Windhorst: Wembanyama Not Thrilled With Where Spurs Are; Doesn't Think Spurs Can Get Away With Slow Build

[MannyIsGod]

So, Franz has numbers that aren't that far off Trae offensively and being in the league for fewer years and being a much better rebounder and defender makes the case for Trae?

Ok...

Wait what? They are way lower. I think you're really minimizing how big of a gap over 6ppg and 7APG are. 4.8 vs 1.5 OBPM bears that out. Its a huge difference.

[mo7888]

I'm legit not even advocating for the trade. I don't know the Spurs have to do it but I also don't think its an awful idea depending on the price. I think more importantly the Spurs need to fill out this team so that we have a full rotation of NBA contributors. We have too many players who play right now and are only playing because we hope they end up being rotation level players in the NBA. Of the players currently on the team, we don't even have a starting 5 of players who are for sure rotation players in the NBA.

I'm legit not even advocating against a trade for Trae. I don't know the Spurs have to do it but I also don't think its an awful idea depending on the price. I think more importantly the Spurs need to fill out this team so that we have a full rotation of NBA contributors. We have too many players who play right now and are only playing because we hope they end up being rotation level players in the NBA. Of the players currently on the team, we don't even have a starting 5 of players who are for sure rotation players in the NBA.

That's the way I'd say it to articulate my view. It's not very different than your way of thinking...

[mo7888]

Wait what? They are way lower. I think you're really minimizing how big of a gap over 6ppg and 7APG are. 4.8 vs 1.5 OBPM bears that out. Its a huge difference.

And I think you're over emphasizing his extra 6 points per game with a team without Banchero. I also think you're minimizing Franz on the boards and his defensive impact.

I know your not arguing that Franz is bad.. I'm not arguing that Trae is bad. Im just speaking of over-all impact on winning..

[spurraider21]

Dallas is the best-case scenario for a team that lets their panic over a young star leaving dominate their front-office decisions. After spending basically every asset they could, they have a decent roster. But that roster is not so good that people would blame Luka for wanting to walk away even though his team gave him what he wanted and let him do whatever he wanted to do on the court. That's the best case. The worst is being like the Cavs during Lebron's first stint and basically have a -tier roster around their GOAT candidate which immediately went to after he left despite the owner's vow to win now.

People never seem to look at what's worked historically and what hasn't worked. The Spurs are not the first team in this position, and how things tend to go from here is pretty straight-forward.

I’d say the best case is Miami who had a star in Wade and traded for Shaq immediately. In year 1 shaq was still their best player. By year 2 together Wade overtook him and won finals mvp

you point to the Durant curve of 3 years but that also includes landing Westbrook in year 2 and Harden in year 3. Not just having good picks but absolutely nailing them.

i can understand arguments against Trae but not when it’s followed by a harden suggestion

[spurraider21]

I wouldn’t really be pushing for a Trae trade if we didn’t have such a surplus of picks. Dallas dried up the well with the kp and kyrie trades now further thinning themselves out with the gafford and pj moves

the spurs could trade for trade and still have a surplus of FRPs which is very different

[Mr. Body]

It's pretty wild that Trae Young is even in the same conversation as guys like Shaq, Westbrook, Durant, Harden, Kyrie, and so on. Young couldn't carry any of their jocks.

[Chinook]

I’d say the best case is Miami who had a star in Wade and traded for Shaq immediately. In year 1 shaq was still their best player. By year 2 together Wade overtook him and won finals mvp

you point to the Durant curve of 3 years but that also includes landing Westbrook in year 2 and Harden in year 3. Not just having good picks but absolutely nailing them.

i can understand arguments against Trae but not when it’s followed by a harden suggestion

I've brought up Shaq-to-MIA many times as a trade possibility. O'Neal is a GOAT candidate who at the time of that trade was at the tail end of his prime. I'm in favor of the Spurs making that kind of trade. A Young trade is basically the opposite of that. The closest trade to that would be a Curry trade. Shaq also cost basically nothing because no one liked draft picks back then.

Harden for cap space and Trae for multiple picks are very different cir stances. I don't want Harden, but it seems like a short-term accerlative move the Spurs could make while holding their assets for a better opportunity. Paul is similar but with a lower ceiling and would probably still cost at least one first.

[The Truth #6]

Shaq and Durant are on another level. Kyrie, Westbrook, and Harden have more talent (than Trae) but are headaches/cancers/coach killers, so then the question is if Trae really is a cancer or not.

[KobesAchilles]

I've brought up Shaq-to-MIA many times as a trade possibility. O'Neal is a GOAT candidate who at the time of that trade was at the tail end of his prime. I'm in favor of the Spurs making that kind of trade. A Young trade is basically the opposite of that. The closest trade to that would be a Curry trade. Shaq also cost basically nothing because no one liked draft picks back then.

Harden for cap space and Trae for multiple picks are very different cir stances. I don't want Harden, but it seems like a short-term accerlative move the Spurs could make while holding their assets for a better opportunity. Paul is similar but with a lower ceiling and would probably still cost at least one first.

Funny enough I also would like Harden. He is looking for one last pay day and if the Clippers flame out then he won’t get it over there. I think Harden provides a lot that would help us on the team. And unlike Embiid, Victor is clutch and doesn’t shy away from the moment. Harden and Embiid worked very well together. Hard to say that Vic and Harden wouldn’t work. A trade for Marcus Smart would be nice too to offset Hardens porous defense. This is actually more manageable and lets us keep all our picks that everyone here is sure that are going to be all stars.

Harden on a 3 year 120 million (team option 3rd year) isn’t a bad idea.

[scott]

Like I said above, why do we need to get Wemby's co-star before the 25 draft? Getting that second star that is going to sidekick Wemby for years to come is kinda of a big deal. I know some people might think that if Trae doesn't pan out, they can just re-direct and get rid of him quite easily, but I don't know how realistic that would be. In getting Young, you're giving up, at least, 4 unprotected first round picks and a big ass contract. Pivoting from that won't be as easy as some of you might think.

Making a move for Trae that ends up proving to be not good enough to trully contend for championships might end up costing us Wembanyama. I don't know why we should be in any rush to make that decision and settle for, arguably, the most flawed "star" in the entire league, tbh.

Apologies if this has already been answered (I'm a few pages behind), but one potential answer to this question (and I don't think there is an absolutely answer either way... it's all just shades of preference) is that in 2025, most of the unnatural draft assets you have convey*, at which time you'll either need to trade them or use them. If you wait until after the 25 draft to decide that you need to go out and acquire Wemby's co-star, you'll have a far depleted war chest by which to do it.

*Of course there is a huge asterisks! Things change if those picks don't convey, but each year a pick does not convey it looses some of its inherent value, which is a whole different topic... but anyway, assuming they all convey on time, that would be the argument.

[scott]

I'm not even a big Young fan but acting like hitting on a player that is as good as Young being easy or likely is just a crazy thing to expect. The Spurs are unlikely to get a player with their draft picks that is as good as Young is. That should be pretty ing obvious. All NBA Guards are hard to come by.

Still a few pages to catch up on, but I'm glad someone said this.

We might be able to pick someone better than an All-NBA guard out of this collection of raw 19-year olds that enter the draft every year... or maybe we'll get RJ Barrett or Jalil Okafor or Enes Freedom or OJ Mayo or Dragan Bender or Cody Zeller or Dion Waiters of Tristan Thompson or Wesley Johnson or Isaac Okoro or Kris Dunn or Mario Hezonja or Dante Exum of Alex Len or Thomas Robinson or Shelden Williams. And that's if we have multiple 3-5 picks, where all those guys were drafted.

[scott]

I can't wait for us to acquire Trae simply so we can stop hearing about how he sucks in the "all other NBA players suck" kind of way this forum does, and instead hear about how he sucks in the "all our players suck" kind of way this forum does.

[scott]

There are two critically overlooked scenarios in Atlanta's range of outcomes.

It is agreed that is not in Atlanta's best interest to trade Trae to another team in exchange for future draft capital and they are highly unlikely to do this. However this does not mean that Atlanta's only options are to trade him to us at a bargain, or be stuck on teh treadmill.

Atlanta can also:

1) Trade Trae for players they perceive will improve their team. It is reasonable to believe that part of Atlanta's problem is structural: playing Trae and DJM together. For that reason, they may be able to put together a package that gets them pieces that assemble a more cohesive team.
2) Keep Trae and actively try to improve. This option seems to get dismissed out of hand, and with that team's track record maybe that's valid... but it's entirely within the range of outcomes that Atlanta makes some other moves that make them a better team, and deliver to us Pick #19 in 2025, for example. Sound crazy? That's only a 8 game improvement versus where they are right now at this point in the season. They are closer to that, then they are to falling to 5th (worst record; 10 games)

[timtonymanu]

Pretentious spurs fans wanting Wagner over young. Lol.

[mo7888]

There are two critically overlooked scenarios in Atlanta's range of outcomes.

It is agreed that is not in Atlanta's best interest to trade Trae to another team in exchange for future draft capital and they are highly unlikely to do this. However this does not mean that Atlanta's only options are to trade him to us at a bargain, or be stuck on teh treadmill.

Atlanta can also:

1) Trade Trae for players they perceive will improve their team. It is reasonable to believe that part of Atlanta's problem is structural: playing Trae and DJM together. For that reason, they may be able to put together a package that gets them pieces that assemble a more cohesive team.
2) Keep Trae and actively try to improve. This option seems to get dismissed out of hand, and with that team's track record maybe that's valid... but it's entirely within the range of outcomes that Atlanta makes some other moves that make them a better team, and deliver to us Pick #19 in 2025, for example. Sound crazy? That's only a 8 game improvement versus where they are right now at this point in the season. They are closer to that, then they are to falling to 5th (worst record; 10 games)

I think #1 is a real option for Atl and a worse case scenario for us. If they go this route they are looking mostly at complimentary players coming back. That may be enough to get them to a top 6 seed in the east. If say, NJ offered CJ + MB pairing those with DJ will lift their floor. It's something to consider..

I dismisses #2 myself. I don't see where they have any assets to improve outside of Trae. DJ will bring something, but mostly i think it'll be low draft picks from a contender.

[Chinook]

There are two critically overlooked scenarios in Atlanta's range of outcomes.

It is agreed that is not in Atlanta's best interest to trade Trae to another team in exchange for future draft capital and they are highly unlikely to do this. However this does not mean that Atlanta's only options are to trade him to us at a bargain, or be stuck on teh treadmill.

Atlanta can also:

1) Trade Trae for players they perceive will improve their team. It is reasonable to believe that part of Atlanta's problem is structural: playing Trae and DJM together. For that reason, they may be able to put together a package that gets them pieces that assemble a more cohesive team.
2) Keep Trae and actively try to improve. This option seems to get dismissed out of hand, and with that team's track record maybe that's valid... but it's entirely within the range of outcomes that Atlanta makes some other moves that make them a better team, and deliver to us Pick #19 in 2025, for example. Sound crazy? That's only a 8 game improvement versus where they are right now at this point in the season. They are closer to that, then they are to falling to 5th (worst record; 10 games)

Number 1 is a possibility if the Hawks fall in love with Murray. I mentioned before something like Vassell and Keldon could be the ballast for the Spurs, though in that case the pick part would be lighter.

Number 2 is what I think happens this year. That's what they seemed to be trying to do with a Murray trade, and you could argue the Young rumors serve mostly to boost DJM's value. If the Spurs are comfortable with a DJM trade, the two sides could probably figure something out more readily since ATL wouldn't be tanking. I know Mo dismisses it, but getting a guaranteed pick in 2025 and 2027 (by turning the picks into swaps) would allow the Hawks to go all-in on a trade, and they might be able to cobble together some cap room depending on how it's structured.

Something like Murray and the Sacramento pick for Graham, Wesley/Branham, the Charlotte pick and the conversion the 2025 and 2027 picks into swaps. If the Toronto pick rolls over, that means the Spurs have two firsts in 2024, two protected firsts in 2025 and "double picks" for 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028 and 2030. They retain those future years of upside without having to worry about roster spots.

(In case anyone is wondering, Graham's guaranteed salary and the young guard should be enough outgoing salary to allow the Spurs to take Murray into cap space, preserving Johnson and Collins for another trade while giving the Hawks max cap savings.)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The Hawks are going to try to improve their 20 win team without any draft picks for 3 years but the 10thish pick in this ty draft? You think that is the likely conclusion they will come to?

[mo7888]

Number 1 is a possibility if the Hawks fall in love with Murray. I mentioned before something like Vassell and Keldon could be the ballast for the Spurs, though in that case the pick part would be lighter.

Number 2 is what I think happens this year. That's what they seemed to be trying to do with a Murray trade, and you could argue the Young rumors serve mostly to boost DJM's value. If the Spurs are comfortable with a DJM trade, the two sides could probably figure something out more readily since ATL wouldn't be tanking. I know Mo dismisses it, but getting a guaranteed pick in 2025 and 2027 (by turning the picks into swaps) would allow the Hawks to go all-in on a trade, and they might be able to cobble together some cap room depending on how it's structured.

Something like Murray and the Sacramento pick for Graham, Wesley/Branham, the Charlotte pick and the conversion the 2025 and 2027 picks into swaps. If the Toronto pick rolls over, that means the Spurs have two firsts in 2024, two protected firsts in 2025 and "double picks" for 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028 and 2030. They retain those future years of upside without having to worry about roster spots.

(In case anyone is wondering, Graham's guaranteed salary and the young guard should be enough outgoing salary to allow the Spurs to take Murray into cap space, preserving Johnson and Collins for another trade while giving the Hawks max cap savings.)

Interesting... I wasn't really considering DJ as a target for us. I wouldn’t hate that...

[z0sa]

Did I just read Wagner over Trae Young? Just, what? People act Trae Young has never even won a playoff game or something. Like he's not one of the most impactful players in today's game.

He's not a champion - yet. He's also not some perennial loser.

None of the guys playing on this team are former/multiple time champs anymore, folks. Just sayin'.

[Chinook]

Interesting... I wasn't really considering DJ as a target for us. I wouldn’t hate that...

I don't know how serious the Spurs were about either player, but the rumors are they talked to the Hawks about both. I don't love Murray for numerous reasons, but his small contract means the Spurs could add him to their core rather than disrupt to core to add Young. If they believe in the core, that's a benefit, and they preserve the ability to make other trades. Murray theoretical versatility means they could draft a player like Reed Sheppard without feeling like they're capping him as a backup PG. Theoretically he'd a strong fit with Murray in a way that he's not with Young.

[mo7888]

I don't know how serious the Spurs were about either player, but the rumors are they talked to the Hawks about both. I don't love Murray for numerous reasons, but his small contract means the Spurs could add him to their core rather than disrupt to core to add Young. If they believe in the core, that's a benefit, and they preserve the ability to make other trades. Murray theoretical versatility means they could draft a player like Reed Sheppard without feeling like they're capping him as a backup PG. Theoretically he'd a strong fit with Murray in a way that he's not with Young.

Yup... Just the smaller price tag (both in terms of $ and picks) makes the path to adding a couple other guys (Naz, Okoro, Herb, or Avdija) a lot more easy to invision. It also gives a path to having enough salaries to cobble together if someone we truly covet comes available in the next couple years.

[TD 21]

Something like Murray and the Sacramento pick for Graham, Wesley/Branham, the Charlotte pick and the conversion the 2025 and 2027 picks into swaps. If the Toronto pick rolls over, that means the Spurs have two firsts in 2024, two protected firsts in 2025 and "double picks" for 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028 and 2030. They retain those future years of upside without having to worry about roster spots.

That's similar to what I'd peg a Spurs offer for Murray at: Graham, Craptors 1st (especially if it's '24, since Walter seems an ideal theoretical fit next to Young), Hornets 1st and '27 Hawks 1st.

I don't know that the Hawks would do the Kings 1st. I'm thinking Griffin is more likely.

[Chinook]

That's similar to what I'd peg a Murray to Spurs trade at: Graham, Craptors 1st (especially if it's '24, since Walter seems an ideal theoretical fit next to Young), Hornets 1st and '27 Hawks 1st.

I don't know that the Hawks would do the Kings 1st. I'm thinking Griffin is more likely.

Depends on if the Spurs like the Kings pick or Griffin, but I can imagine the Spurs wouldn't want a prospect halfway through their rookie deal. This is a more costly trade than the one I proposed, though who knows where the teams' lines are. It might be more realistic. One thing to note, though, is that Branham or Wesley might have to be in the deal to make the salaries work. I don't have that post that Bruno made, but the Spurs are probably around $20 Million in realistic cap space, and with DJM's salary being at $25 Million before the trade kicker, the Spurs would need to shed salary to make the deal work. Even so, ATL is basically getting Murray's salary off the books for almost complete cap space, which should have a lot of value to a team looking to retool around Young and Johnson. If they were trying to get more picks, I'd probably want the Spurs to add matching salary to preserve their own cap space for a different deal.

[offset formation]

Has someone explained to Wemby that the 2027 Atlanta pick is only 3 years away from being 3 years away from s om?

We have to wait and develop Collins, Branham, and Champagnie

Those Atlanta picks should be the ones that make us a decadal dynasty by extending the talent around Wemby to new heights. Would be Wemby's 7th or 8th year when we likely need some talent infusion. I get your point but those picks could be pure ing gold.

[CorrectCrusader]

Trae Young has made it as far as Luka has in the playoffs