I agree, but I think people are wrong. I think he likes the three point shot as it is the easiest one for him to take. He doesn't have to dribble to get to his spot, he can't really be guarded on it, and he doesn't have to post up or try and get good position down low. And if bigs guard him on it and play him high, he can dribble past them and get a dunk. I don't think he just sits out at the three point line in frustration and then jacks up a low percentage shot. The 3 point shot will always be a part of his game.
2003 Finals, TP9 was so hot in the early games, he was mentioned as potential Finals MVP, whatever the F his jumper was doingTony was scorching a peak Gary Payton in the playoffs as a rookie and averaging 21/5/4 through 3 games in the ing NBA Finals against Jason Kidd in his second year, which people for some reason forget in favour of maintaining theSpeedy Claxton
Not to let stats get in the way, but maybe those other guys get more shots because they play more minutes than Wemby. The other starters play at least two more minutes a game on average. Also, Wemby averages the most shot attempts on the team, then Keldon, and then Vassell. Collins is averaging 3 less shots a game than Wemby while playing more minutes. And I hate to break it to you, but Collins is a pretty good offensive player. He's got a three point shot that merits taking it to help spread the court and he has a pretty good post up game. I mean, he's shooting over 50%. Now his three point shot will ebb and flow, but if he finishes the year at 32%, he'll be good enough that it pulls bigs out of the lane and that helps every other player on the team get better shots.
I don't think anyone here has any experience in training players to play point guard in the NBA to be able to say Sochan has no shot at playing point guard. I mean, maybe he will never be that. People said the same thing about DJM when he couldn't dribble the ball against NBA point guards the first two years of his career (we called him a high dribbler). When the Spurs would be well to win 35 games, it is worth experimenting, especially when you know you have a 6'8 guy that can guard any point guard or shooting guard on the perimeter and can post up on any guard too. He's not the perfect player and he has flaws, but let's give him the same time we gave Kawhi, Parker, DJM, etc to develop before we give up. Thankfully, the Spurs are not so reactive.
None of those guys were viewed as generational talents as rookies... Wemby should be compared to the usage rates of guys like Duncan, Shaq and LeBron... Who were considered generational as a rookie... The offense was actually structured around them from day 1... Duncan took 1/5th of the shots for the entire team... Wemby doesn't have an offense structured around him, so he gets visibly frustrated and takes shots as soon as he gets the ball late in games because ppl ignore him for most of the game
Structure an offense around him and he won't... We can wag our fingers all he wants, but when he leaves, that's on the Pop enablers
Don't compare Murray to Sohan... Murray was an actual PG with ball handle skills... In high school he had some crossover highlights that made ppl compare him to Jamal Crawford... Ppl overreacted to him being embarrassed his first time in the playoffs vs an elite defender...
Keldon got 16 points, 3 boards, 3 assists in 23 minutes of action. 50% shooting.
He wasn't inefficient and the offense was not run through him.
Not sure why people are saying that.
Edit: 0 turnovers
Right. He is out there because he wants to be out there.
That's not to say his teammates don't miss him at times when he does have good position a lot because they do, but defaulting to early threes is him being him.
Last edited by tim_duncan_fan; 11-07-2023 at 05:44 PM.
You know I keep hearing to wait several years but it doesn’t make sense. Parker could dribble the ball and was an elite finisher at the rim from day one. He couldn’t really shoot that well but he beat his man off the dribble and torched GP his rookie year. It was the stuff of legends. And by 03 he really came into his own. Yeah he the bed in 3 finals games but he had a very good postseason run that year and he had elite speed with the ball in his hands from day 1.
Kawhi was on a team with 3 HOFs so we could afford to be patient. And something we never did was put Kawhi as PG. Why? Bc it’s stupid to do. He wasn’t a point guard. We gave him small incremental goals that were actually tangible for him to reach. That’s quite the opposite of Sochan. We are doing too many things at once with him. I might not have created a PG before but I know that chasing too many goals at once is bad for development. Ok Sochan work on defense of guards. Now work on dribbling. Now work on pick n roll. Work on shooting. Work on creating for others. Work on inbounding to Vic. Work on drive and kicks. Work on pocket passes in the free throw area and deep in the lane. Work on clock management. Work on feeling when to get guys the ball. Work on running the whole team. Work on setting up everything. And work on instincts for the position. It’s too much man. Idk why I’m the only one who believes that btw.
sidenote- it took DJ 5 years to be a decent PG (not elite) and if it takes Sochan 5 years to be that then we are screwed as a franchise either way. Also DJ isn’t a PG anymore where he currently is. Tre is the PG. So it took 5 years to learn only for him to now be a SG.
And sidenote 2- Wemby leading the team in shots by one shot isn’t a good thing. If we had Duncan and Elliott was averaging 1 shot less than him I would think our offense is pretty stupid. And if Mario Ellie only averaged 3 shots less than Duncan (yes even rookie Duncan) then I would be like stop shooting the ing ball and give it to Duncan. This isn’t a beautiful game scenario that a lot of posters here on stuck on bc of 12-14. This is the 99-02 Spurs. We have a franchise. We have role players. We have a Derek Anderson but the ball goes through one person in spots for that one person to dominate. We don’t go 5 possessions with ignoring him in the paint in a row. Or we don’t go 5 possessions of giving him the ball at the 3 point line and say well we tried giving it to Wemby what do you want from us. Like give him the ball in his spots. Set up for him to score. Exploit the very obvious (and only) mismatch we have on the entire team.
The problem of Kawhi leaving doesn't factor into Wemby's situation. Kawhi had a Finals MVP and 2 DPOY awards, and still wanted out. Wemby could win 2b2 rings and still decide the beaches of California are calling.
If Wemby decides to leave it won't to get more lights/bigger market but bc of the roster
Murray was SO BAD at handling the ball as a rookie, the couldn’t even play him at the 2 spot. He played SF.
Euros aren’t enamored of LA like American kids are. It’s just not in their DNA.
I guess I can't argue with most of those takes. What did you mean when you said Wemby is an awesome you player?
Do you guys think Vassell can be a second option? Not just a third option? If so, Spurs roster is looking bad. I thought he has the potential to be a number 2 on a good team, but I might be wrong on that.
I agree on Keldon, Zach and Tre, unfortunately. No idea about Sochan. He was absolutely terrible last night.
I read some of the posts below about usage, but I still Victor is not getting the ball in the right/better spots. I don't know if him taking some of those threes are because he is frustrated not getting the ball when he calls for it down low or what, but IMO, they're not putting him is good spots for him to succeed. These guys need to learn that they're not as good as him now, and when they were rookies, they weren't in the same universe as him. Should have gotten some veterans that know how to play. I'd like to see Devonte get some court time now too. No idea why he's on the bench all season and preseason. I know he's not the greatest PG, more a scoring guard I assume, but he's been in the league longer.
Also, not sure if they should consider giving Blake some court time due to the team defense being so bad. He might not be great on offense, but at least he gives a great effort on defense when he playrs.
Parker had great national speed, and yes, he did play well against a 34 year old Gary Payton, who was on the backend of his defensive career. Then he played the Lakers, who dared him to take jumpers and he shot poorly and pretty much sucked. But it was good that he sucked because it motivated him to get a jump shot. It still took several years for him to get his jumper to be reliable, but by 2006, about 4 years after he came into the league, he was awesome. Kawhi was a good, raw player, but ultimately was only useful on defense for the most part for the first 2 years of his career. But he was told when he came in the league that he wasn't a shooter and boy did he put in the work and change that narrative. And it wasn't just that DJM couldn't dribble well against starting point guards, he couldn't finish at the rim either. People were saying he was a bust back then, but he worked his butt off and got better and became an all-star and is a good player.
Look, Sochan could be a bust. It's entirely possible. But you can't tell how good he is going to be when he basically only played half of last season (as part of the tank) and 7 games this season. He flashed good stuff last year. Who knows how he will do as a PG. Maybe he never gets there. Maybe he is a 3 or a 4, but the Spurs see something in him and they have one of the best player development groups in the league that has consistently shown that they can take players and develop them into good and sometimes great players: Kawhi, Hill, DJM, Vassell, Tre Jones, Keldon Johnson, Derrick White, and Kyle Anderson. So I suggest everyone cool off on dumping everyone on the roster not named Wemby, and let things play out.
typo, it was young.
My reservation about Vassell is that he lacks playmaking skills and is more of a finisher. He needs to have someone, or a system, that will put the defense off balance first. Spurs badly need a pick and roll player who can put a defense on their heel. That initiator needs to be Spurs second option. Vassell doesn't have the dribbling and first step to be that player.
Saying that, the whole second/third option depends on you definition of it. If it's on scoring alone, then I agree that Vassell can be a second option. If it's on overall offensive impact, then I don't think he is a complete enough player to be a good second option.
Agree mostly with you. Although I am a bit higher on Keldon Johnson..Relative to contract, he is useful for the rebuilding Spurs. And he shows a lot of heart which matters in today's NBA.
The Spurs should have traded for a decent PG or got one in free agency and I don't understand PATFO's stubbornness on this count. They could have gotten Tre's brother last year itself and either him/Monte Morris this year too. This team just lacks spacing in its starting unit and this is resulting in clunky possessions that is not helping our transition defense and puts too much pressure/onus on Wemby.
I understand the idea of developing organically but saddling such a sudden load as starting PG on Sochan doesn't seem optimal to me. I don't think waiting for the 2024 draft to get a good PG is ideal either. The Spurs should be proactive in using its assets and space to get a decent PG and it is not impossible over the course of the season.
Do you have some sort of insider information the rest of us don’t? Sochan and wemby had beef, players don’t like wemby, wemby will leave because I’m not even sure what.
If wemby jacks up frustration threes, it’s all on him. That’s the definition of frustration threes.
I don't think it's good to get caught up in just shots per game. Wemby's usage rate so far is 30.5% which is higher than any season Duncan ever posted (career high was 29.7% in 2003-2004).
Wemby's big problem right now is that he is committing a ton of turnovers.
Two things. One, its probably more than 13 frustration possessions because some of those turnovers are also in a similar situation. But more importantly, we have one game out of all of them that has an exceptionally high usage rate (the 2nd Phoenix game) where he has 7 more FG than any other night. That's skewing the data a lot too. So out of 7 games, you have one with very very high usage. Another 2 with rates that aren't bad, and then 4 with 12 or fewer FGA. Its especially been frustrating because the high usage game should be way more of the norm. Wemby should be leading the team in FGA every game this season. Part of this is also that so many of his FG come in terrible positions.
I'll grant you that his frustration shots aren't impacting as much as I thought, but I still think that ~30% usage isn't telling a very complete story. Its also true its less than a lot of rookies but we haven't seen a rookie like this since Lebron.
I think people are regurgitating a bunch of typical rookie nonsense with Wemby. Yes, its only a few games into year one and yes he's going to get much better at things go along. But he's already one of the best players in this league! I don't think its a stretch to say this man is already a top 10 player in the world and we should be utilizing him as such and putting him in positions to succeed and learn from that. If anything, hes too willing a passer at times in the offense right now. There's one person on this team currently who has a chance at being a #2 level player and that is Vassel. Keldon will never be that and if we're relying on Keldon in that role we're hurting him and the team. The sooner Keldon is used to working as a role player - where he can be a damn good one - the better. He's had a chance over the past two years to show he's capable of being the man and while I thought he had a chance of being an all star he's clearly leveled off and is going to be a high end role player. Zach Collins is not someone you're going to run an offense through. Sochan is not going to be someone you run an offense through.
We know the exact direction this team is going to go because we've literally won the lotto on the best talent the NBA has had come in for the last two decades and we shoudln't be acting like this is the same team as last year and running it in the same way. That doesn't mean that we should be trying to win at all costs or even expect to win, but we shouldn't be acting like Wemby is anything but a Duncan level talent and move forward as such. Build around the man NOW and because there's absolutely no reason to drag our feet on this.
I remember the Bob Weiss years. Rebuilding sucks. People should be happy we have Victor. It still feels like there's no patience or acceptance of the reality we are in, especially considering people are happy to admit that we lack talent around Victor. Ok. So how to get talent?
On one extreme we only develop our young players and draft picks and that takes time. If Victor is okay with a slow approach then that will actually keep him here longer.
On the other extreme, we go all in early and make a bunch of trades, however, there's no guarantee for that to work, and still takes time, and if anything there's more examples of teams going all in too soon and that actually forcing their star player out earlier than needed due to accelerated expectations.
As for the anxiety of Victor leaving, that is a potential reality for any star player and people just have to accept it.
Houston spent $214M on two mid FAs and they still suck. They'll probably be bad enough to lose their lightly (1-4) protected FRP, and still have it be a good pick.
why is top 10 player running around the court in shorts full of for the second game in a row?
why are you lookin at men's butts when you watch basketball?
do you have any problems with that?
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