IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[MadDog73]

Drob pulled his strings to make sure his buddy AJ had a job as something other than a ballboy.

Any chance David will show up in Dallas wearing AJ's number?

[whottt]

Again, we have yet to define what makes a player the "best." whottt seems to totally ignore team play, and that's a problem with his analysis.
).

Ohhhhhhhhhh no you didn't....

whottt is not the one ignorning team play...whottt is the one placing a premium on team play.

Ignoring team play is when you say player X is better than player Y because player X won a championship.

That completely ignores team play, it completely fails to take into account the quality of the other players on the teams involved, their impact, and contribution to the victory.

No...I am definitely taking team play into account, and I am definitely making note of the contributions of other players.

You and many others are doing it selectively to justify your rankings, choosing to placing an emphasis on it when you backs up your selection, discounting it when it doesn't, and using it as a penalty still other times.


David Robinson is getting penalized for winning championships, his contributions are being discounted, and others are being judged completely by them...even when David was a part of them.


Case in point...how many of the guys on the original list were teamates...only 2. Duncan and Robinson...it's a penalty for David and a non factor for Duncan, the championship counts nothng in David's favor and everything in Duncan's.

I don't have the double standard here, I am not ignoring the teamates, my rankings aren't schizophrenic depending on which player I like the best, even though readily admit which I do like the best.

It's you guys that are selectively applying it like a bunch of monkeys using that criteria any number of random and incomprehensible ways to justify your opinion.

And furthermore...I am the one that has attempted to use some kind of objective ranking system. Every body else is using their ass. les count for some guys not for others, it counts against David that Duncan was his teamate, it doesn't count against Duncan though, Shaq's teamates are ignored as are Hakeem's.


Sorry...but my rankings are somewhat coherent.

[DirkAB]

So not only are you ignorant of David Robinson's career...you are also ignorant of the history of bad blood between Shaq and the Spurs...not to mention seemingly ignorant of the history of bad blood between Shaq and your own purported team.


The more you type, the stupider you look.

So because there is bad blood between the Spurs and Shaq, that means you can't give him respect and accurately rank his place in history? So again, you are a Shaq hater and a Robinson jocker. How is that supposed to make your arguement anymore convincing? Oh, that's right it doesn't, it makes it a joke.

[MadDog73]

Seriously, why you make the assumption that Duncan will retire with more rings, that is just bias. You have to make it to the finals to get rings, and the last I checked somebody is in the finals right now with a great shot at #4.

Did you watch the game last night? Shaq probably cost them that game, with all those missed foul shots, and dropping the ball. , Antoine Walker basically had the same stat line!

I make the assumption, because I can't see Shaq playing too many more years. If you think Tim is on the decline after one of his best post-seasons ever, you have another thing coming.

But, who the knows. I like Tim's chances, and if that's bias, so be it.

BTW, BAkirD, who do you think is the best player this year: Shaq or Tim?

[DirkAB]

Did you watch the game last night? Shaq probably cost them that game, with all those missed foul shots, and dropping the ball. , Antoine Walker basically had the same stat line!

I make the assumption, because I can't see Shaq playing too many more years. If you think Tim is on the decline after one of his best post-seasons ever, you have another thing coming.

But, who the knows. I like Tim's chances, and if that's bias, so be it.

BTW, BAkirD, who do you think is the best player this year: Shaq or Tim?

Of course Duncan is better this year, even on a down year.

So the Heat lost game 1 and you are writting them off for the series? Nice.

[whottt]

So because there is bad blood between the Spurs and Shaq, that means you can't give him respect and accurately rank his place in history? So again, you are a Shaq hater and a Robinson jocker. How is that supposed to make your arguement anymore convincing? Oh, that's right it doesn't, it makes it a joke.

Oh I'll rank his place in history, Drob kicked his his ass head to head, to 6-1 mark, he has winning record against him in the playoffs, he won 2 les going through him...

His best scoring season is better
His best block season is better
Assists
Steals
All NBA Defensive teams


Lead the league in blocks..did Shaq? No.
Lead the league in rebounds...did Shaq? No.
Lead the league in scoring? Did Shaq? Yeah...but David dropped 71 points in a ing game or else Shaq would have had 2.

Did Shaq ever finish in the top 5 in blocks boards and steals? No he did not.

Has Shaq ever lead a single post season in blocks and rebounds? No he has not.

So what the has Shaq done? Won 1 more le with a 6 time champion coach and a 2 guard people compare to Jordan? In the Leagues biggest market?


Shaq,...

[whottt]

By the way this is a Spurs board, you ing tool, this is not where you come to see Shaq get his props...you damn sure don't whine about it if he isn't.

[MadDog73]

I don't have the double standard here, I am not ignoring the teamates, my rankings aren't schizophrenic depending on which player I like the best, even though readily admit which I do like the best.

It's you guys that are selectively applying it like a bunch of monkeys using that criteria any number of random and incomprehensible ways to justify your opinion.

Damn. Well, sure, I admit I like Tim more, and that probably biases my opinion. I mean, looking at your numbers alone, Tim is worse than Patrick Ewing... there's something wrong there.

So, yeah, there are "intangibles" that I bring to bear. I mean, it is my opinion, after all, not a fact.

I respect your opinion, whottt, and in some ways agree with you that David Robinson was the best player of the 1990's. The fact that he was owned so hard by Hakeem in 1995 hurts him a bit, but it might be unfair to say Hakeem > David based on one series alone.

So, are your personal standings pretty much how the chart shows?

1. Robinson
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Duncan
6. KG

If not, why not? What other factors come into play? I'm not being snarky here, I'm really curious.

[fyatuk]

So because there is bad blood between the Spurs and Shaq, that means you can't give him respect and accurately rank his place in history? So again, you are a Shaq hater and a Robinson jocker. How is that supposed to make your arguement anymore convincing? Oh, that's right it doesn't, it makes it a joke.

You just don't give the respect Robinson deserves. The stats of their best 4 consecutive seasons are nearly the same, with Shaq having minimally better scoring and rebounding, and Robinson having much better steals and blocks. Shaq also had people who could draw defense away from him, while Robinson didn't most of the time. Look at how many people had their best years playing with Robinson.

We've already proven Robinson had a much bigger impact on his team than Shaq had on any of his.

Face it. At the very least, the argument is MUCH closer than you admit.

Shoot, Shaq couldn't put up that much better numbers after David killed his back.

[SPARKY]

I find it interesting that DRob's "soft" because he didn't win a le when he didn't have a fellow superstar as a teammate but Shaq isn't despite having not won a le without one.

[MadDog73]

Of course Duncan is better this year, even on a down year.

So the Heat lost game 1 and you are writting them off for the series? Nice.

Off topic, but when you out-rebound, out-assist and make more FGs than your opponent, hold their leading scorer to 16 points, and still lose?

That's not good. I don't know what Miami can do to win this series, but yeah, I'm officially writing them off. But I've been wrong before...

Back on topic:

If Tim > Shaq this year, and Tim is at least = Shaq during Shaq's "prime", then why isn't Tim > Shaq?

[whottt]

I already said I rank Hakeem #1...I don't see how anyone can not rank Hakeem #1.

He whipped everybodies ass head to head...not just David's, but Shaq and Ewing's too. His regular season numbers are sick, and his career numbers across the board are insane.

He's got the offense game, he's got the defensive game, he's got the post season stuff, he's got the freak single season marks, and the freak career makrs. And he won his head to head matchup statistically against just about every mofo on this list...

I hate the freaking Rockets....but there's just not much you can do about it...Hakeem's got it all, no matter what argument you use, none of the others do.

[whottt]

Something else about Shaq...Shaq's one of the worst FT shooters in NBA history...his bigtime FG% isn't as impressive when those FT%'s are factored into it. His FG% is the most impressive thing about him.

I could forgive the FT% if he was dropping 50 a game like Wilt...but he wasn't.

[MadDog73]

I already said I rank Hakeem #1...I don't see how anyone can not rank Hakeem #1.

He whipped everybodies ass head to head...not just David's, but Shaq and Ewing's too. His regular season numbers are sick, and his career numbers across the board are insane.

He's got the offense game, he's got the defensive game, he's got the post season stuff, he's got the freak single season marks, and the freak career makrs. And he won his head to head matchup statistically against just about every mofo on this list...

I hate the freaking Rockets....but there's just not much you can do about it...Hakeem's got it all, no matter what argument you use, none of the others do.

Good call. I'm inclined to agree. To add to that impressive list of accomplishments, he won 2 Finals without another All-star on his team (although he did have Big Shot Rob). Nobody else can say that.

I assume David's number 2 on your list.

Tim > Shaq? (sorry, I know I must seem like a broken record).

[whottt]

You know I really haven't thought much about Tim VS Shaq because Tim never really matched up against Shaq in their head to head matchups and because Tim is classified as a PF. I'd just have to put some thought into that before I commit to which one was better IMO.


I mean this list isn't really a comparison of C's...it's a random comparison of PF's and C"s...I mean if PF's are in it then Barkley and Malone need to be in there...

I'd just have to think about that for a while.

[whottt]

For now I'll say the one thing I am certain of...Duncan>Ewing.

[MadDog73]

For now I'll say the one thing I am certain of...Duncan>Ewing.

Thanks for that!

[DirkAB]

If Tim > Shaq this year, and Tim is at least = Shaq during Shaq's "prime", then why isn't Tim > Shaq?

I never said the bolded part. Honestly, it is hard for me to keep this discussion based soley on their prime, because it is hard to exactly pinpoint somebody's prime. Based on how Duncan played this season and his increasing injury problems, I honestly think that he may already be past his prime, but I would stupid to assume that so I don't, I just suspect. I think that it is also interesting to think about who has had the longest prime, I suppose depending on your defenition of prime, some players have longer primes. Shaq has been very dominant a good number of years out of the 14 he has played in the NBA, I don't know if I see Duncan able to the same. He very well could, we'll just have to wait and see.

[DirkAB]

By the way this is a Spurs board, you ing tool, this is not where you come to see Shaq get his props...you damn sure don't whine about it if he isn't.

You mean I shouldn't come here expecting people to try and rank people objectively? So Spurs board = Robinson better? You can't give one of the all-time greats respect, pathetic. I'm not asking anybody to like the guy, just admit what he has done.

[strangeweather]

whottt is not the one ignorning team play...whottt is the one placing a premium on team play.

Ignoring team play is when you say player X is better than player Y because player X won a championship.

That completely ignores team play, it completely fails to take into account the quality of the other players on the teams involved, their impact, and contribution to the victory.

No...I am definitely taking team play into account, and I am definitely making note of the contributions of other players.

You're going to take this as me disrespecting David, which is a shame because I frickin' loved David. I'd never lived anywhere with a basketball team or followed basketball before I moved to San Antonio in '87, and I don't know if I'd even be a basketball fan if it hadn't been for David, never mind a Spurs fan.

But here's the thing: ultimately, the legacy of David's prime, pre-injury years is disappointment. The fact that almost none of it is his fault is goddamn tragic, but it doesn't change anything. The Spurs had a lousy team around him, and the coaching wasn't much better. The fact that he got them into the playoffs every year shows just how damn good he was.

But because of the team he had around him, he never had the chance to post the accomplishments that Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan did. He never had a fair chance to prove that he could take down all comers and hoist a Finals MVP trophy. Give him Shaq's Lakers, give him the supporting cast that Hakeem or Duncan had, and I think he might have proved he was better. I'm not sure about Hakeem, but I suspect that with an equal team around him, he could have sent Duncan or Shaq packing in a 7-game series.

But we'll never know that. Like I said, it's tragic, but it's a fact.

Stats are vital if you're building a fantasy team, and they can tell you a lot about a player. But in my opinion, what someone proves they can do in an elimination game and in the road to a le tells you more.

David was a of a person, and he swallowed his pride and accepted a supporting role when Tim got here. Without even ing complaining. No way Tim has a shelf full of Finals MVP trophies without David being right there with him. But Tim is still the one with the shelf full of Finals MVP trophies.

David has a of a consolation prize: two rings. That's two more than a lot of guys: Barkley, Malone, Ewing. But he'll never be remembered as the best player on those teams. It sucks, but the fact that it sucks doesn't change anything.

[DirkAB]

I find it interesting that DRob's "soft" because he didn't win a le when he didn't have a fellow superstar as a teammate but Shaq isn't despite having not won a le without one.

Who was Hakeems fellow superstar in '94? Or how about Ewing's, ever? I don't see anybody making excuses for Ewing's supporting cast.

[MadDog73]

Who was Hakeems fellow superstar in '94?

No one, in 1994 or 95. That's why some think Hakeem was the best in his Prime (I'm beginning to be swayed that way myself).

Or how about Ewing's, ever? I don't see anybody making excuses for Ewing's supporting cast.

Hmm, you're right. Ewing is better than Shaq, too!

(Seriously, are you actually saying Patrick Ewing > David Robinson? If not, then what point are you trying to make?)

If the Knicks 1994 roster and the Rockets 1994 Roster both sucked, then obviously Hakeem > Ewing.

It would be nice if prime Robinson played against prime Ewing in the playoffs, but alas, that did not happen.

[MadDog73]

You mean I shouldn't come here expecting people to try and rank people objectively? So Spurs board = Robinson better? You can't give one of the all-time greats respect, pathetic. I'm not asking anybody to like the guy, just admit what he has done.

And we're asking you to look at Robinson objectively, not just the 2000 Robinson, but the Robinson in the 90's.

You act like only Homers or morons would think prime Robinson was better than Shaq, yet you give us no real proof that it's not true!

[DirkAB]

No one, in 1994 or 95. That's why some think Hakeem was the best in his Prime (I'm beginning to be swayed that way myself).



Hmm, you're right. Ewing is better than Shaq, too!

(Seriously, are you actually saying Patrick Ewing > David Robinson? If not, then what point are you trying to make?)

Actually Hakeem had Clyde Drexler in '95, so he had a Robin to his Batman.

As far as Ewing, he had a supporting cast as weak as Robinson's and his team was ever bit as successful until Duncan arrived. I think Robinson is better, but I think it is ridiculous how his supporting cast has taken such a large role in this debate. Why can't the same excuse be applied to both players?

[DirkAB]

You act like only Homers or morons would think prime Robinson was better than Shaq, yet you give us no real proof that it's not true!

Oh yeah, everybody claiming Robinson is better in this thread is a Homer, that is proof enough for me. Do you really think that this would even be a discussion at other boards?