NRA press conference in response to NewTown massacre

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Why are mass shootings worse than serial shootings? Aren't you just playing a political card to draw the distinction? Deaths are deaths. If the time between killings is 2 days or 2 minutes or 2 seconds, it's still the same number of deaths.

I am talking about both and despite your claims of a static homicide rate which the article you cited said otherwise, gun deaths from any source are down across the board for the country. Mass, individual, self inflicted, intentional or not.

[DMC]

I am talking about both and despite your claims of a static homicide rate which the article you cited said otherwise, gun deaths from any source are down across the board for the country. Mass, individual, self inflicted, intentional or not.

Gun deaths are down but not deaths overall. That says that guns aren't required to kill people. It defeats your entire argument, but thanks.

If they got rid of guns, why haven't they gotten rid of gun related deaths? Where are these mysterious guns coming from?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

One mass shooting happens within a year. Is that then irrelevant if a year goes by afterward and another doesn't happen? Here you want to ignore a year's worth of data but focus on one single event. And do you think that murders with semi-auto weapons can still occur but somehow magically mass shootings won't? Care to explain how that works?

Again I am not limiting my discussion to one thing by speaking on that thing. You suck at arguing.

Despite your current poo-pooing the fact remains that since 1996 there has not been a mass shooting in Australia. The trend relating to shootings has also improved.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Gun deaths are down but not deaths overall. That says that guns aren't required to kill people. It defeats your entire argument, but thanks.

The homicide rate has also gone down. See my ffs post from above. It's pretty obvious that you are googling and using confirmation bias. Youa re pulling a Darrin though in that in doing so you aren't reading the you are posting.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Correlation does not equate to cause.

And it's impossible to prove cause so correlation is the best that we have. It certainly better than just saying 'the only answer is deterrence' with absolutely no correlating evidence.

I will take some empirical evidence over ideological assertions.

[DMC]

Again I am not limiting my discussion to one thing by speaking on that thing. You suck at arguing.

Bull . I point something out to you, you say "but what about mass shootings?"

That's limiting the discussion to mass shootings, because you didn't even address the previous point I made. You are absolutely speaking to mass shootings, since gun related crime did not decrease, gun related deaths still happen, and murder rates are right about where they've been. The threat level there is the same as in the US, according to their own assessment.

Despite your current poo-pooing the fact remains that since 1996 there has not been a mass shooting in Australia. The trend relating to shootings has also improved.

Here you are right back at this goal post and you introduce "trend related shootings" but have you checked into serial crimes or why these events have decreased or did you just automatically associate it with something that supports your cause? Did you stop looking once you found something that confirmed your belief?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nothing is holding you back and keeping you here. Move if you think Australia's system is so much better than ours. 22 hours on a plane and you can be in your gun free heaven.

I'm not saying that is not a great choice for some (you apparently)

I'm saying the USA will never go that route.

Could be the way both continents were founded.

Australia? Prisoners from the UK dumped on an island in the middle of nowhere. They got good with killing with rocks and knives.

While I do have friends over there and appreciate them, that in no way makes this any less my home.

They tried what I am talking about and it worked. As such I want to try what they are doing in their home at my home. I am not just going to leave the country that I love.

Further, you cannot speak to what this country will or won't do. It's a democracy and times change. I am all for being pragmatic but I also refuse to stop pursuing what I think as best. I find both need to be considered in any endeavor.

[DMC]

And it's impossible to prove cause so correlation is the best that we have.

Then explain the correlation since these weapons still exist are are still being used in murders.

It certainly better than just saying 'the only answer is deterrence' with absolutely no correlating evidence.

So pulling something out of your ass is better than using a proven practice of deterrence? Do you really want to take the position that deterrence is unproven?

I will take some empirical evidence over ideological assertions.

You have no empirical evidence that links a gun ban to a reduction in mass shootings, to a reduction in gun related crime or even to a reduction in crime in general. You do not have all the variables, don't know what's going on in Australia, but you have the gun ban and that's all you need to wave the flag.

[DMC]

Fuzzy seems to have either missed or ignored this.

Australia 2012 Crime and Safety Report: Sydney
Stolen items; Theft; Assault; Burglary; Drug Trafficking; Extreme heat/drought; Wildfires; Floods; Hurricanes
East Asia & Pacific > Australia > Canberra; East Asia & Pacific > Australia > Sydney
3/27/2012
Overall Crime and Safety Situation

Crime Threats

The Bureau of Diplomatic Security rated the overall crime situation in Sydney and throughout Australia as MEDIUM. Travelers should exercise the same level of caution and security awareness as they would in any major city in the United States. The most common crimes encountered by Australians and foreign residents alike in Sydney are assaults (non-domestic) and breaking and entering. Armed robberies also occur. In these cases, the most common weapon used is a knife or other cutting implement that account for 35 percent of murders. Australia has extremely restrictive firearms legislation that make the purchase, possession, licensing, and storage of firearms very difficult when compared to U.S. jurisdictions. Local police have attributed a majority of burglaries and robberies to growing problems with substance abuse including methamphetamines (ICE). The crime trend for the past 12 months has remained static although reductions in some crimes have occurred. For example, assaults have dropped 6.4 percent from 2009/10 figures. Also stealing from the person and breaking and entering incidents have dropped by 5.8 percent and 3.6 percent, respectively.

In 2011, the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR) reported that Darlinghurst Road in Kings Cross, Oxford Street in Darlinghurst, King Street in Newtown, Glebe Point Road in Glebe, and George Street in the CBD were hotspots for city violence. Typically, alcohol fueled this violence. The BOCSAR report found that 56.8 percent of assaults in the city centre were within 50m of a liquor outlet.

Sydney’s murder rate has halved in the past decade, falling to its lowest level in recent history. Homicide cases have dropped from 88 in 2001 to 43 in 2011, reflecting a statewide trend in which murders fell from 119 to 77. The rate of one homicide per 100,000 people is the lowest in many years, according to BOSCAR. The percentage of murders committed with a firearm has declined across Australia since 1999 to approximately 15 percent currently. This is often attributed to stricter gun laws passed after the Port Arthur Massacre of 1996, yet gun violence has not declined accordingly. Improvements in policing are thought to have contributed to Sydney's falling murder rate, including crackdowns on Middle Eastern crime, gang violence, and domestic violence. Familial homicide, or murder committed by a spouse or relative, accounts for about 40 percent of murders in NSW.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bull . I point something out to you, you say "but what about mass shootings?"

That's limiting the discussion to mass shootings, because you didn't even address the previous point I made. You are absolutely speaking to mass shootings, since gun related crime did not decrease, gun related deaths still happen, and murder rates are right about where they've been. The threat level there is the same as in the US, according to their own assessment.

Here you are right back at this goal post and you introduce "trend related shootings" but have you checked into serial crimes or why these events have decreased or did you just automatically associate it with something that supports your cause? Did you stop looking once you found something that confirmed your belief?

I never said 'what about mass shootings.' You are now trying to make this about serial killers.

That's also not moving the goal posts. That is your failure of comprehension. Have we or have we not been talking about trends in gun related homicides, accidents etc before and after the ban?

You also do not get to choose what topics are discussed. You are being quite boring in trying to frame the discussion. It's typical lame debate tactics.

[DMC]

The homicide rate has also gone down. See my ffs post from above. It's pretty obvious that you are googling and using confirmation bias. Youa re pulling a Darrin though in that in doing so you aren't reading the you are posting.

I read it. I even responded. You ignored the point I made and sought to make your own.

You contend that a gun ban stopped mass shootings, but there was a shooting after the 96 ban, it happened in 2002. There were more gun laws passed after that. Maybe one day they will outlaw the thought of guns when these things continue to happen.

[DMC]

I never said 'what about mass shootings.' You are now trying to make this about serial killers.

Despite your current poo-pooing the fact remains that since 1996 there has not been a mass shooting in Australia. The trend relating to shootings has also improved.

i.e. "what about mass shootings?".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting

Seems like you need to research your facts.

That's also not moving the goal posts. That is your failure of comprehension. Have we or have we not been talking about trends in gun related homicides, accidents etc before and after the ban?

No, you have been talking about that because that's where you want the conversation to go. You win if it goes there because of course getting rid of guns will reduce gun related deaths, but it did not reduce deaths in general. That should be the goal, who cares how they are classified? That's just a talking point you're using to get by.

You also do not get to choose what topics are discussed. You are being quite boring in trying to frame the discussion. It's typical lame debate tactics.

Like you trying to frame it in "gun related deaths" and on to "mass shootings" instead of how the number of guns is not directly proportional to the number of murders. This is a thread about the NRA, not about Australia.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy seems to have either missed or ignored this.

I didn't miss it.

I just understand that while Sydney is in Australia it is not all of Australia.

And here is another ffs moment. Apparently the same brain that thinks

You have no empirical evidence that links a gun ban to .... even to a reduction in crime in general.

and then follows up with a link that says

Homicide cases have dropped from 88 in 2001 to 43 in 2011, reflecting a statewide trend in which murders fell from 119 to 77. The rate of one homicide per 100,000 people is the lowest in many years, according to BOSCAR.

Your self ownage is hilarious though. Keep on googling WC style. It's entertaining.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I read it. I even responded. You ignored the point I made and sought to make your own.

You contend that a gun ban stopped mass shootings, but there was a shooting after the 96 ban, it happened in 2002. There were more gun laws passed after that. Maybe one day they will outlaw the thought of guns when these things continue to happen.

You are right I was incorrect. There has been one shooting in Australia since the ban.

How many have there been in the US since 96?

And just because I talk about mass shootings does not mean that I don't address the other . You can try and frame it as such but we both know that not to be the case.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Then explain the correlation since these weapons still exist are are still being used in murders.
So pulling something out of your ass is better than using a proven practice of deterrence? Do you really want to take the position that deterrence is unproven?

You have no empirical evidence that links a gun ban to a reduction in mass shootings, to a reduction in gun related crime or even to a reduction in crime in general. You do not have all the variables, don't know what's going on in Australia, but you have the gun ban and that's all you need to wave the flag.

Show your 'proof of deterrence.' You certainly cannot point to the lifting of the assault weapons ban being lifted in 2006 to a decrease in gun related homicides, accidents etc.

All you have is an assertion.

[DMC]

I didn't miss it.

I just understand that while Sydney is in Australia it is not all of Australia.

And here is another ffs moment. Apparently the same brain that thinks



and then follows up with a link that says



Your self ownage is hilarious though. Keep on googling WC style. It's entertaining.

Show a link to the reduction in murder rates to the gun ban. That was my point. You truncated my response to try to make it seem different. Talk about how there have been no mass shootings since 1996.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, you have been talking about that because that's where you want the conversation to go. You win if it goes there because of course getting rid of guns will reduce gun related deaths, but it did not reduce deaths in general. That should be the goal, who cares how they are classified? That's just a talking point you're using to get by.

I want the conversation to include the point being made. That does not mean that is all that I want the conversation to include. I am not sitting there crying about moving the goalposts when other subjects are being discussed.

What you are doing is known as poisoning the well and its an age old lame ass tactic.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Show a link to the reduction in murder rates to the gun ban. That was my point. You truncated my response to try to make it seem different. Talk about how there have been no mass shootings since 1996.

I linked it in the first study from the get go. It talked about the trends before and after the ban as well as the static amounts.

You know this because now you are trying the correlation does not necessarily mean causation argument. You admit that there is a correlation. You have posted things saying the overall homicide rate has dropped to. It's hilarious watching you half reading google finds and selfowning. You are flailing all over the place.

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL @ Fuzzynuts jerking off thinking he won anything on the internets. LOL @ Fuzzynuts thinking his empirical evidence and critical thinking is going to miraculously convince the USA to follow Australia's example.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

LOL @ Fuzzynuts jerking off thinking he won anything on the internets. LOL @ Fuzzynuts thinking his empirical evidence and critical thinking is going to miraculously convince the USA to follow Australia's example.

More bluster from the blowhard. Don't deign to make claims on what I think. That you think that I think that is telling though.

[Latarian Milton]

reducing the legal access to guns is definitely gonna help reduce the chance of mass-shooting because most of the mass shooters, if i remember correct, got the guns from legal possessors which means they would've never got these guns in the first place if a more strict law on gun possession has been put in power, but your not gonna see a decrease in gun-related crimes overall since gangstas make up a major portion of these crimes n most of them buy firearms from the black market.

[DMC]

Show your 'proof of deterrence.' You certainly cannot point to the lifting of the assault weapons ban being lifted in 2006 to a decrease in gun related homicides, accidents etc.

All you have is an assertion.

Moving the goal posts again. I merely asked for a reliable link, not proof. You're asking for proof which is net speak for "convince me or you lose".

Proven practice of deterrence = Secret Service (not really secret, they are apparent when walking or standing around the president). How many mass shootings have occurred at police stations vs schools? What is a "show of force" and what is it intended to do? Why hasn't the USA been attacked by a foreign military since the Pearl Harbor attack? Why don't the LA citizens break into stores and loot regularly instead of only doing so when the police abandon the city? Why do people lock doors? It won't keep someone out who really intends on getting in.

It's all a proven practice of deterrence. An armed police officer in a school would cause some would be shooters to reconsider.

This is common sense, unlike your "less guns = less deaths" facade. If Mark Cuban bought 2 million guns and stored them in a series of safes, there would suddenly be more guns, but how would that increase the crime rate? It's the criminals with guns (that still exist in Australia obviously) that cause these things.

Fuzzy, trying to disarm the law abiding citizen because he loves his country so much but hates what it stands for.

[Latarian Milton]

Then explain the correlation since these weapons still exist are are still being used in murders.
So pulling something out of your ass is better than using a proven practice of deterrence? Do you really want to take the position that deterrence is unproven?

You have no empirical evidence that links a gun ban to a reduction in mass shootings, to a reduction in gun related crime or even to a reduction in crime in general. You do not have all the variables, don't know what's going on in Australia, but you have the gun ban and that's all you need to wave the flag.

australia n US ain't the same country to begin with, and i don't think having a gun gives you any sort of legit deterrent to those potential criminals when you don't have any idea even how to shoot, an old lonely pussy armed with guns are only gonna end up shot in the arse by his own firearms imho

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You bring up deterrence and when I respond to it then that is me moving the goalposts?

This is boring, bye.

[DMC]

I linked it in the first study from the get go. It talked about the trends before and after the ban as well as the static amounts.

You know this because now you are trying the correlation does not necessarily mean causation argument. You admit that there is a correlation. You have posted things saying the overall homicide rate has dropped to. It's hilarious watching you half reading google finds and selfowning. You are flailing all over the place.

Despite your current poo-pooing the fact remains that since 1996 there has not been a mass shooting in Australia. The trend relating to shootings has also improved.

The Monash University shooting refers to a shooting in which a student shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five. It took place at Monash University in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia on 21 October 2002. The gunman, Huan Yun Xiang, was acquitted of crimes related to the shootings due to mental impairment, and is currently under psychiatric care. Several of the people present in the room of the shootings have been commended for their bravery in tackling Xiang and ending the shooting.