The Audacity of Hate

[Kermit]

This is my favorite part of his speech

that's rich. he's comparing people that protect their land when attacked to people that strap on bombs to their kids, mothers, fathers, and more recently, literally re ed people to blow up and KILL people for their "cause". he's justifying his pastor's stance. jews are no better or worse than terrorists. great job.

Did you even read the snippet you posted? How could you misinterpret five lines that you selectively picked out? Try again.

[GaryJohnston]

Bush IS a dictator and some in here think he's a King.

God Save the Bush!

[Ignignokt]

If I had to guess, I would guess that Barack Obama has fashioned a sort of American liberation theology which re-examines traditional liberation theology through the prism of the American political idiom of classical liberalism, anti-communism, and non-violent change.

Remember that liberation theology has nothing to do with orthodox Christianity. It is a type of postmodern theology which denies the historic doctrines of the faith, but seeks somehow to make the themes of Christianity relevant to the modern world in different ways. These theologians usually refashion Jesus in terms of whatever person or group of people they are trying to speak to.

Liberation theology originally was a fusion of Roman Catholicism with Marxism among the poor in Latin America. Since then, it has spawned feminist theology, where Jesus is viewed through the perspective of the woman's experience, black theology, which we've covered in this thread, gay theology, Palestinian theology, etc. Really, anybody can identify some group as victims and construct for them a liberation theology.

In this view, the ministry of Jesus would be reinterpreted through the experiences of the ordinary American worker. The ordinary American worker is the oppressed Judaean whom Jesus is coming to liberate. The greedy corporate executive, the lobbyist, the rapacious capitalist, is the Roman oppressor, Pontius Pilate, the Pharisees, etc. Jesus' crucifixion is recast as the slow asphyxiation of the middle and working classes. Sin is the pursuit of ill-gotten gain through corruption of the markets, lobbying abuses, pork, illegal wars, etc. Death is grinding poverty and violence in America and throughout the world. America as a collective becomes the body of Christ, responsible for each part to work together and lift the other up, and to use its bounty to minister to the world.

God becomes the agent of change to liberate the working classes from economic bondage. God's love is the act of that liberation. Faith becomes an affirmation of the history of American progressivism. Hope becomes confidence that the future will bring this change.

Once you start down this road and establish this dialectic, Marxism is not far away, since we know from Scripture that all the early believers held everything in common, and that Paul exhorted the more prosperous churches to keep only what they needed, and give the rest to the less prosperous churches.

In sum, this turns America into a neoliberal theocracy, which of course is a delicious irony for the secular left. America becomes the Chosen People of God and the Church, though only in a symbolic sense.

Don't take this intellectual exercise as any kind of affirmation of this ideology/theology, which of course would wreck the country. It is interesting that in this framework, Obama's langauge makes a great deal more sense, as does the messianic overtone of his campaign. These themes are clear in his speech yesterday, for example, where he connects the experience of the immigrant working class to that of the black man. He probably belongs at an egghead university instead of the White House.

and o jonestown!!!!!!!!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Did you even read the snippet you posted? How could you misinterpret five lines that you selectively picked out? Try again.

i did read it. what are you getting at? he's defending what his pastor says, feels, and preaches. the same pastor he's had for the past 20 years. he's not agreeing with. i never said that. nor did obama. what are you getting at, Kermie?

[Extra Stout]

This is my favorite part of his speech

that's rich. he's comparing people that protect their land when attacked to people that strap on bombs to their kids, mothers, fathers, and more recently, literally re ed people to blow up and KILL people for their "cause". he's justifying his pastor's stance. jews are no better or worse than terrorists. great job.

You need to bolster your reading comprehension skills. He most certainly did not make that moral equivalence, nor did he justify his pastor's stance.

Stick to valid criticisms. There are plenty enough. For example:

"I don't care what he feels about Pastor Wright, or the social capital of Trinity Church, to stay in a place where that kind of filth is preached week after week for 20 years... is inexplicable."

Or...

"Spare me the in-depth explanations of liberal theology. Are you trying to tell me that the parishoners at Trinity all have theology degrees from the University of Chicago and can understand the "nuance" of black liberation theology? Bull . It's putting a happy face on race-baiting hatred. He tosses the red meat, the people in the pews eat it up, and afterwards when he gets called on it he can just claim you're not 'intellectual' enough to understand him."

Or...

"The best part of all this are the liberals trying to explain how "God DAMN America" really is an appropriate sentiment. Please, please, get yourself interviewed on CNN and identify yourself as a Democratic activist."

Or...

"So when Don Imus makes one insensitive joke, he needs to be fired immediately in order to protect the delicate ears of your two daughters, but subjecting them to "white people created AIDS" and "the CIA created crack" and "God damn America" "destroy Israel" and "America deserved 9/11" week after week after week is edifying for them? Do they have theology degrees from the University of Chicago too?"

[smeagol]

This is my favorite part of his speech. that's rich. he's comparing people that protect their land when attacked to people that strap on bombs to their kids, mothers, fathers, and more recently, literally re ed people to blow up and KILL people for their "cause". he's justifying his pastor's stance. jews are no better or worse than terrorists. great job.

You need to take Reading Comprehension 101 again.

[Kermit]

i did read it. what are you getting at? he's defending what his pastor says, feels, and preaches. the same pastor he's had for the past 20 years. he's not agreeing with. i never said that. nor did obama. what are you getting at, Kermie?

What are you saying? I think I need you to translate your own paragraph.

[smeagol]

i did read it. what are you getting at? he's defending what his pastor says, feels, and preaches. the same pastor he's had for the past 20 years. he's not agreeing with. i never said that. nor did obama. what are you getting at, Kermie?

You read it once . . . ? Go back and read it again. Please.

If you still don't understand, get somebody to explain it to you.

[Extra Stout]

and o jonestown!!!!!!!!

They can serve the Kool-Aid in paper cups with American flags on them.

[Kermit]

You need to bolster your reading comprehension skills. He most certainly did not make that moral equivalence, nor did he justify his pastor's stance.

Stick to valid criticisms. There are plenty enough. For example:

"I don't care what he feels about Pastor Wright, or the social capital of Trinity Church, to stay in a place where that kind of filth is preached week after week for 20 years... is inexplicable."

Or...

"Spare me the in-depth explanations of liberal theology. Are you trying to tell me that the parishoners at Trinity all have theology degrees from the University of Chicago and can understand the "nuance" of black liberation theology? Bull . It's putting a happy face on race-baiting hatred. He tosses the red meat, the people in the pews eat it up, and afterwards when he gets called on it he can just claim you're not 'intellectual' enough to understand him."

Or...

"The best part of all this are the liberals trying to explain how "God DAMN America" really is an appropriate sentiment. Please, please, get yourself interviewed on CNN and identify yourself as a Democratic activist."

Or...

"So when Don Imus makes one insensitive joke, he needs to be fired immediately in order to protect the delicate ears of your two daughters, but subjecting them to "white people created AIDS" and "the CIA created crack" and "God damn America" "destroy Israel" and "America deserved 9/11" week after week after week is edifying for them? Do they have theology degrees from the University of Chicago too?"

All legitimate points, none of which will be adressed by the media who have already put this behind them.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

maybe i'm not explaining it correctly. i'm not saying obama agrees with his pastor. never did. he says he denounces it. the part that i quoted was obama justifying pastor wright's view. he's saying what his pastor feels. later on in the speech he says people that grew up during the 50's and 60's, which include his pastor, have that view because of the times that they grew up in.

[smeagol]

ES, do you think Obama is that dangerous?

My view is that even if he is elected, Americans would not allow their own country to go down the road you are predicting.

[smeagol]

maybe i'm not explaining it correctly. i'm not saying obama agrees with his pastor. never did. he says he denounces it. the part that i quoted was obama justifying pastor wright's view. he's saying what his pastor feels. later on in the speech he says people that grew up during the 50's and 60's, which include his pastor, have that view because of the times that they grew up in.

Where's the backpeddling emoticon?

(I'm just teasing you, dude )

[Kermit]

maybe i'm not explaining it correctly. i'm not saying obama agrees with his pastor. never did. he says he denounces it. the part that i quoted was obama justifying pastor wright's view. he's saying what his pastor feels. later on in the speech he says people that grew up during the 50's and 60's, which include his pastor, have that view because of the times that they grew up in.

échouer.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

échouer.

gazunteit

[Extra Stout]

ES, do you think Obama is that dangerous?

My view is that even if he is elected, Americans would not allow their own country to go down the road you are predicting.

Don't think of LT in the context of what it looked like in Latin America. There wouldn't be communist guerillas running back and forth through the hinterlands.

What he would be able to do is cast socialism in a langauge where a lot of ordinary Americans would find it very appealing. He's not going to come out and say, "Whoopee! We're a theocracy now!"

But, do you remember how George W. Bush's speechwriters knew how to use biblical allusions that set off the antennae of religious people in America? Well, Obama has even better command of that language and can apply it to left-wing socialism. Furthermore, his use of that language would not be ad hoc, but rather would be emanating from a coherent religio-political philosophy.

If you read a lot of the themes in the American liberation theology which I hypothesized, they are themes that strike a chord with many of the feelings Americans have about themselves, e.g. American exceptionalism. Obama would be able to channel those feelings into establishing a greater consensus behind a left-wing political agenda.

I suspect all that is hypothetical now, however, since Republican 527's can just play "God DAMN America" over and over again in a loop in their TV ads. Obama's wounds are probably fatal, even though his speech yesterday will likely be in political science textbooks a generation from now.

[smeagol]

Don't think of LT in the context of what it looked like in Latin America. There wouldn't be communist guerillas running back and forth through the hinterlands.

I wasn't. Don't worry. There is no scenario where what happened in LatAm in the 60s and 70sd can be replicated in the US.

I suspect all that is hypothetical now, however, since Republican 527's can just play "God DAMN America" over and over again in a loop in their TV ads. Obama's wounds are probably fatal, even though his speech yesterday will likely be in political science textbooks a generation from now.

Obama is young. You will have to keep him in check for the next 30 years.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This is my favorite part of his speech

that's rich. he's comparing people that protect their land when attacked to people that strap on bombs to their kids, mothers, fathers, and more recently, literally re ed people to blow up and KILL people for their "cause". he's justifying his pastor's stance. jews are no better or worse than terrorists. great job.

Sounds like some Corsos need to brush up on the history of Israel's corso tactics CORSO

[RandomGuy]

I suspect all that is hypothetical now, however, since Republican 527's can just play "God DAMN America" over and over again in a loop in their TV ads. Obama's wounds are probably fatal, even though his speech yesterday will likely be in political science textbooks a generation from now.

I don't. I think that it will be a non-issue come November, and people will remember the speech more than the jackass.

For people sitting on the fence and playing wait and see, the speech will mean more, because it is the man in his own words and thoughts, and not someone associated with him.

From what I have heard, the people who hadn't already made up their minds were quite impressed.

As Jon Stewart put it:

"At 11am on a Tuesday, a politician spoke to the American people about race... as if they were adults."

[Extra Stout]

I don't. I think that it will be a non-issue come November, and people will remember the speech more than the jackass.

For people sitting on the fence and playing wait and see, the speech will mean more, because it is the man in his own words and thoughts, and not someone associated with him.

With apologies to the late William F. Buckley, I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting you actually believe that.

[Kermit]

I don't. I think that it will be a non-issue come November, and people will remember the speech more than the jackass.

For people sitting on the fence and playing wait and see, the speech will mean more, because it is the man in his own words and thoughts, and not someone associated with him.

From what I have heard, the people who hadn't already made up their minds were quite impressed.

As Jon Stewart put it:

"At 11am on a Tuesday, a politician spoke to the American people about race... as if they were adults."

I'm with Extra on this one. There is no way the Republican base lets anyone forget this mess. You think Senator Kerry got swift-boated? Wait till Obama wins the nomination. There will be epic attacks on an unprecedented level the likes of which we have never seen in a presidential election. Senator Obama thinks he's shaken from this scandal. He hasn't seen anything yet.

[RandomGuy]

With apologies to the late William F. Buckley, I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting you actually believe that.

I am an optimist. I like to believe that people might actually be able to be adults about this. What can I say?

[RandomGuy]

I'm with Extra on this one. There is no way the Republican base lets anyone forget this mess. You think Senator Kerry got swift-boated? Wait till Obama wins the nomination. There will be epic attacks on an unprecedented level the likes of which we have never seen in a presidential election. Senator Obama thinks he's shaken from this scandal. He hasn't seen anything yet.

(shrugs)

We'll get to find out.

The thing is, that moderates hate that kind of crap. I know I do.

Swift-boat worked because it worked up the GOP base, not because it convinced moderates. This crap might work because it works up the GOP base, but it will convince the moderates that Obama is the right candidate.

As I said, we'll see. I am usually pretty good about calling these things.

Think about it this way:
You have three voters, A, B, and C. A and C always vote in ways that are opposite. Where is the real decision making power?

[Extra Stout]

I am an optimist. I like to believe that people might actually be able to be adults about this. What can I say?

Prepare to be disappointed.

Hey, the past few days have been a marvelous intellectual exercise. I really believe that Obama's relationship with Wright was in spite of Wright's racial blatherings, that Obama really respected Wright's liberal theological erudition and drew from it, though with a focus on class where Wright put it on race. I make Obama out to be both a brilliant political scientist and an astute armchair liberal theologian to boot, even though I completely and firmly oppose his conclusions.

But you know as well as I do that the number of voters who are going to read or listen to a 37-minute speech and then make a thoughful and nuanced consideration of what Obama is saying is very small, while the number of voters who will react viscerally to soundbites of his pastor is much, much larger.

[RandomGuy]

ooooh, and then there is the economy.

If the economy goes south, that also historically bodes well for Dems.