Who Believes the Bible Is Literally True?

[pussyface]

I'm not even going to address this one.... there is way too much hate and misunderstanding in this post to try and simmer anything down....

are you disputing that this is true?

[Phenomanul]

That's interesting and something I have never heard before.

It does raise the question -- What implications does God's presence have?

That we don't have to wait for it... as in "I'll stand before GOD's presence when I get to heaven".... We can be treated to HIS presence here on earth... We are endowed with HIS Spirit, the Holy Spirit... when we recieve the message of Truth.

[Phenomanul]

are you disputing that this is true?

We'll start with your quote then....

People who literally believe the Bible (in spite of all that science/research/logic tells us) are living in the same Dark Ages that the religious fundamentalists in the East live in. It is not a coincidence that these two groups see each other as the Earthly personification of evil; the irony is that both have so much in common.

The only personification of evil is that some people choose to strap bombs to themselves to attack innocent people... I don't recall the last time Billy Graham or Max Lucado taught or employed this tactic...

Muslims are free to worship as they wish... My beef is not with them, as I had many muslim friends at college... including a roommate who was to be admired for his devotion to his beliefs...

Evil can be found in the heart of any man irregardless his religious beliefs... I'll again use the Stalin reference, he did not believe in GOD, or a higher power for that matter.... and he alone was the perpetrator behind the genocidal, and authoritarian murder of over 40 million people...

That's why you must abstain from making such broad generalizations...

In my estimation, both groups are EXTREMELY dangerous because they believe that no matter what happens, they have God on their side, actively participating in their coronation.

Our 'coronation' is having accepted GOD's free gift of salvation. There is no battle to wage in GOD's name... we aren't living in the times of the Hebrews when GOD was literally their King... their Commanding Chief. We are biblically instructed to honor the laws of the land unless they lead us to sin against GOD. I don't believe any such law exists under the American system... as no one is currently forced to do something against their will.

they believe those on the other side will go to if they don't repent and join their religion because they read this in a book/heard this from a leader.

While we may believe those who reject the gift of GOD through Jesus' sacrifice are in fact damning their soul... our message is not about doom, but about hope... people who don't believe... simply don't believe. Our purpose was simply to expose them to this message... "That all men should hear"....

It goes without saying that the "cram-it-down their throat" approach is counter-productive...

But again, comparing Radical Islam with Christianity is rather inflammatory... about as much as comparing Radical Islam with Islam itself...

[Spurminator]

Whoa whoa whoa....

What makes you think you (as a God-fearing Christian) are so much different than Islamic people?

Regardless of the details of each others bible...

Why would you disregard the texts? If you're comparing religions, you should go to the source, not the bas ized/humanized versions practiced by different denominations of people, many of which deviate completely from the original texts.

a) You both stand on a high moral ground by which only like-minded indviduals in life join your exclusive club in the after-life.

b) You both need/demand active recruitment from its members.

c) You both despise one another.

d) You both have lead war against one another and others based purely on the religious concept of Holy Land and holy tribute.

e) Both declare themselves to be in the knowledge of God in all actions and decisions.

f) Both religions' history is soaked in the blood of its enemies in its respective attempt to subjugate its territory.

Now, heres the part where you cite your differences (or not).

Its all relative. You two are the reason this world might not see the 3rd millenia (or even 2100 for that matter) whether you are directly responsible or not.

By far, the most sickening aspect of the entire fraud that is religion is the killing in God's name. Hypocritical, holier-than-thou bull is all you people are good for.

This could seriously go on and on for pages. You arent different...your ancestors just bought "the other" book.

The only time I tune in to a zealot is to get the news on how the majority of the sheeple in this country are thinking currently. Because God knows once you fervently believe in a faith, you follow its current leaders just as passionately.

My disdain is immeasureable. Not with you Boa, or Smeagol or anyone else particularly. Its your Church and what it stands for.

I dont give a if youre Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant or wtf-ever-christian-iteration-spinoff-of-whackos, youre Christian.

One step above cult based solely on popularity.

My Church stands for feeding the starving, for building homes for people who can't afford them, for providing medicine and other health care to people around the world who need it, for providing a safe place for kids in rough areas to play after school, and for providing counseling and support groups for people with many different kinds of addictions and vices. My Church has never once told me who to vote for, nor has my Church ever called for a Holy War against Muslims in our community. My Church tells us to love our enemies, which also happens to be what my Bible tells me.

And yes, my Church does work to spread the Christian message. And yes, that message includes discussions of salvation, baptism and other spiritual matters. But my Church does not exclude anyone who does not share those beliefs or chooses not to hear the message.

It is certainly regrettable that wars were fought in the name of Christianity, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian because of the sins of Christians 1,500 years ago any more than I will apologize for being white for the sins of white people 200 years ago. My Gospel doesn't tell me to storm the Middle East and massacre the unbelievers.

Likewise, it is regrettable that people use the Christian message as leverage for political or monetary gain. But my faith is not dependent on the rantings of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. My faith is not dependent on any man, it's based on the words of Jesus Christ, and if you can find any of Christ's teachings that you feel could directly lead to nuclear holocaust, I'd be interested to hear that interpretation.

[Phenomanul]

It was somewhat irrelevant (see my previous post). I actually just read it on Google's Buddhist Thought of the Day and thought it was thought-provoking.

However, even if posted the quote to make a point about this discussion, why is that point necessarily an attack on you? Quit being so damn egotistical.

I guess I missed this quip earlier....

DarkReign had just called me egotistical and then you post a quote which coined the topic again....

I don't know, call me crazy... but those were grounds enough to draw the conclusion... Don't try to back-pedal and point your finger all innocently back in my direction...

The quote was irrelevant to the flow of the thread with the only link being the word ego....

Now if you had given the explanation you gave later on... then maybe the quote would have made more sense... I guess in that light all of this is a moot point...

[Phenomanul]

Why would you disregard the texts? If you're comparing religions, you should go to the source, not the bas ized/humanized versions practiced by different denominations of people, many of which deviate completely from the original texts.




My Church stands for feeding the starving, for building homes for people who can't afford them, for providing medicine and other health care to people around the world who need it, for providing a safe place for kids in rough areas to play after school, and for providing counseling and support groups for people with many different kinds of addictions and vices. My Church has never once told me who to vote for, nor has my Church ever called for a Holy War against Muslims in our community. My Church tells us to love our enemies, which also happens to be what my Bible tells me.

And yes, my Church does work to spread the Christian message. And yes, that message includes discussions of salvation, baptism and other spiritual matters. But my Church does not exclude anyone who does not share those beliefs or chooses not to hear the message.

It is certainly regrettable that wars were fought in the name of Christianity, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian because of the sins of Christians 1,500 years ago any more than I will apologize for being white for the sins of white people 200 years ago. My Gospel doesn't tell me to storm the Middle East and massacre the unbelievers.

Likewise, it is regrettable that people use the Christian message as leverage for political or monetary gain. But my faith is not dependent on the rantings of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. My faith is not dependent on any man, it's based on the words of Jesus Christ, and if you can find any of Christ's teachings that you feel could directly lead to nuclear holocaust, I'd be interested to hear that interpretation.

They choose to close their eyes to the true work of the Church.... it's not convenient for them to see us in that light.

Sadly, they only wish to associate us with political agendas that differ with their own...

[scott]

That is the premise you have a hard time understanding... Be it by your definition or their self-prescribed le... your conclusion that 'Christians are more likely to end up in jail' is still based on a tabulation of Christians. Only GOD knows the sincerity of our hearts and only HE can truly discern the status of our soul.

hegamboa, I understand perfectly what you are saying - and like I've said give me another word for people who describe themselves as Christians, and I'll use that one instead. I've made a dintinct point in not ascribing to all Christians the characteristics of those who may do wrong. But we are talking about a REAL population of people here - those who claim to be Christian. I don't think it is prudent to discount all studies done on this population (as you've said that only God can determine whether or not someone is a real Christian) just because we don't like the definition.

Yourself and more notable smeagol have chosen to state that the findings of my study are irrelevant because you feel that the group who described themselves as Christians are not representative of your definition of Christians.

However, these are REAL people sitting in REAL jails for (most of the them) committing REAL crimes. You cannot discount reality. Reality is that not everyone who claims to be Christian acts in a socially acceptable (for lack of a better term) manner. Since many people like to perscribe Christianity as the cure for all the world's ills, the study is HIGHLY relevant. If nothing else, it indicates a staggeringly poor success rate at teaching its followers (I'll define for the purposes of this conversation followers as those who say they are Christians) to live in a Christ-like manner, especially compared to Atheists. That is a FACT, and I've provided the data to back it up.

So, my question to is this...

Given that self-identified Christians are more likely to be jailed than self-identified atheists (in addition to be more likely to be divorced link), why is it that "more Christianity" is the obvious answer to more Christians, and why should a non-Christian accept this as a solution or want Christianity brought into their children's public schools? If you could ensure that the teaching of Christianity brought with it some success, then maybe I could buy into it... but as I pointed out, the failure rate (of ensuring social obedience) is high compared to Atheists.

[scott]

And, although I feel I should not have to say this, when I say "I define" something... it isn't to ascribe my own definitions to something - it is to make it clear what it is I am refering to, like academic shorthand.

[scott]

I'm more concerned about making sure I 'pass' the test that is my life as this one is gauged by GOD's standard... If I succeed at this, I can assure you that I wouldn't end up in jail either...

I don't know if the athiest can claim the same since his standard of living is not predicated on a moral barometer... In fact, there is only one requirement... a lack of belief in a higher power. That's it.... welcome to the athiest club. Again, is it possible to assert whether Stalin was a 'good' or a 'bad' athiest... you're either an athiest or you're not. The good or bad modifiers are irrelevant... the same cannot be said for Christians because obviously there IS a gauge...

As I've said, hemagboa - I think it is great that people use religion to guide them. If that is what they need, then I encourage it 100%.

Whether or not you know if Atheists are capable of finding there own way to "pass the test", they are proving capable of doing it, at least if we use a couple of measures (jail, divorce). Atheists don't concern themselves with being "Good Atheists or Bad Atheists" but the proof is in the numbers that they concern themselves with being "Good people."

My desire to be a good person is driven by my own belief that all people should be treated with dignity and respect. Sorry, but I don't see how you being driven to do so by a spiritual force makes you any better. Perhaps one day I will have to face ultimate judgement for this belief, but in my mind all "Good people" are alike.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

In my estimation, both groups are EXTREMELY dangerous because they believe that no matter what happens, they have God on their side, actively participating in their coronation.

We're told that in Christ we have "a friend that sticks closer than a brother" and a Saviour "that will never leave or forsake us". These are promises in found in God-inspired scripture and spoken by Jesus Christ and I hold fast to them, how can that possibility be interpreted by you as being "EXTREMELY dangerous" pf?

they believe those on the other side will go to if they don't repent and join their religion because they read this in a book/heard this from a leader.

It's not "my religion" it's the desired plan of our Creator for all of mankind, many choose this "life" that God has promised and even more reject the will of God that allows us to be united with him in heaven. If you're serious about considering me (and the other 190 million Americans that consider themselves Bible literalists) Extremely dangerous you would seem to me to fall somewhere between mello-dramatic and delusional.



Here's a thought pf- /damnation is reserved for those who reject God and more or less give their Creator the finger and tell Him to "go to ".
For every action there's an opposite and equal reaction...





post script - I was raised in a God-loving home and never had belief in him crammed down my throat nor have I ever tried to do that to anyone else. It's a free choice.

[pussyface]

...i was comparing fundy muslims to fundy christians, not all christians (...just the one's who take the bible literally)

when you say that you belive people who don't get down with Jesus are not going to this great party with you and your friends, the muslim fundys are thinking the same thing. this has laid the groundwork for CENTURIES of conflict and still is at the forefront of us foreign policy considerations.

fundamentalism is the scourge of society, and religion for that matter.

[pussyface]

It's not "my religion" it's the desired plan of our Creator for all of mankind---joche

this is the sort of at ude im talking about that is troubling beyond belief.
like the taliban, you speak with certainty about things that are beyond our comprehension.

anyone who believes that their way is THE ONLY WAY etc. must be viewed with extreme skepticism... this is such a dangerous at ude to have.

of course, this is exactly what is going through the mind of a terrorist when they suicide bomb (they see themselves as instruments of God taking out his divine plan that they "know" is the only true faith)

[pussyface]

also, my name is pussyface not pf. im sorry if this is offensive to your Puritanical sensibilities.

[jochhejaam]

also, my name is pussyface not pf. im sorry if this is offensive to your Puritanical sensibilities.

And the question arises as to whether I should "believe that to be literally true"...<sigh> another can of worms opened by pf.





Actually much ado about nothing.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

also, my name is pussyface not pf. im sorry if this is offensive to your Puritanical sensibilities.

dude, chill, the guy was just paraphrasing. pussyface = pf, everybody gets it. Plus I have to admit, I don't blame him, because having a serious conversation with a dude whose screenname is "pussyface" is somewhat difficult

[2centsworth]

also, my name is pussyface not pf. im sorry if this is offensive to your Puritanical sensibilities.

Since you're a Mavs fan there's no doubt you're of the devil.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

It's not "my religion" it's the desired plan of our Creator for all of mankind---joche

this is the sort of at ude im talking about that is troubling beyond belief.
like the taliban, you speak with certainty about things that are beyond our comprehension.

You don't speak for me pf, it may be beyond your comprehension but the fact that I believe it should tell you that it's not beyond mine. Speaking with certainty is exactly what's required by God in order to realize the plan of salvation, eternal life and being united with God and Christ in heaven.
Believing in the big-bang theory...now that is beyond my comprehension

anyone who believes that their way is THE ONLY WAY etc. must be viewed with extreme skepticism... this is such a dangerous at ude to have.

Dangerous to who, you? How so?

Or if you think it's dangerous to me why would that bother you and cause you to label me as extremely dangerous?

of course, this is exactly what is going through the mind of a terrorist when they suicide bomb (they see themselves as instruments of God taking out his divine plan that they "know" is the only true faith)

But being a suicide bomber isn't in my mind and that renders your parallel useless.

[Phenomanul]

hegamboa, I understand perfectly what you are saying - and like I've said give me another word for people who describe themselves as Christians, and I'll use that one instead. I've made a dintinct point in not ascribing to all Christians the characteristics of those who may do wrong. But we are talking about a REAL population of people here - those who claim to be Christian. I don't think it is prudent to discount all studies done on this population (as you've said that only God can determine whether or not someone is a real Christian) just because we don't like the definition.

Yourself and more notable smeagol have chosen to state that the findings of my study are irrelevant because you feel that the group who described themselves as Christians are not representative of your definition of Christians.

However, these are REAL people sitting in REAL jails for (most of the them) committing REAL crimes. You cannot discount reality. Reality is that not everyone who claims to be Christian acts in a socially acceptable (for lack of a better term) manner. Since many people like to perscribe Christianity as the cure for all the world's ills, the study is HIGHLY relevant. If nothing else, it indicates a staggeringly poor success rate at teaching its followers (I'll define for the purposes of this conversation followers as those who say they are Christians) to live in a Christ-like manner, especially compared to Atheists. That is a FACT, and I've provided the data to back it up.

So, my question to is this...

Given that self-identified Christians are more likely to be jailed than self-identified atheists (in addition to be more likely to be divorced link), why is it that "more Christianity" is the obvious answer to more Christians, and why should a non-Christian accept this as a solution or want Christianity brought into their children's public schools? If you could ensure that the teaching of Christianity brought with it some success, then maybe I could buy into it... but as I pointed out, the failure rate (of ensuring social obedience) is high compared to Atheists.

We'll just have to agree to disagree... you raise your children to believe whatever they want to believe just as I will guide my own to find Christ... In the end it will be their choice... But I will not have any of their teacher's try and take me for some ignorant fool. The system cannot be that one-sided as I too pay school taxes....

And I'll give you a statistic that actually backs up the 'results' from your study... It is believed that more than 2/3rds of sunday morning bench-warmers throughout America have yet to really experience the life transforming process that comes when finding Christ. Yet all of these people will readily identify themselves as a Christian... This is true no matter what branch of Christianity you wish to observe...

And I kind of alluded to this earlier, but I truly believe GOD disciplines his children on earth... if that discipline includes jail time... so be it. I don't honestly believe Athiests as a whole are better than anyone else... everyone is just as bad. We have a sinful nature within us. If not for Christ's redeeming gift of salvation... we would have to end up paying the price of our own sinful works with death itself... instead we have been given a choice, through Jesus, to be atoned from our fate. <--- and yes, I mean it as the negative connotation.

[Phenomanul]

My Church stands for feeding the starving, for building homes for people who can't afford them, for providing medicine and other health care to people around the world who need it, for providing a safe place for kids in rough areas to play after school, and for providing counseling and support groups for people with many different kinds of addictions and vices. My Church has never once told me who to vote for, nor has my Church ever called for a Holy War against Muslims in our community. My Church tells us to love our enemies, which also happens to be what my Bible tells me.

And yes, my Church does work to spread the Christian message. And yes, that message includes discussions of salvation, baptism and other spiritual matters. But my Church does not exclude anyone who does not share those beliefs or chooses not to hear the message.

It is certainly regrettable that wars were fought in the name of Christianity, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian because of the sins of Christians 1,500 years ago any more than I will apologize for being white for the sins of white people 200 years ago. My Gospel doesn't tell me to storm the Middle East and massacre the unbelievers.

Likewise, it is regrettable that people use the Christian message as leverage for political or monetary gain. But my faith is not dependent on the rantings of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. My faith is not dependent on any man, it's based on the words of Jesus Christ, and if you can find any of Christ's teachings that you feel could directly lead to nuclear holocaust, I'd be interested to hear that interpretation.

Spurminator, I will again bring this to the forefront... I believe people need to see what the church is really up to... and not what they are led to believe through paranoia...

[Guru of Nothing]

And I'll give you a statistic that actually backs up the 'results' from your study... It is believed that more than 2/3rds of sunday morning bench-warmers throughout America have yet to really experience the life transforming process that comes when finding Christ.

You've already established that you believe your present day beliefs make you a better Christian than your average Catholic. Quit beating a dead horse; and don't you dare get disingenuous on me.

And I kind of alluded to this earlier, but I truly believe GOD disciplines his children on earth... if that discipline includes jail time... so be it. I don't honestly believe Athiests as a whole are better than anyone else... everyone is just as bad. We have a sinful nature within us. If not for Christ's redeeming gift of salvation... we would have to end up paying the price of our own sinful works with death itself... instead we have been given a choice, through Jesus, to be atoned from our fate. <--- and yes, I mean it as the negative connotation.

Pardon me for not paying attention closer, but, do you have children? Your credibility would grow, in my eyes, if you told me your children were inherent little sinners.

Bye

[Phenomanul]

You've already established that you believe your present day beliefs make you a better Christian than your average Catholic. Quit beating a dead horse; and don't you dare get disingenuous on me.

Talk about a drive by shooting... I may have differences with my brothers from the Catholic faith but I never said that their religion keeps them from attaining salvation... I wouldn't dare venture to suggest that 'Mother' Teresa did not make it to the Lord's presence... I truly believe she and other true followers are there... despite their denomination.

Talk to smeagol and Travis2 if you have any questions about their doctrines... they are the Catholic gurus around here... not me.

Pardon me for not paying attention closer, but, do you have children? Your credibility would grow, in my eyes, if you told me your children were inherent little sinners.

Bye

Not yet, I was speaking in a future tense..... but I do sponsor 4 children through different organizations. 2 in Honduras, 1 in Ecuador and 1 in China.

[scott]

We'll just have to agree to disagree... you raise your children to believe whatever they want to believe just as I will guide my own to find Christ... In the end it will be their choice... But I will not have any of their teacher's try and take me for some ignorant fool. The system cannot be that one-sided as I too pay school taxes....

How, prey tell, is the system "one-sided"? Are people coming into schools and saying that Christianity is bunk, God is a myth, and that kids should eat the heads of live chickens? I didn't think so. Public schools not mentioning Christianity, Islam, Judism, atheism, or any other religious topic is not "one-sided." You are still free to teach your child anything you like. So, who is taking you for a fool? It's because they support "wacky" ideas like evolution? I forgot that you have already revealed the covert atheist agenda behind evolution...

And I kind of alluded to this earlier, but I truly believe GOD disciplines his children on earth... if that discipline includes jail time... so be it. I don't honestly believe Athiests as a whole are better than anyone else... everyone is just as bad. We have a sinful nature within us. If not for Christ's redeeming gift of salvation... we would have to end up paying the price of our own sinful works with death itself... instead we have been given a choice, through Jesus, to be atoned from our fate. <--- and yes, I mean it as the negative connotation.

Your beliefs are fine. But you aren't granted the liberty to teach that to my children in their public schools. I know you feel this is some sort of moral travesty, but you are just going to have to live with it. Or maybe you can evade taxes... and go to jail... and it will be God disciplining you.

[scott]

I can't. The point is people telling you they are Christians does not make them Christ-like, which is the goal of Christianity. But I guess we are running round in circles.

Then again, smeagol - only apply the conclusions of the study to the population group it is meant to apply to - which is those people who self-identify themselves as Christian. Since by some people's account the majority of those claiming to be Christian aren't "Christ-like", the results of the study are quite relevant to our society.

[2centsworth]

Then again, smeagol - only apply the conclusions of the study to the population group it is meant to apply to - which is those people who self-identify themselves as Christian. Since by some people's account the majority of those claiming to be Christian aren't "Christ-like", the results of the study are quite relevant to our society.

relevant in the fact that the modern day evangelical message usually avoids the topic of sin, , and geniune repentance. There's a reason a lot of these churchs are bursting at the seams, it's because the message people are hearing is do whatever you want because God forgives you if you believe Jesus is Lord. You can sin with impunity.

[2centsworth]

You've already established that you believe your present day beliefs make you a better Christian than your average Catholic.

there's no better than or average. You are either a Christain according to the bible or you're not.