Intelligent design isn't science

[Phenomanul]

[B]
Think outside of the box. That's what ign science is about.
Not being a re and sayign "drrrr i guess god is responsible duuuhhhh"

BTW, hegamboa, i agree alot of science is motivated by money and not progress of the human race, but there is also some that is motivated by progress too. Quantum Physics, early Space Exploration come to mind.

How's this for your "outside-the-box" thinking...

Quantum Physics ---> Devoloped for War <--- yeah, really progressive.

Early Space Exploration ---> Developed for "Cold War" Supremacy Bragging Rights <--- in the name of mankind.... right.

Just acknowledge the fact that the "motive" behind 'organized religion' is not about hindering scientific progress. That is where you presumptously, and erroneously claim that this has been the agenda all along.... <--- that thought alone is preposterous....

I've repeatedly stated that scientific endeavors only reveal more about GOD's creation and about his nature. We should never stop studying our world or the universe we live in.

Geeesh and you were the one complaining about having someone "presume to know what you were thinking and saying"... the whole, "Extra Stout is putting words in my mouth" rant a couple of posts back.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

How's this for your "outside-the-box" thinking...

Quantum Physics ---> Devoloped for War <--- yeah, really progressive.

Early Space Exploration ---> Developed for "Cold War" Supremacy Bragging Rights <--- in the name of mankind.... right.

Just acknowledge the fact that the "motive" behind 'organized religion' is not about hindering scientific progress. That is where you presumptously, and erroneously claim that this has been the agenda all along.... <--- that thought alone is preposterous....

I've repeatedly stated that scientific endeavors only reveal more about GOD's creation and about his nature. We should never stop studying our world or the universe we live in.

Geeesh and you were the one complaining about having someone "presume to know what you were thinking and saying"... the whole, "Extra Stout is putting words in my mouth" rant a couple of posts back.

Quantum physics and space exploration was not solely motivated by money. JFK told the american public it was about advancing humankind. Also, I fail to realize how discovering the nature of the smallest particle of reality advances a war effort. Quantum physics is not limited to atomic bombs.

I guess Stephen Hawking is secretly paid off by private interest groups to advance String Theory too?


I never said religion was always trying to hinder progress. Obviously it does many great things. Advocates of ID are not against progress, per se, they're just too stupid to realize if their agenda succeeded that it would impede progress.

What I am saying is that an agenda to tell the children of our nation that God created the universe and that this idea is scientifically is ing stupid and will hinder progress.

I did see how you said you're all for progress and what not, but all along the way you're carrying your little "god" token with you.


If we say God created the universe and that is scientifically valid, then what point is there in discovering more as you say? In fact, isn't that against the teachings of the common american christian god? By probing deeper and deeper into the origin of the universe after we (hypothetically) accepted ID as scientifically valid, aren't we just doubting him?

Religion does not belong in schools and has no part in science as of today.

[Extra Stout]

Religion does not belong in schools and has no part in science as of today.

Religion, with as significant a role as it has played in the history of civilization, certainly has a place in the schools.

How does one teach American history without explaining why the Pilgrims came? Or who the Quakers were? How does one teach world history without addressing the spread of the great religions? How can one adequately cover social studies without explaining at least cursorily the religious beliefs of the nation, or of the world? How does one teach British literature without covering the King James Bible?

Of course religion belongs in schools. What doesn't belong is proselytizing.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

ack, yeah you're right, as an aid to history, yeah, religion does make sense in schools.

But Proselytizing definitely has no place. And that's what ID is all about, to me.

[Phenomanul]

Your "back pedaling" is alarming and/or you are too stubborn to admit anything...

Quantum physics and space exploration was not solely motivated by money. JFK told the american public it was about advancing humankind.

What else was he supposed to say???? "We will be the first to the Moon to kick the commies ass...."

Also, I fail to realize how discovering the nature of the smallest particle of reality advances a war effort. Quantum physics is not limited to atomic bombs.

While quantum physics became its own field a decade before the war effort... (the axioms defining the field were published in 1936 by Birkhoff and Von Neumann) it sprung into life the minute government grants flowed into their research accounts... Oh BTW they were working for the military... to think that the greatest leaps in this field were not made to ultimately produce the package on the "Enola Gay's" cargo belly would be naive.

The field was further developed during the 'cold war'.

I guess Stephen Hawking is secretly paid off by private interest groups to advance String Theory too?

Are you being thickheaded on purpose??? I'm not opposed to the development of theories that describe our world...

I never said religion was always trying to hinder progress. Obviously it does many great things. Advocates of ID are not against progress, per sé, they're just too stupid to realize if their agenda succeeded that it would impede progress.

YOU are already assuming that this would be the case... and it is strictly your opinion, nothing else.

What I am saying is that an agenda to tell the children of our nation that God created the universe and that this idea is scientific is ing stupid and will hinder progress.

I've also stated repeatedly that the question will definitely be raised but that the answer does not have to be assumed nor is it 'scientifically' obtainable... the teacher would tell the students that very same phrase and let the students make up their own minds... given the flaws to the unguided origins of "evolution." Instead they are crammed evolution down their throats to the point where they defend it as if it were blasphemous to question it.

I did see how you said you're all for progress and what not, but all along the way you're carrying your little "god" token with you.

What, now I'm the one with the covert agenda??? They are my beliefs... plain and simple. Teaching ID does not impose my religion on anyone else...

If we say God created the universe and that is scientifically valid, then what point is there in discovering more as you say? In fact, isn't that against the teachings of the common american christian god? By probing deeper and deeper into the origin of the universe after we (hypothetically) accepted ID as scientifically valid, aren't we just doubting him?

Religion does not belong in schools and has no part in science as of today.

?????

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It just doesn't make sense to me to say you're all for progress, then advocating ID to young kids.

It's not my fault if you think JFK lied. Actually, I think the space explorations did plenty to advance our race. Don't you? Alot of science is done with other reasons besides money, even if money is a reason. You quickly dismissed string theory but its a good example, which is why i had mentioned it.

I don't think you have a covert agenda. But I'm not debating with you keeping my beliefs about god and his miracles and saints and apostles in little frames next to my computer. I can keep that seperate from the field of science. And only because we've still yet to find a compelling scientific study or peice of evidence that supports ID.


I don't know what schools you went to. But I remember first hearing about evolution probably in jr high. I do remember it being called a theory. And I remember learning in about 3rd grade that a theory is not a law.

I don't think it was hard for my class or classes of children today to apply the fact that evoultion is presented as a "theory" and realize its just that. A theory.

But holes within this theory do not give a green light to ID. No matter how bad you want it to. It just doesn't work that way.



----
also, you have said nothing about the fact that we, right here, in this blog alone, can come up with countless other explanations for the origin of hte universe, with just as much credibility as ID. Giant Spaghetti Monster is the most popular.

Why aren't these taught in school too?

[Phenomanul]

It just doesn't make sense to me to say you're all for progress, then advocating ID to young kids.

It's not my fault if you think JFK lied. Actually, I think the space explorations did plenty to advance our race. Don't you? Alot of science is done with other reasons besides money, even if money is a reason. You quickly dismissed string theory but its a good example, which is why i had mentioned it.

I don't think you have a covert agenda. But I'm not debating with you keeping my beliefs about god and his miracles and saints and apostles in little frames next to my computer. I can keep that seperate from the field of science. And only because we've still yet to find a compelling scientific study or peice of evidence that supports ID.


I don't know what schools you went to. But I remember first hearing about evolution probably in jr high. I do remember it being called a theory. And I remember learning in about 3rd grade that a theory is not a law.

I don't think it was hard for my class or classes of children today to apply the fact that evoultion is presented as a "theory" and realize its just that. A theory.

But holes within this theory do not give a green light to ID. No matter how bad you want it to. It just doesn't work that way.



----
also, you have said nothing about the fact that we, right here, in this blog alone, can come up with countless other explanations for the origin of hte universe, with just as much credibility as ID. Giant Spaghetti Monster is the most popular.

Why aren't these taught in school too?

^^ minus your last paragraph, that right there was a civilized response. ala' Solid D... no putting words in my mouth or going off on rants calling people stupid... the notions "f***ing re ed"... "I'm going to ban myself and tatoo myself"... etc...

Our world is comprised of many views, the fight against intolerance is one of the liberal calling cards, you might not agree with another viewpoint... but that's just it... it ends there. YOU shouldn't have to insult others views to try and make points.

[Phenomanul]

BTW I'm not suggesting JFK lied... He just simply said what was "politically correct."

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Why dismiss the last paragraph? Do you think the spaghetti monster is stupid?

[Phenomanul]

Why dismiss the last paragraph? Do you think the spaghetti monster is stupid?

It was a hyperbole parody meant to dismiss Intelligent Design... GOD may seem like fiction to you... but I don't expect to run into Frodo Baggins on my way to work.

In ways most don't accept... people do actually experience GOD in their lives. Can it be proven??? That lie detector test developed at MIT suggested that 'religious' people were not lying when referencing GOD. But most would immediately dismiss that as a forged delusional state anyways...

Skeptics will remain skeptics no matter what one says....

[Cant_Be_Faded]

But lie detectors don't really detect lies they detect what the person subjectively believes as fact. Naturally, I bet some people can pass lie detectors who are crazy to us but think they got anal probed by Martians.

If half of the nation suddenly converted to the Church of the Giant Spaghetti Monster, you better beleive there would be a Spaghetti-ite version of you, saying the same things you've said, but all in the name of his faith and his version of how the universe was created.

[mookie2001]

the jam band spaghetti string incendent?

[Guru of Nothing]

... people do actually experience GOD in their lives.

And most of them are not Christians. You do realize this?

Sorry if my question is out of context, mindfulness (in threads like these) is not one of my better qualities.

It's interesting to note that ID has no legs whatsoever without the implicit endorsement of millions of EASILY persuadable people. NONE! ... well, that's my opinion, anyway.

ID, as it is being presented to the masses, is borne out of reaction.

Majoritarianism is weak - and that's what this is all about, whether or not you wish to acknowledge it.

[Phenomanul]

And most of them are not Christians. You do realize this?

Yeah I'd like to see your 'source'... but I doubt your rear end has any credibility whatsoever. No.. seriously ^^ your comment was highly opinionated. I mean what sort of study could even determine whether.... sigh nevermind.

Sorry if my question is out of context, mindfulness (in threads like these) is not one of my better qualities.

It's interesting to note that ID has no legs whatsoever without the implicit endorsement of millions of EASILY persuadable people. NONE! ... well, that's my opinion, anyway.

You could replace "ID" in that sentence with "evolution" and it would have the same validity.... Again, if you believe you descended from apes, that's your perrogative.

ID, as it is being presented to the masses, is borne out of reaction.

Majoritarianism is weak - and that's what this is all about, whether or not you wish to acknowledge it.

You do realize that "evolution" is the "widely accepted" theory ... Don't hurt your own argument there....

[Guru of Nothing]

And most of them are not Christians. You do realize this?

Yeah I'd like to see your 'source'... but I doubt your rear end has any credibility whatsoever. No.. seriously ^^ your comment was highly opinionated. I mean what sort of study could even determine whether.... sigh nevermind.

Just a bad conclusion on my part (I guess), but seriously, do you believe that the majority of believers in God are Christian? Are you excluding the residents of China and India, when defending the "credibility of your rear end?"

You could replace "ID" in that sentence with "evolution" and it would have the same validity.... Again, if you believe you descended from apes, that's your perrogative.

Please pay attention. I have NEVER stated that I believe that I descended from apes - nor have I even remotely implied it. Sadly, I associate your melodramatics with the typical IDer.

You do realize that "evolution" is the "widely accepted" theory ... Don't hurt your own argument there....

Actually, I don't realize that. In the overall scheme of things, It's not important to me to sort out "God's" work during my brief existence here on Earth.

Were I a sincere Christian, engaging in religious/political pissing contests would be the FURTHEST thing from my mind. ... Sincerely ... But that's just me.

[Phenomanul]

Just a bad conclusion on my part (I guess), but seriously, do you believe that the majority of believers in God are Christian? Are you excluding the residents of China and India, when defending the "credibility of your rear end?"



Please pay attention. I have NEVER stated that I believe that I descended from apes - nor have I even remotely implied it. Sadly, I associate your melodramatics with the typical IDer.



Actually, I don't realize that. In the overall scheme of things, It's not important to me to sort out "God's" work during my brief existence here on Earth.

Were I a sincere Christian, engaging in religious/political pissing contests would be the FURTHEST thing from my mind. ... Sincerely ... But that's just me.

Forgive me for my response.... answering CBF and some of the other instigators has made me a bit "jumpy"...

And although I am aware of other religions, only Judaism, Islam and Cristianity believe in 'GOD' as the creator of Life and the Universe. As for the conclusion well -- only GOD knows those who have truly embraced Him. But I certainly don't claim to know 'who' specifically...

Look the only thing I know is that I have studied the subject of evolution extensively from incongruencies in the fossil record to implications in fields such as anthropology, biology, astronomy, geology, physics, and math.

Evolution, as taught, is severely flawed on many levels. People have entered this thread at sporadic junctures and assume that some 'wiseass' comment will 'beyond shadow of a doubt' put the arguments behind ID to death... I only wish they could upload my brain to see evolution in the context of the countless facts and observations I have gathered to paint the 'picture' that I 'see'...

Not to sound condescending, but this 'picture' is larger for me than for most other people... with the exception of a few posters of course. The fact that I happen to reconcile my religious beliefs with my understanding of this world is supported again by my continued study of the issues but irrelevant in my advocacy of having ID taught at school alongside the theory of evolution. At least 3 posters have questioned said stance... and well... I simply don't care if they believe me or not anymore...

As to the whole "religious/political pissing contests" comment... Please... spare me the derrisive tone.... I typically stayed out of religious topics simply becuase the moment I stated my position I became the target of insults from many posters 'who claimed to know what organized religion was about' and therefore felt en led to judge my views... I've always stated that a relationship with GOD was personal and was reflected in how one conducted their life.... Obviously people will always point to the 'wayward' sheep in order to cast judgement on a religion's beliefs, and so justify their own reluctance to believe.... whatever...

I restrained myself from posting in the political/club forums for a little over a year on such topics but I simply can't take a 'silent' stance anymore... People have bashed and dogged 'religion' like it were a disease... I've always respected the fact that people are en led to their own opionions... I just couldn't sit there, however and constantly read that all of 'us' [believers] were ignorant, naive, dogmatic, illogical, and stupid... Some of us, are grounded on many more principles than on what people feed us.

Again, whatever.

[Guru of Nothing]

And although I am aware of other religions, only Judaism, Islam and Cristianity believe in 'GOD' as the creator of Life and the Universe.

Yeah whatever; and some Christians think that other Christians are full of for their beliefs. The only constant I see in believers in God is argument and fighting.

Evolution, as taught, is severely flawed on many levels. People have entered this thread at sporadic junctures and assume that some 'wiseass' comment will 'beyond shadow of a doubt' put the arguments behind ID to death... I only wish they could upload my brain to see evolution in the context of the countless facts and observations I have gathered to paint the 'picture' that I 'see'...

Pot meet kettle. Sad you wish that everyone else could upload your brain, as opposed to you uploading someone else's.

Not to sound condescending, but this 'picture' is larger for me than for most other people... with the exception of a few posters of course.

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I typically stayed out of religious topics simply becuase the moment I stated my position I became the target of insults from many posters 'who claimed to know what organized religion was about' and therefore felt en led to judge my views...

Actually, at first, you stated your position eloquently. Lately you've been an asshole (much like me, I know)

People have bashed and dogged 'religion' like it were a disease...

Because for many, religion is a disease. Don't shoot the messengers.

That's all I have to say. Please continue butting heads with someone else.

[Phenomanul]

I think you've chosen to ignore the essence of a post in favor of dissecting a stated set of opinions... which will always be just that... opinions. Let me try again.

Yeah whatever; and some Christians think that other Christians are full of for their beliefs. The only constant I see in believers in God is argument and fighting.

I agree with you on this one.... it's a rather unfortunate but sad fact.... Again, we humans are too complex...

Pot meet kettle. Sad you wish that everyone else could upload your brain, as opposed to you uploading someone else's.

Pish posh... your selective quote left out the fact that I mentioned I continually study the matter... i.e. other peoples views... that is what learning is about no???

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yeah... laugh it up... I was simply stating that some people have come at me with weak arguments as if they were adding any value to the thread, such as, "I can't speak to anyone who thinks humans lived alongside Dinosaurs...", "or people that think this way should die.."

More notoriously, even when certain irreconcilable differences are brought up they choose to ignore them to say something like, "well the majority of the scientific community cannot be wrong." In short, rather than addressing the 'evolutionary' gap... they start bashing again.

Actually, at first, you stated your position eloquently. Lately you've been an asshole (much like me, I know)

NO... actually I took about a year before I openly stated my Christian beliefs... and about eight or nine months passed [from the time I signed up on SpursTalk] before my schoolastic background was known... hey, I don't like being called a liar or for that matter have someone question my 'credibility'..... call it a pet peeve... we all have them.

As for my at ute change.... Yes, again I've been more defensive lately.... But what else am I supposed to do?? Sit there and let others mock my beliefs because they are trying to make points with erroneous and opinionated arguments??? Some of those arguments have been rather inflammatory too... And when they get personal... no offense, but I have to stand up for my self... forum 'battles' aren't exactly subjected to the 'turn the other cheek' concept you know... besides I don't exactly curse them or insult them directly... I may call an argument 'ignorant' or 'weak' without having to explicitly say that the poster was 'stupid' or 'ignorant' themselves.

Also, I have always admitted whenever someone else has pointed out my errors (on a factual basis as opposed to an opionated one).....

If you feel I have wronged you, forgive me and my impatience.... (I think that stems from the fact that short 'brash' comments are easier to write than writing the longer more elaborate responses)

Because for many, religion is a disease. Don't shoot the messengers.

That's all I have to say. Please continue butting heads with someone else.

I'm not exactly trying to butt heads with you... I'm just trying to defend my viewpoint.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

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The Guru has made this a classic thread.

[jochhejaam]

The Guru has made this a classic thread.

You're laughing your ass off because someone posted "lol" 500 times and you consider the dumbing down of Intelligent Design discussion "classic"?

ooooookay

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Like a coin, there are two sides to every encounter, and The Guru's response was to a quote he deemed LOL-able. After taking the 5 seconds to read the posts, I thought so too.

Dumbing down? Maybe. Acceptable response to a funny ass quote? Yes.

[Phenomanul]

Like a coin, there are two sides to every encounter, and The Guru's response was to a quote he deemed LOL-able. After taking the 5 seconds to read the posts, I thought so too.

Dumbing down? Maybe. Acceptable response to a funny ass quote? Yes.

Funny how I consider you as one of the ones who can't see the "bigger picture"

Should I be laughing at you?????

Would it help if I put 100 smilie faces??

For you this one seems more appropriate...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

it was just funny because you said 'not to be condescending'...

i actually lol'ed when i first read that so when i read The Guru it was even funnier

[Phenomanul]

it was just funny because you said 'not to be condescending'...

i actually lol'ed when i first read that so when i read The Guru it was even funnier

And I meant it.... to wish someone see things in one's context does not mean they will adopt the same viewpoint. It just means that I happen to retain more facts than most....

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It just means that I happen to retaim more facts than most....

oh, most assuredly you do, and that is not condesending at all, which is why the Guru did not laugh his ass off when he read that quote