Trayvon Martin - black kid armed with skittles killed in "self-defense"

[Trill Clinton]

Then he wouldn't have been able to claim self defense. Why didn't he announce himself to try to defuse the situation when he knew this kid was on high alert and in defense mode when he was running away from a strange man following him?

save your keystrokes bruh.

its obvious some people are reaching for every angle possible to justify this innocent child's death. don't know how you can defend this coward and not call yourself a racist.

[ChumpDumper]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

Shooting a black guy under questionable cir stances is a rite of passage for Austin police.

[Creepn]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

A guy swinging at a cop with the full attire and badge is totally different from this situation moron.

[CosmicCowboy]

A guy swinging at a cop with the full attire and badge is totally different from this situation moron.

So even you now admit that Martin attacked Zimmerman?

[Creepn]

save your keystrokes bruh.

its obvious some people are reaching for every angle possible to justify this innocent child's death. don't know how you can defend this coward and not call yourself a racist.

I wouldn't go as far to call blake a racist but he has disappointed me with his stance on this case. I've considered this guy to be one of my John Browns on this forum. There's already too few.

[Creepn]

So even you now admit that Martin attacked Zimmerman?

He definitely attacked. But who attacked first nobody knows.

[Blake]

Then he wouldn't have been able to claim self defense. Why didn't he announce himself to try to defuse the situation when he knew this kid was on high alert and in defense mode when he was running away from a strange man following him?

He probably coulda/shoulda announced himself, but his failure to do so confirms nothing.

Was Zimmerman being attacked and stood his ground or not?

[CosmicCowboy]

I wouldn't go as far to call blake a racist but he has disappointed me with his stance on this case. I've considered this guy to be one of my John Browns on this forum. There's already too few.

You simply are confusing rational people that say they don't see enough evidence to support a conviction on second degree murder with them being racists and supporting Zimmerman.

That is not a rational or logical leap to make.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sometimes just happens. In this case two idiots met in a dark subdivision on a rainy night and one of them got his ass whipped and the other one got killed. Tragic, but not second degree murder.

[Blake]

He definitely attacked. But who attacked first nobody knows.

Right. That's why prosecution is going to have a of a time proving this was not stand you ground.

Which ftr, is a law that needs to be killed.

[Blake]

save your keystrokes bruh.

its obvious some people are reaching for every angle possible to justify this innocent child's death. don't know how you can defend this coward and not call yourself a racist.

I personally think zimmerman deserves to be in jail on manslaughter charges.

[Agloco]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

He probably would have identified himself as one as well, likely obviating the need for said shot. The context of the encounter would have been completely different methinks.

[Agloco]

That's a long, long, long stretch from second degree murder.

We can all agree Zimmerman is probably an asshole.

Sure. We agree about the 2nd degree charge being over-zealous. I'm simply arguing the case that Z is culpable in what I deem a major way. No way this guy should walk though, asshole or not.

[Trill Clinton]

I personally think zimmerman deserves to be in jail on manslaughter charges.

this we agree on

Sometimes just happens. In this case two idiots met in a dark subdivision on a rainy night and one of them got his ass whipped and the other one got killed. Tragic, but not second degree murder.

how is Tray an idiot?

he was walking home minding his business, when out of nowhere zimmergirl follows him in his truck, then gets out the truck and approaches him. he was scared, felt threatened and natural instinct is to protect ones self. I know you expected Trayvon to run away and lure the potential stalker to his home where his little brother was but Tray isn't a dummy nor a coward.

[Blake]

this we agree on

To be clear though, it so far looks to me that there is not enough evidence to prove he is guilty.

[bobbyjoe]

He probably coulda/shoulda announced himself, but his failure to do so confirms nothing.

Was Zimmerman being attacked and stood his ground or not?

- It confirms that he voluntarily and negligently passed on not 1, but at least 2 chances to diffuse the situation. The first was obviously remaining in his vehicle and listening to the dispatcher.

- We don't know who attacked first, but this much we do know, from both Zimmerman's 911 call and his police statements. When Trayon first noticed Zimmerman following him, his reaction was to run away. In that same call, George was clearly upset about "another criminal getting away".

- If Trayvon's first instinct was to get the away from Zimmerman, what makes the Zimmerman supporters so confident Trayvon attacked first? If Trayvon wanted to attack Zimmerman, why would he circle his car, but then run away on a direct path to his dad's GFs house?

- It is beyond dispute that the first time the 2 saw each other, one wanted to get away and the other wanted to pursue. One guy was looking to go home; the other wanted to catch a criminal he just knew was going to get away "like all the others did".

- Given the facts above, something must have changed for Trayvon to go from running away to slugging GZ. My guess is that GZ tried illegally to detain him. The lead detective mentioned that he had spoken to a witness who said GZ had tried to detain TM and the 2 loudly argued. You don't run away from someone you want to assault and then change your mind 45 seconds later unless something significant has transpired. GZ will never tell the truth... but the fact that his stories are filled with inconsistencies tells you he's hiding something...

[bobbyjoe]

I find it disturbing that at no point in the confrontation did Zimmerman ever identify who he worked for (or did he? From what I read he did not). That's important information.

He admitted to Detective Serino during recorded questioning that he never identified himself as a concerned neighborhood watchman. I agree that this doesn't put him in a good light.

Of course neither does it put him in a good light that in a recorded jailcell conversation with his wife he joked about getting a hoodie to avoid reporters.

I think it's a manslaughter case, but some of his actions are more like a cold-blooded murderer than a guy who just showed bad judgement, but no premeditation:

- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.

- He also kept referring to TM as "the suspect" in the police interrogation the night of the killing. Such a wanna-be cop and absolutely 0 remorse during the taped questioning, something he totally lied about in the first bond hearing. It's scary people like him exist...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

Is this what you tell yourself? He's being brought up on charges by law enforcement types or are you trying to say that cops give their own a free pass?

[clambake]

Omara asked if zim could make a statement without being cross examined lol

[Agloco]

- It confirms that he voluntarily and negligently passed on not 1, but at least 2 chances to diffuse the situation. The first was obviously remaining in his vehicle and listening to the dispatcher.

- We don't know who attacked first, but this much we do know, from both Zimmerman's 911 call and his police statements. When Trayon first noticed Zimmerman following him, his reaction was to run away. In that same call, George was clearly upset about "another criminal getting away".

- If Trayvon's first instinct was to get the away from Zimmerman, what makes the Zimmerman supporters so confident Trayvon attacked first? If Trayvon wanted to attack Zimmerman, why would he circle his car, but then run away on a direct path to his dad's GFs house?

- It is beyond dispute that the first time the 2 saw each other, one wanted to get away and the other wanted to pursue. One guy was looking to go home; the other wanted to catch a criminal he just knew was going to get away "like all the others did".

- Given the facts above, something must have changed for Trayvon to go from running away to slugging GZ. My guess is that GZ tried illegally to detain him. The lead detective mentioned that he had spoken to a witness who said GZ had tried to detain TM and the 2 loudly argued. You don't run away from someone you want to assault and then change your mind 45 seconds later unless something significant has transpired. GZ will never tell the truth... but the fact that his stories are filled with inconsistencies tells you he's hiding something...

Well put.

[Trill Clinton]

Omara asked if zim could make a statement without being cross examined lol

smh the nerve of this guy


-bobbyjoe always comes through and crushes the buildings.

[Creepn]

He admitted to Detective Serino during recorded questioning that he never identified himself as a concerned neighborhood watchman. I agree that this doesn't put him in a good light.

Of course neither does it put him in a good light that in a recorded jailcell conversation with his wife he joked about getting a hoodie to avoid reporters.

I think it's a manslaughter case, but some of his actions are more like a cold-blooded murderer than a guy who just showed bad judgement, but no premeditation:

- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.

- He also kept referring to TM as "the suspect" in the police interrogation the night of the killing. Such a wanna-be cop and absolutely 0 remorse during the taped questioning, something he totally lied about in the first bond hearing. It's scary people like him exist...

I believe you just summed up how and why it went down. The problem is proving it and I understand that but when people defend the guy just because of lack of evidence or some loopholes in the law that gives him a pass is just... I don't know.

Like morals takes a backseat while ty corrupt lawmaking is priority.

[Wild Cobra]

Innocent before "proven" guilty is a loophole?

[Blake]

-
- We don't know who attacked first

That's a big issue.

- If Trayvon's first instinct was to get the away from Zimmerman, what makes the Zimmerman supporters so confident Trayvon attacked first? If Trayvon wanted to attack Zimmerman, why would he circle his car, but then run away on a direct path to his dad's GFs house?

How do you know that was his first instinct?

- It is beyond dispute that the first time the 2 saw each other, one wanted to get away and the other wanted to pursue.

One guy was looking to go home; the other wanted to catch a criminal he just knew was going to get away "like all the others did".

Is it really beyond dispute that one guy was simply looking to go home?

Z said he saw him looking in house windows.

And Z passed a lie detector test regarding questions about that night.

[bobbyjoe]

That's a big issue.

Agreed from the standpoint of securing a conviction. Although I'd argue that Zimmerman's negligenge clearly inflamed the situation by following him unnecessarily and repeatedly as did his failure to simply point out who it was. Most disturbing of all on the police tape (I listened to all of it) is that he admits to Detective Serino that it never even occurred to him to ID himself as the neighborhood watchman.

If you were being followed late at night by a 200 pound stocky 28 year old who wasn't a cop or security guy, would you think he had good intentions or that he was probably planning to rob or attack you?
Zimmerman's own account actually justifies Trayvon taking the first swing if you listen closely. His version is that Trayvon asked him "Do you have a problem?". He tells police officers his first reaction is to reach for his cell phone in his left pocket, not to verbally respond. So, now you have a strange man who's been following you immediately reach for his pocket. How could you not reasonably think he was reaching for a weapon and want to proactively defend yourself? Again, this is where his negligent and admitted failure to identify himself makes him culpable for what went down.


How do you know that was his first instinct?

Thanks to Zimmerman. Zimmerman's own account to police was that Trayvon circled his car and then proceeded to run away. He didn't try to break into his car. He didn't knock on the cardoor or windows. He tried to get away. Again, one individual that night wanted to avoid the confrontation by getting away and the other was seeking it out to be the hero and stop a crime. Is it really beyond dispute that one guy was simply looking to go home?

Z said he saw him looking in house windows.

And Z passed a lie detector test regarding questions about that night.

He passed a voice stress test. Similar to, but not quite the same as a polygraph. It consisted of 2 questions:

"Were you in fear for your life when you shot him"

"Did you confront him?"

I'm not into police conspiracy theories, but asking a suspect 2 questions is not a thorough examination.

Check this interrogation out between Serino, another officer and Zimmerman. This one wasn't a lie detector test but the 2 officers grill him about inconsistencies and illogical statements in his previous statements and identify contradictions between his 911 call and his statement. This one wasn't subject to a lie detector test but I defy any Zimmerman supporter to listen to this for 15 minutes and honestly say they still think he's not lying.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...O5BW_blog.html

Go to the "911 calls (scroll to 16:42)" hyperlink.

I think this call really exemplifies how at first this might look like a self defense case (clearly Zimmerman had injuries and was beaten up) but when you really drill into the details, Zimmerman looks worse and worse in terms of the role he played in it.