Who Believes the Bible Is Literally True?

[scott]

With regards to the "Flying Spaghetti Monster theory": clue me in... whenever it addresses the genesis of life, of proteins, of the design of biological systems, of the information contained within DNA itself... post it. I'll be waiting.

I'll refer you to the official website of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster so that I don't misquote.

http://www.venganza.org/

OK so you want this argument to continue on end... I have other things to do as well you know. The 'agree to disagree' is not an ultimatum scott... it's a realization that you are as entrenched in your beliefs as I am in mine... nothing wrong with that. Some people just want to argue I guess.

With all due respect, this discussion is likely to continue whether you participate or not. Don't be afraid to "check out" at any time and not respond to one of my posts. I won't hold it against you.

[clambake]

Not everyone has a fantasy book led "the bible". Just all gods. So your book is better than the rest? Read the other "bibles" and you have to believe.

[clambake]

YOu have to believe because it is in your makeup, dna, genes. You chose the bible only because it was chosen for you. The side of the earth you were born on.

[gtownspur]

ok i get it.

Because there are so many GOd's that automatically means my GOd is a fake.

SO because there are many beliefs, all beliefs are fake.

And because there are many solutions, all solutions are not solutions.

You need to read a book and stop pirating your ideology from a sixth grade stoner halo party.

[clambake]

No no, if your god is real, then all gods are real. That is the logical explaination. Because of your belief in your god. Because of belief in all gods. The belief is what makes them exist.

[Phenomanul]

When you have some solid scientific evidence, come talk to me or the rest of the scientific community. Are scientists to take up every pet cause someone dreams up. Fact: no have no scientific evidence that an intelligent designer created the earth and life on it. No one is stopping ID proponents from going out and gathering solid scientific evidence, and yet there is none. It is hard to ignore something that doesn't exist.



I said I wanted religion (and for clarification atheism as well) out of school. You then went on to write about the decaying nature of our school system. What inference was I supposed to take from that? In any case, sorry if I misinterpreted your statements.



Well, thank you for admitting so.

Did you build a time machine already??? Damn.

I posted my response at 6:35 and you at 6:33 and yours already included a response to what I would say at 6:35....

Oh... I see the edit nevermind.

Speculation that admittedly can never be backed by scientific evidence does not belong in science classes. I've said in many threads and agreed with Spurm in this one that ID is a topic for a philosophy classes which debates the origin of the universe. So long as other theories are represented accordingly and no preference is giving to any of them in a public school setting - I think it would be a great high school course (although one that only the studious are likely to take, and good for them).

Evolutionary science has no foundation whatsoever unless it can explain the origin of life... and herein lies the conundrum...

I know Darwin, or speciation never attempted to define the origin of life but without it neither of their theories has much foundation...

I've said this on hundreds of occasions: speciation should not be confused for adaptation... the latter is a process describing how one species can use genetic information stored within its genes to manifest a different phenotype that will allow it to survive. The former, suggests a tree-like branching of all the species as derived from a single source.... Adaptation does not touch or address the subject of origins... and we can see it around us; we can experiment with it; there is tangible data....

Since the critical clause mentioned above for speciation cannot be tested, under your own premise, it cannot be taught as science either...

[Phenomanul]

YOu have to believe because it is in your makeup, dna, genes. You chose the bible only because it was chosen for you. The side of the earth you were born on.

Junior Varsity.... sorry I couldn't resist... the above clauses are just too confusing to read.

[clambake]

Boa hammerin' down again. YOu might find your answers if you ask a holyman from some other religion.

[clambake]

Other relegions and other gods are no more real or not real than yours. The god playing field is level.

[gtownspur]

Other relegions and other gods are no more real or not real than yours. The god playing field is level.

WHy are the playing feilds level?

[Phenomanul]

I'll refer you to the official website of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster so that I don't misquote.

http://www.venganza.org/



With all due respect, this discussion is likely to continue whether you participate or not. Don't be afraid to "check out" at any time and not respond to one of my posts. I won't hold it against you.

Do you know what the word 'venganza' means???

It means 'revenge', and derived from the same root word that gave rise to the word 'vendetta'...

Why oh why would a church stake its website name on those grounds???

The whole thing is an ill-humored parody on what they believe ID is trying to attain.... Sadly, it does not address any of the questions that ID tries to answer and in doing so, loses much of its purported intent...

[clambake]

Boa has his gods back. Taking up for the big man is apparantly a full time gig. Remember, your god is a god amongst other gods.

[scott]

Evolutionary science has no foundation whatsoever unless it can explain the origin of life... and herein lies the conundrum...

I know Darwin, or speciation never attempted to define the origin of life but without it neither of their theories has much foundation...

I've said this on hundreds of occasions: speciation should not be confused for adaptation... the latter is a process describing how one species can use genetic information stored within its genes to manifest a different phenotype that will allow it to survive. The former, suggests a tree-like branching of all the species as derived from a single source.... Adaptation does not touch or address the subject of origins... and we can see it around us; we can experiment with it; there is tangible data....

Since the critical clause mentioned above for speciation cannot be tested, under your own premise, it cannot be taught as science either...

I'm sorry you are apparently unable to wrap your head around the difference between the origin of species and the origin of life. Best of luck to you in that respect.

[scott]

Do you know what the word 'venganza' means???

It means 'revenge', and derived from the same root word that gave rise to the word 'vendetta'...

Why oh why would a church stake its website name on those grounds???

The whole thing is an ill-humored parody on what they believe ID is trying to attain.... Sadly, it does not address any of the questions that ID tries to answer and in doing so, loses much of its purported intent...

You win the golden "No Duh" award.

Anyway, it doesn't have to address any of the questions ID tries to answer... the answer is that the FSM made it so. No other explanation is needed. And it takes the same time machine you mentioned to prove or disprove it.

[Phenomanul]

I'm sorry you are apparently unable to wrap your head around the difference between the origin of species and the origin of life. Best of luck to you in that respect.

I understand the difference fairly well... but our youth and teens don't know the difference... Instead they are driven to accept the speculative nature of the origin of speciation as a scientific fact... or not they get an 'F'... pretty fair huh???

Again... what you call 'science' conveniently ignores this huge step... the fact of the matter is with all of our advancement in technology, we will still fail to find a natural, unguided process that can create life from nothing...

Or a process that can create a consciousness....
Or one that describes how the coded information contained in DNA was engineered to produce the massive array of protiens we see throughout the natural kingdom.
Or one that would describe what would drive an inanimate molecule such as DNA to want to replicate itself to begin with... and without the aid of stabilizing proteins... made by DNA itself... A very big problem.

And you are mistaken if I want the search to end... the more we search for these answers the more the notion of a GOD created universe will look like an equally viable option... and I ought to rephrase that... the more that people will take GOD for his word instead of a fic ious liar... or worse; a parodic 'spaghetti monster'.

[gtownspur]

hegamboa,

Cynicism trumps truth in here.

[scott]

Again... what you call 'science' conveniently ignores this huge step... the fact of the matter is with all of our advancement in technology, we will still fail to find a natural, unguided process that can create life from nothing...

We still also fail to find a supernatural, unguided process that can create life from nothing that is based on anything other than a 2000 year old book. Sorry, but that nugget of evidence doesn't compel me either way. I'm okay with "not knowing" until we know... until then I have no inclination to just assume a supernatural power.

[gtownspur]

We still also fail to find a supernatural, unguided process that can create life from nothing that is based on anything other than a 2000 year old book. Sorry, but that nugget of evidence doesn't compel me either way. I'm okay with "not knowing" until we know... until then I have no inclination to just assume a supernatural power.

In that case you should not have an inclination for the other since there is doubt as well(?)

here you go.

[scott]

In that case you should not have an inclination for the other since there is doubt as well.

Dammit gtownspur... do I have to call you illiterate again?

[scott]

I understand the difference fairly well... but our youth and teens don't know the difference... Instead they are driven to accept the speculative nature of the origin of speciation as a scientific fact... or not they get an 'F'... pretty fair huh???

We have a lot of scientific evidence backing the theory of evolution and the origin of species (not the origin of the universe/life). So much in fact that we call it the "theory" of evolution - and you know the scientific implications of that word. We don't have to know where something comes from to know how it works.

I'll concede that science teachers should distinguish between the origin of species and the origin of the universe/life as to avoid any confusion. If they don't, they are doing a disserve. But the fact that some youngsters may confuse the two isn't reason to absolutely discount these theories.

[Phenomanul]

We still also fail to find a supernatural, unguided process that can create life from nothing that is based on anything other than a 2000 year old book. Sorry, but that nugget of evidence doesn't compel me either way. I'm okay with "not knowing" until we know... until then I have no inclination to just assume a supernatural power.

But my faith has led me to experience GOD's presence... (no holier than thou message here)... As explained earlier we have all been extended HIS free gift of salvation.... it's just a matter of accepting it.

If I know GOD exists based on my interaction with HIM, from HIS daily guidance... then I can take HIM for HIS Word on the other... that is, HIS creation of the world... proof is irrelevant in this light....

But again that doesn't preclude me from asking questions, or seeking out their answers... neither does it show a lack a faith on my part. The scientist in me wants to find these answers... and I'm not the only one. Unfortunately the work of these groups is dismissed as pseudo-science... so be it.

[Phenomanul]

We have a lot of scientific evidence backing the theory of evolution and the origin of species (not the origin of the universe/life). So much in fact that we call it the "theory" of evolution - and you know the scientific implications of that word. We don't have to know where something comes from to know how it works.

I'll concede that science teachers should distinguish between the origin of species and the origin of the universe/life as to avoid any confusion. If they don't, they are doing a disservice. But the fact that some youngsters may confuse the two isn't reason to absolutely discount these theories.

I don't discount them... I understand that that is the way others choose to view things. Oh and all the evidence we do have is for adaptation... not speciation.

But think about it.... how can science claim to explain the origin of the species with so many missing gaps between the major animal/plant groups and without addressing how the most primitive of species even came into being...

It would be like our present numbering system lacking a zero or a one.

[jochhejaam]

See, I disagree. Every Christian struggles with his faith or has doubts at some point in his life. I question the sincerity of anyone who claims he hasn't.

My Brother, you're free to question my sincerity but it is what it is. I have doubts as to why things happen the way they do but I'm acutely aware that the doubts are due to my finite mind and my shortcomings and have nothing to do with my complete faith and trust that ultimately God has things under control. This self awareness of my own weakness actually strengthens my faith in God. (less of me, more of God)
If you have doubts about Him being in control and believe He has weaknesses and can convince me of these weaknesses then I would probably have doubts or lack of faith in God, other than that I can't think of any reason why my faith and trust in God should waver.

Doubts in myself? Yes. Doubts in God? No.

James 1:6-7 "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;"

[Phenomanul]

My Brother, you're free to question my sincerity but it is what it is. I have doubts as to why things happen the way they do but I'm acutely aware that the doubts are due to my finite mind and my shortcomings and have nothing to do with my complete faith and trust that ultimately God has things under control. This self awareness of my own weakness actually strengthens my faith in God. (less of me, more of God)
If you have doubts about Him being in control and believe He has weaknesses and can convince me of these weaknesses then I would probably have doubts or lack of faith in God, other than that I can't think of any reason why my faith and trust in God should waver.

Doubts in myself? Yes. Doubts in God? No.

Well said... no disrespect intended for Spurminator... this is just a more elaborate perspective on the issue of 'self-doubt'.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

See, thats exactly it. No Joch, people dont see it your way and the fact that you wouldnt even entertain the notion that you (gasp!) maybe wrong is what makes people puke all over your shoes.

That's a rather pompous statement DR. The majority of people I've met in my Church and many of my family members do see it my way. Show me where I've stated that I'm always right. You're probably confusing the fact that I total faith in God and believe that He is always right.
If that makes you want to puke all over my shoes, so what. I'm here to please God and some people appreciate that and some don't. My belief is that it boils down to your disdain for God trickling down to his believers and I'm happy to be in the company of God and his believers.

You know youre right. With absolute certainty. No matter the evidence, no matter the consequence, you will follow the Word.
To you, thats faith.

I know God's right with absolute certainity. How is that faulty and why would that bother you? How does that impact you negatively in any way whatsoever?