Atheism on the rise in every single US state.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Wait a second. If I was able to brainwash someone into not performing any sort of evil acts, as if he could not think of them, would you consider him to have free will?

This statement, and the appearance of MiamiHeat make this discussion no longer worth it.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I seriously cannot believe adults still believe in fairy tales.

I was smart enough to figure all of this out, by myself, when I was 14.

Respectable study after study, always shows that over 95%-98% of all leading scientists and those elected to the National Academy of Sciences in the USA DO NOT BELIEVE IN A GOD.


You know who makes up the largest percentage of believers on planet earth?

Everyday citizens

However, the everyday citizen is normally a good person. loves almost everyone, or everyone, on this earth and would help you in any way they can. If you ever needed help, they would probably be there for you.

It's just people like them are....simpletons, sheeple who are led by others smarter than them.

you talking about someone else being a simpleton... I'm sorry but

[Blake]

Perhaps my dunking a basketball example was as good as it should be. More accurately, evil will be defeated and no longer exist. Your volition will exist exactly as it does now. And, I'll use your definition of free will...you currently have ti free will to do whatever it is you want, if you have the capacity to do so.

So, I want to build a house, and I want my living room to be in the shape of a square-circle. Now, obviously there is no such thing as a square-circle, so I can't do that.

Since the problem of evil will not exist...since there is no such thing as sin...your capacity to commit sin no longer exists. Your will is still free, but as it exists now, you will be limited to exercise that will according to choices that actually exist.

The trouble you and others have with this is that you're all for God dealing with the problem of evil when it comes to murder, and genocide, and torture, and all the REALLY evil stuff. But when it comes to the FUN evil stuff, you'd prefer that He just leave you alone.

what is your definition of sin?

and has heaven changed since Lucifer sinned, or will we just not have the capacity to try to rise up against God?

Would it be a sin to give God the middle finger in Heaven? Or is that something I won't be capable of doing?

[Blake]

It's just people like them are....simpletons, sheeple who are led by others smarter than them.

but obviously still not as smart as you

[Blake]

Ummm no... how about I think of you as a jerk instead...

sure. As long as you think of yourself as a hypocrite while you're at it.

So then your accusation that I changed the subject was thrown out in jest???...

it's pretty clear that you calling me a troll is off topic.

I respond in kind... I never implied otherwise. angel_luv, however, didn't do anything but express her opinion... and you somehow felt compeled to scorn, mock and ridicule her statements... What's worse is that you tried to pass your own opinions off as fact. In the process you demonstrated your propensity for being a classless jerk. But hey... with a few exceptions here and there, that at ude seems to go hand in hand with your belief set. Way to go!

angel luv is a big girl that can take care of herself.

please show what opinion I have that I passed off as fact.

I have only passed facts off as facts.

Way to go, hypocrite!

I challenged the footing of his statement. There is a difference. You however, have gone out of your way to wage a meaningless war of attrition because of it...

you said he claimed that absence of do entation was proof that God doesnt exist.

Watch out behind you while you backpedal.

Nor would I expect you to understand the severity of your problem... Jerks seldom do.

obviously you don't understand the severity of your problem. I guess hypocrites seldom do.

I'm sorry if the concept is beyond your grasp... Don't worry maybe one day you'll understand the subtle differences of why I had to change the point of emphasis on that old tired cliché... that day may come when you actually invest the time to actually read people's responses, instead of just sneering at them... but since we've established that you are a jerk, that day may not come soon enough...

no, the concept behind your failed analogy was not beyond my grasp.

If no one is 'there' to see a tree fall in the forrest, it doesn't take away the fact that it did. The tree falls [an event takes place] regardless of whether or not someone is there to do ent it.

it's a fail because a tree that is lying down in the forest can be proven to have fallen.

Now we have established you are not only a hypocrite, but also a dumbass.

Beliefs of the masses aren't always the correct ones.

It is not belief that asking someone else to disprove that your assertion is true is a fail. It is a fact.

If you make the assertion that God exists, then it is on you to prove it. It is not on anyone else to disprove it.

I don't care if people believe in them or not... nor do I care to disprove their existence... Frankly, it is irrelevant to my belief set.

Of course you don't care to because you can't disprove their existence.

So you subject my stance to random standards but don't apply them across the board... I see....

sigh....

no, I apply the same standards across the board, even regarding random statements like yours.

[I Love Me Some Me]

what is your definition of sin?

and has heaven changed since Lucifer sinned, or will we just not have the capacity to try to rise up against God?

Would it be a sin to give God the middle finger in Heaven? Or is that something I won't be capable of doing?

Sin is anything that is contrary to the instructions of God.

Heaven has not changed since Lucifer sinned, except for his dismissal and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him. We will not have the capacity to rise up against God, because evil will have been defeated and we'll not have the inclination to do so.

[LnGrrrR]

This statement, and the appearance of MiamiHeat make this discussion no longer worth it.

Well, you said yourself they would no longer have the capacity to perform evil in heaven, because there is none, correct?

Let's take a hypothetical situation. If I brainwashed someone so he was physically incapable of committing an evil act, even MENTALLY incapable of thinking of committing an evil act, would you still consider that to be 'free will'?

It's a valid question. (If I've misunderstood your capacity/will argument, please correct me.)

[Blake]

Sin is anything that is contrary to the instructions of God.

Heaven has not changed since Lucifer sinned, except for his dismissal and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him. We will not have the capacity to rise up against God, because evil will have been defeated and we'll not have the inclination to do so.

1. why won't we have the inclination? you said we will have the same free will in heaven as we do today.

there are still 2/3 angels left. If 1/3 were dumb enough to fall for it the first time with Lucifer, I'm betting there are a few that were on the fence that could be swayed again.

2. evil has not yet been defeated, so is it then possible for the people currently in heaven to sin? or are they not in heaven and instead in purgatory?

by saying that Heaven has not changed, by default then it will still be possible to sin.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Let's take a hypothetical situation. If I brainwashed someone so he was physically incapable of committing an evil act, even MENTALLY incapable of thinking of committing an evil act, would you still consider that to be 'free will'?

No, I would not.

[I Love Me Some Me]

1. why won't we have the inclination? you said we will have the same free will in heaven as we do today.

there are still 2/3 angels left. If 1/3 were dumb enough to fall for it the first time with Lucifer, I'm betting there are a few that were on the fence that could be swayed again.

2. evil has not yet been defeated, so is it then possible for the people currently in heaven to sin? or are they not in heaven and instead in purgatory?

by saying that Heaven has not changed, by default then it will still be possible to sin.

1. You cannot be inclined towards something that does not exist. The source of all sin will be destroyed. I know it's difficult to wrap our minds around, but think of it this way. When you're booking a flight, you have the volition to fly on any airline you want. However, when exercising that free will, you don't even consider booking a flight on TWA. Why? Because TWA doesn't exist anymore. Your free will to fly whatever airline you want isn't changed, but you can't choose TWA.

And the problem of Lucifer will be resolved as well. Remember, he was a unique angle created with "perfect knowledge"...no other such being exists/existed, except God himself.

2. The people currrently in Heaven do not exist there (currently) as physical bodies...the facilitator for sin in living people. (Prepare for kooky rapture talk.....) They will be reunited with their physical bodies upon Christ's return. In fact, they'll go first....I Thessalonians says, "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

[LnGrrrR]

No, I would not.

Great! We have a starting point.

Now, you said that we will no longer have the capacity to do evil in Heaven, correct?

Will that be because we WANT to perform evil, but be unable to? Or because we will no longer WANT to perform evil?

If the latter, is it your contention that everyone that goes to Heaven will FREELY choose not to perform sin?

If so, then what changes the human psyche from wanting to commit sin to not, if not some sort of 'brainwashing'?

If you disagree with many at any of these steps, just stop me there and we can continue from where you disagree.

[LnGrrrR]

1. You cannot be inclined towards something that does not exist. The source of all sin will be destroyed. I know it's difficult to wrap our minds around, but think of it this way. When you're booking a flight, you have the volition to fly on any airline you want. However, when exercising that free will, you don't even consider booking a flight on TWA. Why? Because TWA doesn't exist anymore. Your free will to fly whatever airline you want isn't changed, but you can't choose TWA.

Interesting way to look at it. However, the only reason I do not exercise my free will to choose TWA is because it isn't there. However, I might still WANT to choose TWA because I flew on it in the past; I am just unable to.

Will past knowledge of pleasurable sin be erased from the minds of those who go to Heaven? Or will it still exist, yet something will make these people find it unpleasurable? Or will they still want to perform these acts, but they will just be unable to per your analogy.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Great! We have a starting point.

Now, you said that we will no longer have the capacity to do evil in Heaven, correct?

Will that be because we WANT to perform evil, but be unable to? Or because we will no longer WANT to perform evil?

If the latter, is it your contention that everyone that goes to Heaven will FREELY choose not to perform sin?

If so, then what changes the human psyche from wanting to commit sin to not, if not some sort of 'brainwashing'?

If you disagree with many at any of these steps, just stop me there and we can continue from where you disagree.

It is my contention that evil will no longer exist. Those in heaven will live with free will.

See my TWA analogy to blake. Have you been "brainwashed" against TWA?

[I Love Me Some Me]

Interesting way to look at it. However, the only reason I do not exercise my free will to choose TWA is because it isn't there. However, I might still WANT to choose TWA because I flew on it in the past; I am just unable to.

Will past knowledge of pleasurable sin be erased from the minds of those who go to Heaven? Or will it still exist, yet something will make these people find it unpleasurable? Or will they still want to perform these acts, but they will just be unable to per your analogy.

One could argue that the DESIRE to sin, is a sin itself.

Second part, I'm not sure I know the answer to. I know the Bible teaches that God forgets our sin (they are cast "into the sea of forgetfulness"), but I can't say what impact that will have on heaven's general population, and whether or not we'll have memories of our earthly sin.

[Phenomanul]

I'm only going to address this part... For I've no desire to keep this up indefinitely...

no, the concept behind your failed analogy was not beyond my grasp.

it's a fail because a tree that is lying down in the forest can be proven to have fallen.

Really??? Is that your standard?

So there is do ented proof of when every tree in existence has fallen? I see... How about those that burned?

Like I said, apparently my point was beyond your grasp.

Has the life of everyone who has ever walked the face of the earth been do ented??? By your logic if they weren't, then surely they never existed... We may not know their names, but people being unearthed today existed regardless of whether or not their remains were exhumed to attest that fact... There is no onus or burden of proof on these matters... lack of scientific evidence to validate their existence does not in itself negate the fact that they did. No amount of kicking and screaming on your part can change that.

Put another way "History is history", regardless of whether or not we are able to decipher it all.

All I'm trying to say is that we can't certifiably prove that an event never took place, solely based on the assumption that do entation for said event has yet to be found or does not exist...

If you can't agree with that statement... your motives, and not logic, have taken control and clouded your mind.

What's more, is that all of my arguments were constrained by PeeWee's assumption that the Bible has zero credibility as a do ented source (a stance I don't agree with)... But even under that constraint, based on what I've explained above, his statement was unfounded...

And forgive me for insulting you... Like I said, I have a fiery personality... seeing everyone here scorn angel_luv was not easy to dismiss...

[z0sa]

Interesting way to look at it. However, the only reason I do not exercise my free will to choose TWA is because it isn't there. However, I might still WANT to choose TWA because I flew on it in the past; I am just unable to.

Will past knowledge of pleasurable sin be erased from the minds of those who go to Heaven? Or will it still exist, yet something will make these people find it unpleasurable? Or will they still want to perform these acts, but they will just be unable to per your analogy.

i don't get you people.

its Heaven, not some magic isle with bikini dancers and drugs.

the only people who made it are moral. the only people there are TRUE believers. And there is approximately 0% temptation to sin of any sort. or like I just said: we're all believers, we don't want to throw God who we're in Paradise because of the finger.

Your lukewarm "why can't i still sin?" approach will not exist, because people like that will not be in heaven. Yeah, that means a majority of people today are going to , deal with it.

that's not to say you can't make it because you have sinned - but reveling in sin is exactly the opposite of what God wants. That want and need to sin is what believers constantly fight against. Just because you give in to that sin, and deny God even exists .... while still wanting all the answers about us Believers getting there with a total different belief set? well of course it won't all make sense to you.

[LnGrrrR]

One could argue that the DESIRE to sin, is a sin itself.

Second part, I'm not sure I know the answer to. I know the Bible teaches that God forgets our sin (they are cast "into the sea of forgetfulness"), but I can't say what impact that will have on heaven's general population, and whether or not we'll have memories of our earthly sin.

Great! Thanks for this conversation. It's fun to dicuss theological arguments for me, especially since it can be tough to find believers willing to engage in logical argumentation.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you feel that the desire to sin will be erased in some fashion from the human condition.

To reflect on your TWA analogy, no one's been 'brainwashed' into not selecting TWA. However, no one has the CAPABILITY to choose TWA, no?

Now, IIRC, you've said that the capability to perform sin would be eliminated in Heaven. Since sin can also be mental, and it is human to sin, some would say, to me it would seem to take some form of mental manipulation to PREVENT us from sinning, even in Heaven (hence my 'brainwashing' example.)

If the human brain is incapable of processing the idea of sin, then it follows that we would not be able to sin (reflections of 1984's paring down of language there). But that still seems like it would almost take a form of brainwashing, rather than a spontaneous free will gesture on the part of everyone who enters Heaven. I assume the latter is your contention?

[LnGrrrR]

i don't get you people.

its Heaven, not some magic isle with bikini dancers and drugs.

the only people who made it are moral. the only people there are TRUE believers. And there is approximately 0% temptation to sin of any sort. or like I just said: we're all believers, we don't want to throw God who we're in Paradise because of the finger.

Your lukewarm "why can't i still sin?" approach will not exist, because people like that will not be in heaven. Yeah, that means a majority of people today are going to , deal with it.

that's not to say you can't make it because you have sinned - but reveling in sin is exactly the opposite of what God wants. That want and need to sin is what believers constantly fight against. Just because you give in to that sin, and deny God even exists .... while still wanting all the answers about us Believers getting there with a total different belief set? well of course it won't all make sense to you.

Are we not all sinners? Do we not make it to Heaven because we choose NOT to sin? Without that ability to make a choice, how would God determine who is and is not worthy?

Given that it is an inborn propensity for humanity to sin, how is that removed when we go to Heaven, without fundamentally changing our human nature?

[Blake]

1. You cannot be inclined towards something that does not exist. The source of all sin will be destroyed. I know it's difficult to wrap our minds around, but think of it this way. When you're booking a flight, you have the volition to fly on any airline you want. However, when exercising that free will, you don't even consider booking a flight on TWA. Why? Because TWA doesn't exist anymore. Your free will to fly whatever airline you want isn't changed, but you can't choose TWA.

that's a contradiction of you saying that heaven will be the same in the future as it was when Lucifer sinned.

And the problem of Lucifer will be resolved as well. Remember, he was a unique angle created with "perfect knowledge"...no other such being exists/existed, except God himself.

so Lucifer and angels in heaven are able to turn against God because they have/had the capacity, but we will not?

if Heaven is the same, that makes no sense.

Why will the notion to turn against God be removed unless our free will has been removed?

2. The people currrently in Heaven do not exist there (currently) as physical bodies...the facilitator for sin in living people. (Prepare for kooky rapture talk.....) They will be reunited with their physical bodies upon Christ's return. In fact, they'll go first....I Thessalonians says, "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

Nope. Doesn't jive.

Evil has not been defeated and Satan/Lucifer exists on the same dimensional plane as the people currently living in Heaven.

How can Satan have the capability to sin, but people currently in Heaven do not, unless their free will has been removed?

[Blake]

One could argue that the DESIRE to sin, is a sin itself.

so why will desire be removed?

and why did Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels desire to sin?

[Blake]

I'm only going to address this part... For I've no desire to keep this up indefinitely...

that's probably wise on your part since you are failing.

Really??? Is that your standard?

So there is do ented proof of when every tree in existence has fallen? I see... How about those that burned?

no but we have evidence that trees have fallen. we have witnessed trees falling, therefore believing that trees have fallen is not any real stretch of the imagination.

Those that burned can be proven to have burned.

Like I said, apparently my point was beyond your grasp.

Like i said, your analogy fails.

Proving that trees have fallen in the forest before has nothing to do with proving the existence of a God that nobody sees.

Apparently the ability to make good analogies is beyond your grasp

Has the life of everyone who has ever walked the face of the earth been do ented??? By your logic if they weren't, then surely they never existed... We may not know their names, but people being unearthed today existed regardless of whether or not their remains were exhumed to attest that fact... There is no onus or burden of proof on these matters... lack of scientific evidence to validate their existence does not in itself negate the fact that they did. No amount of kicking and screaming on your part can change that.

great, and people being unearthed today prove they existed.

I'm not sure what part of "if you make a claim, you need to be the one to back it up" you don't understand.

No amount of kicking and screaming on your part can change the fact that your logic is a fail.

Put another way "History is history", regardless of whether or not we are able to decipher it all.

All I'm trying to say is that we can't certifiably prove that an event never took place, solely based on the assumption that do entation for said event has yet to be found or does not exist...

If you can't agree with that statement... your motives, and not logic, have taken control and clouded your mind.

All peewee said (and I agree) is that you can't certifiably prove that God exists.

Anyone can make a crazy claim about invisible beings floating above us in the sky and you can't certifiably disprove it.

Your argument that "purposely inventing a "mock" subs utionary GOD-figure pretty much negates any possibility that "it" exists" is a fail because you cannot prove God exists to begin with.

Telling someone "oh yeah, prove it doesn't exist" never works no matter how much you think it might.

[Phenomanul]

that's probably wise on your part since you are failing.

no but we have evidence that trees have fallen. we have witnessed trees falling, therefore believing that trees have fallen is not any real stretch of the imagination.

Those that burned can be proven to have burned.

Like i said, your analogy fails.

Proving that trees have fallen in the forest before has nothing to do with proving the existence of a God that nobody sees.

Apparently the ability to make good analogies is beyond your grasp

great, and people being unearthed today prove they existed.

I'm not sure what part of "if you make a claim, you need to be the one to back it up" you don't understand.

No amount of kicking and screaming on your part can change the fact that your logic is a fail.

All peewee said (and I agree) is that you can't certifiably prove that God exists.

Anyone can make a crazy claim about invisible beings floating above us in the sky and you can't certifiably disprove it.

Your argument that "purposely inventing a "mock" subs utionary GOD-figure pretty much negates any possibility that "it" exists" is a fail because you cannot prove God exists to begin with.

Telling someone "oh yeah, prove it doesn't exist" never works no matter how much you think it might.

I never asked him to prove that GOD didn't exist (for that matter, Science can't either).... I said his statement was unfounded... that's all... Still, you decided to go on some self-pompous crusade trying to back up your faulty logic. No matter how many times you try to punctuate a thought with the word "fail," it won't change the fact that what I've said is by very definition true...

That you don't want to accept that truth at face value is not my problem...

[baseline bum]

Do they have beer in heaven? What about strippers, boxing, and craps tables? Can you get laid there? Does god look down on the three-way? Or do you just have to sit on a cloud and jerk off all over yourself for eternity?

[CuckingFunt]

If I can't get laid in heaven, bring on .

[I Love Me Some Me]

If I can't get laid in heaven, bring on .

So, hypothetically speaking, lets say someone presented us with an opprtunity to remove all the horrible things of this world. No more rape, no more torture, no more child abuse or molestation, no more hunger, no more poverty, no more genocide, no more war, no more sickness...but , in the process we'd have to lose things like drunkenness, drug use, casual sex, porn, and other things like that.

It goes to a global vote....you'd vote no?