WTC Steel Beams Found

[ChumpDumper]

Ok, Dan. You obviously believe all three buildings were brought down by controlled explosions after being hit by jets and burning anywhere from one to seven hours. At least one building was brought down with advance warning and full cooperation of the New York Fire Department and Police Departments, since they got all their men out of the way before the third building fell but not the first two when a few hundred died just to make it look real.

All for a fat insurance settlement for a guy who still pays $10 million a month rent for a hole in the ground. How will he buy more cruise missiles to lob at the Pentagon from his submarine?

Is this what you really believe?

[sabar]

No one is going to hear the impossible logistics of the whole thing. The amount of people you would have to keep quiet so this whole thing doesn't get uncovered is massive.

What happened to the people that saw the plane fly into the pentagon? The FBI dragged them off and killed them and their families? Where did this cruise missile come from? The government played off a pilot, and covered up an entire attack mission that would involve 20-30 people? Or did they all die too? The people in the administration? I know there's party loyalty, but the turnover rate is rather high for many positions in bureacracy. Are they all dead too? The government shut them all up? What about the sheer logistics of rigging up 3 buildings with explosives with not a single person finding out? What about when K-9 units come through checking for explosives every once in a while? Or did this all get rigged up overnight? With no one noticing? The explosives had to come from somewhere -- where are the financial records from the company this stuff from obtained from?

Sorry, this whole this is so unbelievable. There's a reason that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[Nbadan]

Ok, Dan. You obviously believe all three buildings were brought down by controlled explosions after being hit by jets and burning anywhere from one to seven hours. At least one building was brought down with advance warning and full cooperation of the New York Fire Department and Police Departments, since they got all their men out of the way before the third building fell but not the first two when a few hundred died just to make it look real.

All for a fat insurance settlement for a guy who still pays $10 million a month rent for a hole in the ground. How will he buy more cruise missiles to lob at the Pentagon from his submarine?

Is this what you really believe?

Well, I believe science, and in this case science dictates that the probability of those three buildings falling the way they did without some help is very, very low. Could it have happened? sure, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

[ChumpDumper]

What do you put your money on, Dan?

What do you think really happpened?

[Nbadan]

What do you put your money on, Dan?

What do you think really happpened?

God, we've already been through this. and I put my money in precious metals.

Plutomium, paladium and gold.

[PixelPusher]

Well, I believe science, and in this case science dictates that the probability of those three buildings falling the way they did without some help is very, very low. Could it have happened? sure, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

Too bad science doesn't believe you back.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/1227842.html

[Nbadan]

Too bad science doesn't believe you back.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/1227842.html

That Pm article has been debunked forward and back. Try again.

[sabar]

Well, I believe science, and in this case science dictates that the probability of those three buildings falling the way they did without some help is very, very low. Could it have happened? sure, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

Both the NIST and the Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE don't believe you back.

Who is more credible in the area of building collapses? Civic engineers? Or the average eye-witness?

Civic engineers or these people?

* 49% of Americans could not find New York State on a map
* 51% could not locate Pennsylvania
* 69% could not find Massachusetts
* 30% could not locate the Pacific Ocean
* 56% could not locate India
* 63% of Americans could not find England on a map.
* 16% of Americans could find Sweden
* 80% can't name their Senators

The same people that can't read maps or know current events are the basis of a massive conspiracy theory. Sorry, but the average layperson is, well, dumb.

[sabar]

Need sleep so I'm leaving with these

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/F77pentaToC.html
http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../11/bn.32.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...033108366.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...01/attack.html

Are these all fake? All these eyewitness accounts? This many people mistook a cruise missile for an aircraft?

[Nbadan]

PM is owned by the Hearst corporation, a large, mostly-republican newspaper conglomerate....

We assembled a team of reporters and researchers, including professional fact checkers and the editors of PM, and methodically analyzed all 16 conspiracy claims. We interviewed scores of engineers, aviation experts, military officials, eyewitnesses and members of the investigative teams who have held the wreckage of the attacks in their own hands. We pored over photography, maps, blueprints, aviation logs and transcripts. In every single instance, we found that the facts used by the conspiracy theorists to support their fantasies were mistaken, misunderstood, or deliberately falsified.

This sounds impressive, but the article provides no evidence to back up these claims. It provides no footnotes to source its many assertions, and despite the scores of experts listed in its final section, the article cites only a few "experts," who would themselves likely be suspects if normal criminal justice procedures were used to investigate the crime.

[ChumpDumper]

That Pm article has been debunked forward and back. Try again.

Debunked by whom?

And why is all this stuff falling faster than the building itself?


Cruise missiles?

And yes, you are a coward for not saying what you believe.

[Nbadan]

Both the NIST and the Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE don't believe you back.

Who is more credible in the area of building collapses? Civic engineers? Or the average eye-witness?

Civic engineers or these people?

* 49% of Americans could not find New York State on a map
* 51% could not locate Pennsylvania
* 69% could not find Massachusetts
* 30% could not locate the Pacific Ocean
* 56% could not locate India
* 63% of Americans could not find England on a map.
* 16% of Americans could find Sweden
* 80% can't name their Senators

The same people that can't read maps or know current events are the basis of a massive conspiracy theory. Sorry, but the average layperson is, well, dumb.

because government agencies like NIST and JEM could never be compromised.



9/11 Truth: The Bogus NIST Report & The Lingering Questions

[Nbadan]

9/11 Truth: FEMA & NIST's "Pancake Theory" is a Lie

[Nbadan]

9/11 Truth: Thermite & The Case for Controlled Demolition

[Nbadan]

and finally for tonight: 9/11 Truth: Explosive Force & Volcano-Style Pyroclastic Flow

[ChumpDumper]

What do you think really happened?

[Zombie.]

Though there are many serious questions and mysteries yet to be answered on the tragic events of September 11, 2001.

Name some!





.

.. there are also many 9/11 conspiracy arguments which have been shreddred to bits...

Which ones?

and by actual experts (Civil engineers, Mechanical engineers, Fire Chiefs, Physicists, Metallurgical gurus, Architects, etc...).

There are just as many experts saying the exzact opposite. In fact the man who was in charge of testing the metal beams when the WTC was built tried to warn the 911 commission they where off on what temperature steel starts to melt and they did not want to hear from him and he lost his job that month,

I don't understand why many of the conspiracy theorists continue to use those flawed arguments and then expect serious responses in return. In fact, many of the conspiracy arguments that initially surfaced were rash conclusions based on analyses of limited evidence, or from contextual opinions relayed from 'eye-witness' accounts - some more credible than others. They were hardly thought out, or 'irrefutable'... so even when it appears that much thought went into the formulation of an argument... key engineering principles are ignored (blatantly or ignorantly - you decide). The continued use of those arguments therefore deflates their movement and detracts our attention away from the more important issues at hand.

Until you answers some questions your just telling us what we already know.

You see I can sound like Chump Dumper also.

[=RTM=]

What do you think really happened?

Who is going to say anything when they will be accused of wearing Tin foil hats and are compared to Carlos Mancias?

You all did a great job ruining what could have been a great debate that may have had the potential of educating many.

[ChumpDumper]

Who is going to say anything when they will be accused of wearing Tin foil hats and are compared to Carlos Mancias?

Ok, I'll just call you a coward then.

You all did a great job ruining what could have been a great debate that may have had the potential of educating many.

I'm going to do all of you the greatest service in this thread.


Loose Change 2nd Edition

Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer's Guide

Read the latter while watching the former, then I'll accuse you of doing neither and never tell you what I believe because I'm sensitive like that.

[Hungry farmer]

I have been a lurker at this site for two years, and I have never seen so much bull in all my life!

[01Snake]

I have been a lurker at this site for two years, and I have never seen so much bull in all my life!

Wow! Thanks for letting us know. Now get back to lurking.

[Phenomanul]

Name some!

Did any of the terrorists pack undectectable plastic explosives in their checked in luggage that would amplify the initial impact blast?

To what extent was the protective fire-proof insulation that was installed around the steel beams in the WTC (back in the 70's no less) rendered useless as a result of the plane impact?

Did the blast of 1993 and the subsequent repairs to the structure affect the outcome of 9/11?

Did the hijackers even know that their plans would cause the WTC towers to collapse? Did they plan on it? Did they purposefully aim toward the central concrete-reinforced steel shafts?

Which ones?

For one, the whole logic that I'm supposed to swallow that our government used planes in the WTC site and then turned around to use a missile for the Pentagon.

1) The supposed evidence of a 'pod' under the plane.
Concepts ignored: general design of the aircraft, general understanding of shadows as a result of said design attributes.

2) The supposed flash of light 'prior' to impact that was used as an argument to suggest that something was fired into the building.
Concepts ignored: an understanding of the curvature of the plane's fuselage and the reflecting tendencies of a convex surface.

3) The argument that steel needs to melt to cause a collapse.
Concepts ignored: Steel only needs to be softened to lose its strength. The elastic modulus of the anistropic steel is inversely proportional to temperature due to the diminished density of the steel at elevated temperatures and due to the oxidation of its carbon content - an 'additive' that is added to steel at production mills in order to increase its strength. This oxidative mechanism readily occurs at temperatures >950 degrees Fahrenheit. Weeping butresses simply can't support the weight loads they were designed for.

4) The whole concept that buildings must fall in accordance with the accelaration due to gravity and that slower accelarations 'irrefutably' suggest a controlled demolition.
Concepts ignored: The earth also applies equal counteracting forces to the building. The weight of the falling structure eventually takes over in this scenario but its collapse velocity is initially delayed by counteracting forces running along the vertical axis of the columns in the building. Not to mention that a large chunk of the energy that was lost in the collapse does not get applied to the z vector, it also gets displaced across the x, and y vectorial planes.

There are just as many experts saying the exzact opposite. In fact the man who was in charge of testing the metal beams when the WTC was built tried to warn the 911 commission they where off on what temperature steel starts to melt and they did not want to hear from him and he lost his job that month,

See above, the steel does not have to melt. I would have fired said 'expert' myself for such a blatant disregard to the essential principles that govern his field.

Until you answers some questions you're just telling us what we already know.

You see I can sound like Chump Dumper also.

I can't answer certain questions without having been exposed to first hand evidence or data surrounding the event (such as wreckage material, or extensive review of controversial footage as analyzed from multiple angles).

What I do know is that some conspiracy allegations simply don't have any scientific credence on which to stand on. The supposed 'irrefutable' evidence is actually quite refutable - those conspiracists just don't want to listen to logic. Somehow I'm to believe that 'I'm in on it' too if I disagree with them... that's simply absurd.

Do I believe that a cover-up of other implicitly related items occurred? To that I would say yes... but by now you have to understand that this is how our government operates. The premise that our government orchestrated the tragedy, however, is highly insulting and preposterous.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Do I believe that a cover-up of other implicitly related items occurred? To that I would say yes... but by now you have to understand that this is how our government operates.

I agree with that. The only attack that I have difficult thouroghly accepting is the one on the Pentagon.

The premise that our government orchestrated the tragedy, however, is highly insulting and preposterous.

This is a world where black is not always black and white is not always white. There's too many gray areas. Why isn't all the data and evidence not made to the public. Take JFK for instance. The days of Ozzie and Harriet are far from over.

[johnsmith]

This thread is ing hilarious. Well, except for whenever Mouse posts.

[Extra Stout]

There are just as many experts saying the exzact opposite. In fact the man who was in charge of testing the metal beams when the WTC was built tried to warn the 911 commission they where off on what temperature steel starts to melt and they did not want to hear from him and he lost his job that month,

No, that man actually was not in charge of testing the metal beams. He worked in the water testing department. And he was fired for running his mouth off about a field he knew nothing about.