if *I* can conceive of a universe without evil, I can only assume that God did too.

One therefore has to wonder why evil exists, unless God loves evil too?

[Phenomanul]

God loves us so much he allows evil to exist?

Why allow evil in the first place, when it would be just as easy to create a universe free of evil?

HE didn't make us drones... we indulged ourselves in evil at our choosing not His...

like hot and cold... one could describe 'evil' as being devoid of GOD... so naturally it would follow that if He gave us the choice to choose... rejection is inherently and evil act.

GOD will eventually restore balance by vanquishing evil forever...

[clambake]

That passage coupled with Psalms 19 actually denotes the limits of General revelation (GOD's existence as manifest by nature)... It doesn't reveal GOD like Special revelation does in the Scriptures themselves...

As for the conundrum surrounding free will and this passage... I too was perplexed by it until I realized it just meant that GOD allowed us to pursue the evil desires of our hearts. He didn't place those desires in us... He just allowed us to do what we wanted knowing that eventually we would reap the consequences for having rejected Him. He doesn't control us... even when He is in control of everything. He has placed that restriction on Himself (self-imposed) to afford us the right to choose.

you should still be perplexed. it's completely false....this free will garbage.

"thought shall worship no other god"

free will

[Blake]

Also... WTF is with this statement? I guess this fantasy of superiority you seem to be entrenched in isn't limited to metaphysics? All those who disagree with you merit your sneering not only for their Godlessness, but their supposed unemployment, too? The spirit of Christ is really strong within you, isn't it?

[Phenomanul]

you should still be perplexed. it's completely false....this free will garbage.

"thought shall worship no other god"

free will

Old Covenant =not= New Covenant... but what do you care?

[MannyIsGod]

True. There is a paucity of civility amongst the athiest/agnostic set at times, but one can easily say the same of the believing set as well.

I do find it humorous that someone who probably participates in prayer circles/discussions or weekly church services would describe non-believers as participating in group-think and self congratulatory flagellation.

For the record:

It is human nature to congregate with like-minded people. GO SPURS.

Indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

[admiralsnackbar]

That passage coupled with Psalms 19 actually denotes the limits of General revelation (GOD's existence as manifest by nature)... It doesn't reveal GOD like Special revelation does in the Scriptures themselves...

As for the conundrum surrounding free will and this passage... I too was perplexed by it until I realized it just meant that GOD allowed us to pursue the evil desires of our hearts. He didn't place those desires in us... He just allowed us to do what we wanted knowing that eventually we would reap the consequences for having rejected Him. He doesn't control us... even when He is in control of everything. He has placed that restriction on Himself (self-imposed) to afford us the right to choose.

As for your final question there... it's a philosophical quandry... It isn't that men are blind to GOD... they are so full of themselves that they've displaced whatever room they may have had to receive Him. It's all their own doing though, because we are all born with the void to search for Him.

I respect you've come to terms with the passage, but for the same reasons I listed earlier, I have not. We have the freedom to pursue the evil in our hearts, but what is the value of this freedom if one cannot see the whole picture? Would any sin be worthwhile if we had the per acity to see that it could lead to eternal damnation? I may like sex, but if I know a woman has AIDS, I won't bone her because I don't want to die. Take that scenario and literally multiply it by infinity.

The same thing holds for your second paragraph. If God's existence were so self-evident to all His creatures, there would be no desire to be full of one's self to the exclusion of God. Clearly not everyone can perceive Him.

[clambake]

Old Covenant =not= New Covenant... but what do you care?

out with the old!

[redzero]

Phenomanul, you aren't going to respond to my post?

Also, is slavery evil? Is murder evil? If so, then why does God condone it in the Bible?

[Phenomanul]

Interesting statement.

Let's paraphrase a bit:

"God exists because God created faith in God."

Circular reasoning in its most simple form.

Q. How do you know God exists?

A. Because God created faith in God.

The logical form that I can ferret out of this is:

A therefore A

Interestingly enough, one can also use this logic to conclude that the parody deity the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, because the FSM created the ability to conceive of Its Noodle-y Existance.

For someone so smart... how could you misconstrue the word "conduit"...??

The proper equation should have been:

His existence doesn't depend on our faith... our Salvation does...

[admiralsnackbar]

So stating I have to work and can't devote my time to following these threads is an act of superiority? ummm ok whatever...

I was stating that because usually what follows is that my silence is misconstrued as concession...

But honestly, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else here says... our beliefs are deeply entrenched with our life experience. Nothing said in this forum can change that... given that premise, my time here (as well as that of others here, believers or not, is still a big waste of time)...

I bother because TRUTH is important... unfortunately this is not an ideal medium, platform or venue for that message... given the belligerent, auto-sufficient, all-knowing nature of the audience...

Caring is my problem...

Is that why you used italics?

Perhaps you were just trying to convey the sheer volume and immediacy of the work you had to get to and it just got lost in translation...

[Blake]

As for the conundrum surrounding free will and this passage... I too was perplexed by it until I realized it just meant that GOD allowed us to pursue the evil desires of our hearts. He didn't place those desires in us... He just allowed us to do what we wanted knowing that eventually we would reap the consequences for having rejected Him. He doesn't control us... even when He is in control of everything. He has placed that restriction on Himself (self-imposed) to afford us the right to choose.

So why is free will and the ability to pursue evil desires removed when we get to Heaven?

Heaven sounds boring as .

[Blake]

Old Covenant =not= New Covenant... but what do you care?

Because if God is unchanging, then the Bible as a whole is inherently contradictory.

[Phenomanul]

True. There is a paucity of civility amongst the athiest/agnostic set at times, but one can easily say the same of the believing set as well.

I do find it humorous that someone who probably participates in prayer circles/discussions or weekly church services would describe non-believers as participating in group-think and self congratulatory flagellation.

For the record:

It is human nature to congregate with like-minded people. GO SPURS.

Well... if the shoe fits? Self-agrandizing satisfaction in your own logic, fallible human logic at that...

[Phenomanul]

Because if God is unchanging, then the Bible as a whole is inherently contradictory.

Only the context of our relationship with Him... but not like you would care to understand the technical differences...






















o stalker...

[redzero]

Because if God is unchanging, then the Bible as a whole is inherently contradictory.

Yeah, I don't know how a perfect being could have changing morals. If slavery was okay in the Old Testament, it should be okay in the New Testament.

[MannyIsGod]

God created us so we could be saved! I know I love it when my existence boils down to someone else being bored.

For the record, I don't consider myself an atheist in the least - I just find the whole salvation argument fairly odd.

[Phenomanul]

Lunch?

[Blake]

I was stating that because usually what follows is that my silence is misconstrued as concession...

So when someone else has to log out for a while, you declare victory.

Got it.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Yeah, I don't know how a perfect being could have changing morals. If slavery was okay in the Old Testament, it should be okay in the New Testament.

Dude, we went round n' round the mulberry bush on the whole slavery issue in the other thread, you just didn't want to accept the answer. The slavery the laws of the Bible are referring to were common BUSINESS ARRANGEMENTS during that timeframe, not the chattel slavery of the Hebrews and of ignominy in the Americas.

Quit chasing your own tail and rehashing tired old arguments.

[Blake]

Only the context of our relationship with Him... but not like you would care to understand the technical differences...

Please explain the technical differences such as why God commanded Hercules.....err......Samson to grow out long hair in the OT while Paul condemns it in the NT.

o stalker...

does God tell you to take messageboard posts personal?