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btw Nash is the posterboy for poor fundamentals. He's so skilled that he gets away with it, but his passing style is so nutzo that an entire generation of kids are going to be horrible passers because they all want to copy Nash.
It's pretty telling that the name Amare didn't pop up once when defending the Suns "fundamentals"
and do you know what "fundamentals" means?
btw Nash is the posterboy for poor fundamentals. He's so skilled that he gets away with it, but his passing style is so nutzo that an entire generation of kids are going to be horrible passers because they all want to copy Nash.
BUMP... Didn't want a serious discussion to get buried under three pages of JJ/Suns minutia...I believe that it stems from similar to what you mentioned earlier. That they have more depth with ballhandlers.
OK, so based upon preseason, Nash sees that Banks is making nice strides, that Tucker has potential, and that Hill has fit right in. Despite losing Thomas, Nash sees a more athletic version in Skinner and considers it a wash.
So, he, in what I believe to be a subtle suggestion to D'Antoni, states that this teams depth is better than last season's in an attempt to get D'Antoni to play Banks, Tucker and Skinner more than he played Banks, Jones and Thomas last season.
However, I don't think it was entlrely an attempt at manipulation. based upon preseason, I can see where he thinks...
PG: Nash, Banks
SG: Bell, Barbosa
SF: Hill, Tucker
PF: Marion, Diaw
C: Amare, Skinner
...is better than...
PG: Nash
SG: Bell, Barbosa
SF: Jones
PF: Marion, Diaw
C: Amare, Thomas
Problem is that last season's rotation shouldn't have been just limited to those eight mentioned. Jalen Rose, Jumaine Jones and Banks all should have been utilized more than each was. Rose and Jones especially. Jones is a good enough of a rebounder that he could have played a Tim Thomas-type of PF role for 10 minutes or so a night. Rose was enough of a ballhandler that he should have been used as a backup PG for 15 minutes a night.
Overall I think that while Nash may actually believe this team is deeper than last years, most of it is predicated upon the belief that Hill, Tucker and an improved Banks are better ballhandlers than were an illused Rose, Banks and Jones, but I think much of his statement is based upon an attempt to sway the court of public opinion against a short rotation in an attempt to take some wear and tear off Amare, Hill and himself.
I always thought JJ was a stud. This is a legit 20+ ppg 4 reb 6 ass guy, who is not afraid to take the final shot. I was reminded of this fact when I saw him and his crew take down the Mavs in Hotlanta. Suns made a mistake letting him go.You're so full of crap it's not even funny...
At the time, the Suns weren't even at the luzery threshold. Also, one reason the Suns payroll is so screwed up is be resigning a player they received in the JJ trade (Diaw), and a player to replace JJ's backup PG skills (Banks)
Funny. Had he signed JJ for the six year, 50 million offer JJ originally came in with, then that would be an 8.5 per year average. Throw in a resigned Barbosa at 5-per and you're looking at 13.5 million per year for those two.
OK, instead, they spent 9 per on Diaw, and four per on Banks in addition to the 5 per from Barbosa, so instead of having an All-Star in JJ and a great bench player in Barbosa for 13.5 million per season, they went out and spent 18.5 million on two complimentary players and Barbosa, a star.
Yeah, it looks like they couldn't afford Johnson...
BUT, let's just assume that they resign him to the five year, 70 million that Atlanta offered. OK, so that's 14 per average, plus Barbosa's 5 per and they sit at 19 per, or basically the same amount in a worst case scenerio than they are right now with Diaw, Banks and Barbosa's 18.5 per average.
Again... You have no idea what you're talking about. You're regurgitating the Arizona Republic propaganda, a paper that came to prominence because of Jerry Colangelo's unlimited access. You see, Colangelo was both the Suns owner and a minority owner of the Republic, so the Republic has extreme loyalties to the orginization that made their sports coverage tops in the state.
I don't expect him to spend money foolishly. I expect an owner to listen to his general manager's when he says that six years, 50 million is worth a player like JJ. Had they done that, they'd bee in a much better situation, both on the court and on the books.
If jacking up a quick yet terrible shot as quickly as possible is considered fundamentally sound basketball, then the Suns are the most fundamentally sound team in NBA history.
Marion has no moves whatsoever. He relies on his athleticism, and nothing else. He has possibly the worst shooting fundamentals in the league, has no moves to free himself up for a shot, and has terrible rebounding fundamentals. He is so ridiculously athletic though, that he can still somewhat overcome those issues. But if he had the fundamentals that Duncan had, he could EASILY average about 16 boards a game. He consistently jumps either too early or too late, but he jumps so high and fast, that he can save himself regardless. His shot is utterly horrible looking, which explains why he can't make a jumper unless he is absolutely wide open. If J.J. Barea was playing up on him, and he tried to shoot a jumper, Barea could probably block it, because he shoots it so poorly. He's a very poor ball handler too.
Bell can't do crap either. It seems like unless he has a wide open lane, or an open shot, he does nothing to help the offense. He can't drive without losing control of the ball, and his defense is very dirty. Suns fans should NEVER call Bruce Bowen dirty. Bowen does do a few dirty things, but not with malice, the way Bell does. Bowen will never purposely clothesline a guy just because he is getting his ass owned time after time, the way Bell did to Kobe. I don't consider pushing and tripping people to be good defense. Bell can't handle the ball for crap either.
Stoudemire and Diaw aren't bad fundamentally, but aren't impressive in any way either. Stoudemire also relies too much on his incredible athleticism, and might possibly be the worst defensive starting center in the league, which makes no sense considering how athletic he is, but he's not an impressive rebounder, and not a good defender. He also gets owned by strong, physical centers, because he relies so much on athleticism. Diaw to me just seems like he doesn't really do crap. He does some nice things here and there, but for the most part, his contributions are completely empty. From every game I've seen with him, the times that they need him to step up, he doesn't.
IMO, Nash has some nice fundamentals offensively. He has a very nice jumpshot, and his passing is absolutely superb. I really like the way he uses english on the ball to get just the right kinds of spin. As mono said, he does a lot of things that really are not typically considered smart plays, but at the same time, hes so damn good, that he can pull it off, so I'm not going to knock on him for that, because that is what makes him so freaking good, but I personally don't feel that he has bad offensive fundamentals whatsoever. But don't even get me started on defense...
Either way, all teams are going to have players that have great fundamentals, and have poor fundamentals. But I was speaking more in terms of team fundamentals. Trying to get a shot up 8 seconds or earlier in your possession is NOT good team fundamentals. Not crashing the boards and not playing defense is not good team fundamentals. Playing an outside-in style of offense, basing your success on the jumpshot is not good team fundamentals. All those things are complete opposites of what the Spurs, who are a model of fundamentally sound basketball, do.
Phoenix isn't Golden State. Most of our shots are "good" shots, hence why we always shoot a very high percentage each season. Just because it's quick doesn't mean that it isn't fundamentally sound. In fact an offense based on free flowing offense and ball movement is what basketball originated as, and how it was espoused by John Wooden.
Shawn relies on his athleticism alot, but so do many players. Just because he doesn't have soft hands doesn't mean he's a bad player. He's a great defender, and his absolutely phenomenal hustle.
Raja is a very good man on defender. Just because he doesn't have the speed or the hands to be a successful slasher doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with his game, or that it's somehow fundamentally unsound. He plays with a great intensity, has a very good shot, and knows how to position himself on defense and on offense.
And there's no way STAT's the worst defensive starting center in the league. Eddy Curry's fat ass says o. And Amare hardly gets "owned" by the strong physical guys. If anything the bigger guys are easier for him to get his shot off and blow right by. He struggles with really athletic players who can stay in front of him.
Diaw has very good fundamentals. He has a decent jump shot, good post moves, gets position, sees the floor well, and makes the extra pass. He's incredibly versatile, but I agree, he needs to work on his at ude and intensity.
The problem with Nash's defense is that he just doesn't have the speed or athleticism to keep up with alot of the really fast guards. He tries hard and he's in good position (hence the ridiculous amount of charges taken), but he can't stay in front of alot of point guards.
Wooden also espoused set shots and peach baskets.
No, Phoenix isn't quite as bad as Golden State, but more often than not, they shoot a quick jumper, instead of going for the higher percentage shot in the paint, which is not smart basketball. A team that bases their offense off the jumpshot NEVER wins a le. Never has worked, and never will, especially in this era.
I never said he's a bad player. I simply said he has piss poor fundamentals.
Again, I never said Raja Bell is not a good player. I said that he doesn't have very good basketball fundamentals. He is not a smart offensive player, and his defense is based too much on trying to intimidate the opponent with cheap shots and dirty fouls, instead of just staying in front of his man.
I never said he is the worst. I said he is one of the worst. And I will take Curry's defense any day, because although he is lazy, he is strong, tall, and physical. Stoudemire is not particularly strong, is short for a center, and is not a physical defender at all. Oh yea, and he is equally as lazy.
Andrew Bynum and Kwame Brown says hi.
He also never gets low, has poor lateral footwork and movement, and is lazy as .
I started to respond to this last night, but my internet crashed in the middle of my composition and I didn't really feel like starting over again. I'll try to find some time today to respond to your post, JMark. I appreciate your willingness to engage me in discussion rather than a back-and-forth filled with name-calling.
shut up, Bavetta... bet I could train a dog to beat you in a race
Dude...you are so way off base its comical.Wooden also espoused set shots and peach baskets.
Just because he doesn't coach anymore or is not on SportsCenter, doesn't mean he was not a good coach.
*cough*cough*toomuchporn*cough.I started to respond to this last night, but my internet crashed in the middle of my composition and I didn't really feel like starting over again. I'll try to find some time today to respond to your post, JMark. I appreciate your willingness to engage me in discussion rather than a back-and-forth filled with name-calling.
While your at it, why don't you figure out which players who were banished to the end of D'Antoni's bench ever had a chance in this league.
and there you go...you got exactly what i was going for yet still decided to take it seriously.
You got me.and there you go...you got exactly what i was going for yet still decided to take it seriously..
One of the problems with the written word, you can't always tell the intent of the writer.
Well played.
Of course I understand what "fundamentals" means. That's why I first mentioned Nash. He's won 2 MVP awards because voters recognized his mastery of the fundamentals of the game. That's why he won the All-Star weekend Skills Challenge, for example. Believe it or not, San Antonio doesn't have a monopoly on the word.It's pretty telling that the name Amare didn't pop up once when defending the Suns "fundamentals"
and do you know what "fundamentals" means?
Yup.
Stats don't lie. The Suns are a gimmick:
Defense wins championships:
Rank in defensive EFG% of every NBA champion since the ABA/NBA merger in 76-77:
06-07: San Antonio 2nd
05-06: Miami 10th
04-05: San Antonio 1st
03-04: Detroit 2nd
02-03: San Antonio 2nd
01-02: LA Lakers 2nd
00-01: LA Lakers 13th
99-00: LA Lakers 1st
98-99: San Antonio 1st
97-98: Chicago 5th
96-97: Chicago 3rd
95-96: Chicago 6th
94-95: Houston 7th
93-94: Houston 3rd
92-93: Chicago 15th
91-92: Chicago 9th
90-91: Chicago 13th
89-90: Detroit 1st
88-89: Detroit 2nd
87-88: LA Lakers 9th
86-87: LA Lakers 6th
85-86: Boston 1st
84-85: LA Lakers 5th
83-84: Boston 2nd
82-83: Philadelphia 4th
81-82: LA Lakers 10th
80-81: Boston 3rd
79-80: LA Lakers 7th
78-79: Seattle 1st
77-78: Washington 10th
76-77: Portland 7th
Average Rank: 5.4
Phoenix ranked 12th last year in EFG%. So in the last 30 years, only three teams have finished the year with a worse EFG% and won the le. Twice it was the Bulls during their first 3-peat and the 00-01 Lakers who steamrolled through the Playoffs, losing only one game. The S0ns don't have a dominant guard like MJ/Kobe or a HOF big like Shaq to get away with a mediocre defense. Nor, do they have a 9 time champ like Phil Jackson coaching them. Considering how badly the Lakers frontcourt dominated the S0ns the other day, I'd say their chances aren't looking very good. Making some of the worst trades of all time doesn't help matters either. Giving away picks to trade away KThomas or losing JJ is going to hurt them in the long run.
Nash winning the MVP award was a joke. Winning it a second time cemented him as the most overrated player in NBA history. Thanks to Steve Trash the MVP award is forever tainted with his mediocrity. The sports journalists(most of whom are Caucasian) obviously selected him based on skin color and not on playing ability. The only way that Canadian piece of s can redeem himself is if he gives the MVPs back to their rightful owners(Shaq, Kobe/Lebron).
Nash defines the word gimmick. The Mavs got better after he left. Dirk got better after he left. Joe Johnson got better after he left the S0ns. If anything, Steve Nash holds back players from realizing their true potential while also holding back teams from being true contenders. Players like Thomas, Payton, Stockton, and Kidd fit your definition better than Nash ever could. At least they led their respective teams to the Finals instead of whining/flopping their way to an early exit like Nash.
You are a ing jackass. Just thought I would point it out to you. Oh, and by the way, finishing 12th in EFG is pretty damn good for a team that DOMINATED EVERY OFFENSIVE CATEGORY.
Thats great. Unfortunately they still didn't and don't play enough defense or rebound the ball well enough to win.
lol, self-ownage
Thank you for confirming that the S0ns are just a modern version of the '82 Nuggets.
12th means that the Suns defense is more comparable to teams like the Nets and Raptors than to the likes of the Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Cavs, Bulls, etc. Pretty obvious why Nash's S0ns never have and never will reach the Finals when you consider this fact.
Exactly my point. If your team was willing to pony up max dollar , franchise player tipe of money, for a flawed player like Marion, then why went cheap with a superstar type of player in Johnson -albeit a minor superstar one ?
Why didn't your team make the right call back then, ship the overpaid Marion and pay 50 mil US$ for Johnson's extension, like what JMJ has suggested ? Is that a stupidity that might cost your team championship or what ? Can you imagine the SPurs went cheap with Manu in 2004, would the Spurs have been able to get their 2005 championship without Manu ?
A "flawed player like Marion"? Are you serious? WTF man? What does a guy have to do to be perfect in your book? The dude is a total stat monster, 2nd only to Garnett. Every year. Every player is "flawed" in some way. Nobody is perfect. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Even your beloved Spurs players. Period. Don't be an idiot and trash on Marion because he's not God.
Marion's a great garbage play/basket player, but not that great to command the kinda salary that he got right now, especially when you use it as the excuse of why your team not resigning Joe Johnson in the summer of 2004. Is he the type of superstar who can create his own shot ? Play clutchfully in the dying minutes ? That's the kinda demands that a max player should provide symmetricly to the salary that he commands.
Dennis Rodman was a flawed player, does that make him any less of a great defender ? Up to a point, Dirk Nowitzki is rather flawed as a 7 footer jumpshooting big, does that make him less than worthy as an MVP ? A flaw is a flaw, shouldn't be taken out of context as an effort of mockering or belittling any player, when the fact is THERE.
I might not know all the nuances of the Suns team, but i think i'm not that idiot to understand what kinda silly decision of not giving that 50 mil US$ extension for JJ in that fateful summer 2004, and what kinda impact it might have over your team championship aspiration in the last 2 seasons & this one. I engage in the discussion in the polite manner of showing my opinion in my OWN TEAM forum, who the are you policing this forum like it belongs to your a$$ ??
Ok. I see where you're coming from. It's about the money. I agree that he's overpaid, but not by a heck of a lot. Marion is a great player, one of the best in the league. That stuff about how he can't create his own shot ... how would anyone really know? He rarely has to, because he's got Nash feeding him the ball. I've seen him dribble, make a move, and get by a defender for a shot. The thing is, in the Suns system, dribbling it around and trying to take a defender one-on-one is discouraged.
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