there's a difference between skills and fundamentals. Plaxico Burress has skills. Fundamentals? Not so much.
Steve Nash is incredibly skilled but the way he passes the ball breaks alot of the "fundamentals".
"Ooh, I'm sorry Earl Watson, am I in your way? Don't mind me, it's not like I was trying to get set defensively or properly clog the lane. Can I get you some coffee or a soft drink, anything to make you more comfortable? If there's anything you need, just let me know."
In a league with a salary cap, it's always about the money, which is where the Suns went wrong. The Suns have too much money tied up in the wrong people. Marion is grossly overpaid. He may not even be the third option on the team by the time his contract expires.
Marion is not among the best players in the league because he cannot create his own offense. How do I know? After all these years, I don't think he's just holding back or playing within the system. Most teams have at least two players capable of doing that, so you could even argue he isn't among the top 50 players in the league. I'm not saying he's a complete scrub, becuase he isn't. However, you are seriously deluded if you really think he is one of the best players in the league, or even the WC. Marion's entire game is athleticism, and when it is gone, he has no future in the league.
You should try reading your posts out loud before you click submit. It might save you from sounding like an idiot. I've got to ask you, how stupid does it sound to say a guy is offensively challenged when he has averaged anywhere from 17 to 20+ points per game every year? And his elite status in the league isn't predicated on his offense anyway. It's everything else he does: the 2.7 SPG and 1.7 BPG averages, the hustle, the durability, his free throw shooting, the lock-down defense, the consistency every single night. He has no future in the league? , man. He's already got 9 awesome years and he's not even 30. You're a dumbass.
Could you just stop with the Nash hate. We all know you don't like him and that's your perogative, but we don't have to keep hearing about it. The majority of your posts talk about how crappy he is.
About 17 to 20+ of them coming from alley-oops, fast-break dunks, and kick outs for wide open jumpers.
Lock-down defense? I don't consider him a lock-down defender by any means... although he is quite good. But those other little things, yes, he does quite well. Unfortunately, those little things don't transform you into an elite player. The thing that separates the good players from the great players is their ability to create offensively. He cannot create offensively at all. Even J.J. Barea is better at creating his own shot and for others. I'm sorry, but if you can't create for yourself, I don't see how you can be considered an elite player. He is a perfect role player, a great #2 or #3 guy, but will never be a #1. He is like Scottie Pippen, without the offensive creating ability.
That's a funny way to interpret the word. How about Nash's fundamentally perfect jump shot? How about his fundamentals shooting free throws? How about his fundamental ball-handling skills, to go along with his freakish (and often, but not always, unorthodox) passing skills. If Nash somehow "breaks" fundamentals with his passing, it ain't because he can't make fundamentally sound passes. It's cause he's so good that he's above it. The same way people didn't rip too much on Jordan for making passes while in the air.
I don't buy the argument that he can't get a shot for himself or others. I've seen him do it. Many times in over nine years. He doesn't do it often because he doesn't have to, not because he can't. I mean, what's the guy supposed to do? Take a set-up assist pass from Nash and dribble it around a bit first? Your argument is pretty weak.
Yeah... Marion has never averaged 2.7 steals per game. His highest in a season is 2.3, but his career average is under 2 per game.
Also, I'd have to agree with the sentiment behind stretch's synopsis of Marion's offensive prowess. He doesn't create offense for himself. That's the very definition of a limited offensive game. What's more is his shot is wildly inconsistant, so while his percentages are above average, when he winds up to shoot, he's just as likely to miss the rim entirely as he is to make the basket.
I love Marion and think that several Spurs fans on this site diminish him because of his playoff failings vs. the Spurs. I don't think that's fair. Still, Marion is limited on offense, a bit overrated as a lockdown defender and is therefore overpaid by several million a year. He's worth roughly 12 million or so per, not the 15-per this contract has paid him and certainly not worth the 20 per he's looking for in an extension.
Marion's value comes in his versatility, both to defend multiple positions and do many things on offense without plays being run for him. I love him for that. However, with very little ability to control a game beyond rebounding, he doesn't deserve the money he makes.
Now, I'm not blaming the Suns for signing him to this deal when they did. At the time he had yet to plateau, as he has recently, and he showed a lot of promise in the offensive department. However, that never fully developed and now he's a dependant. He entirely relies on fast break opportunities, easy lobs/putbacks and open perimeter jumpers, all of which are created by someone other than him.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shawn_...eer_stats.html
2.7 steals per game in 2007-2008 so far. 2.3 previous season high. You are correct.
You are in need of a remedial reading course. You seem to confuse past, present, and future tense. Here's a pointer: try focusing on key words. For example, a phrase beginning with the indicator "when" (as in "when X, then Y") generally indicates a future conditional event. In this case, the condition was aging, which is inevitable.
In general, it is better to debate what someone actually said, instead of creating a straw man. For example, where did I refer to him as "offensively challenged?" I'll give you a pass on that one, since I do believe he is in fact offensively challenged.
I'm no longer sure if we are discussing the same player. It's Shawn Marion, right? How can someone be the third option on their own team, and be an "elite" player? Similarly, when I think of consistency, I don't usually envision a player who routinely disappears in critical playoff games. The criteria you have given for an "elite" player is better used to describe the distinction between starters and role players. I'll grant you he is talented enough to start for just about any NBA team.
You want to play semantic games? I think the above quote from you is pretty fairly encapsulated by my more concise use of "offensively challenged." But if you want to be a stickler, that's your prerogative. I was pleasantly suprised that you didn't quote me Hume or Thales, however. Kudos for that.
What playoff games are you talking about? The guy averaged 17.1 ppg and 10.4 rpg during last year's playoffs. 16.9 & 10.4 the year before. 20.4 and 11.7 the year before that. What the are you talking about?
now you're gonna deny that Shawn Marion doesn't regularly tank in playoff games? I doubt DSF would even deny that.
Reggie- Another question: is reigning MVP Dirk Nowitzki not an elite player because he chokes in the playoffs?
Typical Suns troll. Shift the argument. Call it whatever you want. When someone distorts what I have said to justify name-calling, I will respond most of the time.
"Offensively challenged" suggests someone like Rodman, who was almost afraid to even do a layup near the end. I thought that was a bit strong to describe Marion. Clearly my mistake was giving the guy any credit at all...
By the way, it would be somewhat anachronistic to quote Thales in an Aristotelian syllogism. Nice try, though.
he's gotten farther than anybody on the Suns. You ought to remember the chokejob night when he dropped 50 on Phoenix.
No one ever said that. But when Nash is out of the game, he is pretty much unable to score, unless he gets a rebound and put-back or something. He almost looks lost at times.
Quit pulling stats. You ing suck at it.
And how the can you suck at pulling stats??? You must be the most incompetent moron alive.
Dirk is a big man who is neither a low post scorer nor a dominant interior defender. I would argue that he isn't a "choker," becuase people have expected him to miraculously become something he isn't the last two seasons. I would say that he is beginning to earn the "inconsistent" label.
I have been here over two years, and I believe I have only used the word "choke" once in all of that time: describing the Spurs' 2004 playoff exit.
This isn't semantics. Stop putting words in my mouth. "Inconsistent" is a value neutral assessment of someone's play. "Choker" is a value judgment. You won't see me use the word "choke" very often, if at all.
Holy ing , man. You really are a total ! I just randomly picked Hume and Thales out of the air, and you tried to impose relevance upon it. , man. It could have just as well been Anaxagoras and Diogenes or something.
or Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. stop dropping names you think make you look smart, .
i can almost see DannyB looking up Kerouac on Wikipedia at this very moment to find a way to wedge his name in there too.
You didn't answer the question. At all. Nice dancing, though. Is he elite, or not?
I also think its really funny that according to you, Marion's a playoff choker but Dirk isn't. . Wow. Dirk performed the single greatest choke act in the most embarassing upset in NBA history just last year, and he's still not a choker in your book. Can you even name me a specific game in which Marion choked?
You dumbass, that's what I was making fun of him for. He's always name-dropping and trying to smuggle philosophy 101 into posts.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
