ESPN Top 10 Centers

[bobbyjoe]

You've lost all credibility whatsoever on the subject. Del Negro?

Go ahead.... look up his numbers.


Now I know you must be smokin' some of that green stuff....

Penny, Kobe, and Wade are way better team-mates than any DRob ever had before Timmy's arrival. You must be delusional to compare All-NBA 1st Teamers with the likes of Elliott, Del Negro, Person, or mings.

And you keep ignoring the clutchness factor. The Lakers enjoyed having the likes of Horry, Fisher, in their clutch prime and still rather productive shooters like Shaw, Harper, and Rice. Those guys were series closers. They were a 'go-to' move in and of themselves. David never (Repeat NEVER) enjoyed the company of playing with such clutch shooters... Again not 'till Duncan attracted players like Kerr, Elie and Daren Jackson.



You act as if Rodman gave a crap about that series. He played as if he were on Houston's payroll not San Antonio's.

You exaggerate my stance by bringing players like Jordan or Bird into the mix. 1) They're not centers. 2) Ergo, they're not comparable and 3) Your facetiousness detracts from the argument. It's like trying to compare Yao Ming with Chris Paul

So Elliott (Mem Day Miracle) wasnt clutch?

How about DRob? DRob was clutch? Cmon now.

[whottt]

Rodman was washed up by the time he came to the Lakers. He was old by the time the Bulls 2nd 3peat was over and the stints with Dallas/LA would be like if Pippen tried to come back now.

Charles Barkley was known to jack up low % 3 pointers too, but that doesnt mean he wasnt an asset.

I dont care how crazy he is, guys like Rodman who are such great rebounders and defenders are assets.

Look at the job Rodman did on the Bulls when he frustrated Karl Malone, Shaq in 96, and Alonzo Mourning in the playoffs. He was like a Bruce Bowen, getting in people's head's with borderline dirty play.

No way do the Bulls from 96-98 win 3 les without what Rodman brought them. The Spurs didnt have the leadership from DRob or Bob Hill like he received from MJ and Phil Jackson in Chicago and that was the main difference as far as Rodman going off the edge less in CHI than he did in SA.

If Shaq had a younger Rodman like DRob did, the team would just bludgeon you in the paint with Rodman cleaning up the mess when Shaq didnt power the ball into the basket.

False...Rodman was waived for missing practice and being a distraction.

Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...rodman_waived/


And when Phil Jackson was asked if he wanted Rodman once becoming coach of the Lakers, he said point blank that the team was too young and inexperienced to handle Rodman's antics. While the Bulls had won 3 championships prior and had both Pippen and Jordan to overshadow him and set an example.

Way to go LAKER FAN...

You expect me to believe you were watching in 94-95 when you weren't even watching your own team in 99?


And I know you didn't seriously just compare the 3 point shooting of Charles Barkley to Dennis Rodman...

If you look at Shaq's supporting casts in LA, besides Kobe, the team didnt have much. Horry was strictly a 3 point shooter.

And Duncan defender par excellence...

Horry was signed by the Spurs because of his ability to defend Duncan, IE so the Lakers wouldn't have it...even Duncan sad so.

How can you discount Horry when he's hit huge game winning, IMO, series deciding shots for Duncan, Hakeem, and Shaq?

Drob had Elliott choking FT's.

I think Robinson's 95 supporting cast with Elliott, Rodman, AJ, Person at least equals a couple of the casts from Shaq's LA years.

If anyone really thinks that any NBA GM would think twice about a 94-95 DRob vs. a 00-02 Shaq, they're just in denial.

The Magic would...

Shaq is arguably the greatest Center EVER. DRob is arguably top 7 or 8. No one puts DRob in the top 5.

Show me one time Shaq outplayed Drob prior to his back injury...

in 01 when the Spurs ran the offense through Drob in game 3 Drob had Shaq's ass in foul trouble. And that was old broken down DRob, Shaq still wasn't fast enough to defend him. No one was. Not even guys like Webber were fast enough...not even when he was old.

None of those guys were fast enough to guard Drob, including Hakeem, he'd foul them out. He was also the best FT shooter of any of them.

That's once reason why he got doubled and tripled more than any of them...because the multiple defenders coverd up the fouls. And unlike Hakeem and Shaq and Duncan...Drob's teamates never made them pay. He didn't have the agressive teamates that those guys did.

He didn't have Cassell coming off the bench for 30 points... his starting guards didn't score like that, much less his back ups.

[whottt]

And Rodman was waived by the Mavs for talking about Cuban....

He never lost the ability to rebound at a level to keep him in the NBA...he was just too much of a distraction and cancer to be an asset to any team that didn't have...oh Michael Jordan and his 3 rings leading it.

[SRJ]

I think it's a shame Hakeem and Dave only had one playoff shot at each other. One series, while decisvely in Hakeem's favor, just isn't enough. Dirk and Tim have squared off three times in the playoffs. , Malone and Jordan got two cracks at each other from opposite conferences. Bird and Magic did it three times in the Finals. Only one series is a little unfair.

I can't find David's statistics from the 1995 WCF, but IIRC David played well himself but just got outplayed. Statistically speaking, is this true?

[whottt]

David's FG% sucked...other than that his numbers were decent...not as good as Hakeem's scoring but pretty good. Not just for that series, but for that entire playoff run.

Not as bad as 93-94 but pretty bad.

David's FG% started sucking once the AJ and Vinny era was ushered in...prior to that, in the Strickland and Willie Anderson era his FG% was excellent...

Including 91, when his 68% FG shooting tops anything ever done by Shaq, Hakeem or Duncan for a playoff series....or Wilt, or Kareem, for that matter.

Drob became "soft" and all of a sudden couldn't score right around the time his guards started to suck and he started getting doubled and tripled routinely in the post season.

Basically the Spurs were a one man team and if you geared a team to stop David Robinson you could stop the Spurs. It's just that simple.

And Hakeem started winning les once he was surrounded with a cast that would punish anyone that doubled or tripled him(EG: the 93-94 Rockets setting the record for 3 pointers made and taken in a season).

Rocket fan would like you to believe that Hakeem made all those guys the great shooters that they were...Horry, Elie etc.

[whottt]

SRJ...

Here's Drob's numbers from the 94-95 Playoffs

PPG - 25.3
RB - 12.1
FG%: - 45

In that particular series I believe Drob put up about 23 and 11 on 43% shooting.


To further prove how Drob gets the shaft...

These are Duncan's numbers from our last le:

PPG - 23.6
RB - 12.4
FG% - 46


Need I say more?


Now let's take a look at Drob's numbers prior to AJ and Vinny

1990
PPG - 24.4
RB - 12.0
FG% - 53

1991
PPG - 25.8
RB - 13.5
FG% - 69

With AJ and or Vinny:
1993
PPG - 23.1
RB - 12.6
FG% - 46

1994(Vinny at PG)
PPG - 20.0
RB - 10.0
FG% - 41

1995
Already posted

1996
PPG - 23.1
RB - 10.1
FG% - 52

You can see clearly see a huge dip in his FG% when all of a sudden he had a PG who not only couldn't make a shot outside of a layup...but wouldn't even attempt it. And that was the better guard of the two...


Most people like to say Drob didn't want to win...but I think if you look at his numbers when he actually had halfway decent NBA caliber guards you will see that he was anything but soft...and anything but a disappontment...

He was either leading his team to the biggest single seaosn turnaround in NBA history and taking his team to 7 games against an eventual finalist...or being pretty much unstoppable by a single defender and scoring at a PCT that makes even Shaq blush.



It definitely hurt him...not having guards that could break a d down or punish double teams with their perimeter shooting.

Like I say...I wanna see what these other mofos do with Vinny and AJ. The only evidence we have is Hakeem not even making hte playoffs with AJ.


AJ and Vinny were not NBA caliber starting guards...period...and you can pretty much look at their careers outside of the Spurs and Drob and see what the results were...both numbers wise and team performance wise.

Hakeem didn't even make the playoffs the year he had AJ....and a lot of other years he was more worried about getting paid than playing...so much for love of the game.

Meanwhile Drob and Kareem are the only players in NBA history to lead a post season in rebounds and blocks...


A Drob lead team was never swept...can't say that about Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem...Hakeem had more first round exits than DRob. And what may surprise many fans is that the Spurs had a winning post season record in the Drob era...aint easy with that cast.


When DRob went out with injury, it was the largest negative turnaround in NBA history...the Spurs had a losing record bigtime in games Drob missed during his prime.

Drob is clearly the most under-rated player in the modern era of NBA history...including by fans of his own team.

And when you look at the head to head matchups...he pretty much slapped all these guys...Hakeem matched up with him the best statistically...but Hakeem also had a game smackdam in his prime where he was held to 6 points by Drob.

He was putting up trip doubles and near quads on Shaq...laying 52 points on Zo Mourning...

Leading hte NBA in FTA, Dunks, Scoring, Rebounding, BLocks...

He was an insanely gifted player who does not get the credit he deserves.

[SRJ]

Thanks, whott...

BTW, as a huge Robinson fan myself, I could accept certainly accept criticisms of the Admiral - except for that "soft" bull . No one who said it ever defined it (meaning they just didn't like DRob), and for those who believed it had something to do with a disinclination toward physical play, that's pure idiocy. David spent the vast majority of his basketball career colliding with something. , he averaged over 10 boards a game while Dennis Rodman was his teammate - does that sound like Alvan Adams to you? Not me.

[whottt]

Thanks, whott...

BTW, as a huge Robinson fan myself, I could accept certainly accept criticisms of the Admiral - except for that "soft" bull . No one who said it ever defined it (meaning they just didn't like DRob), and for those who believed it had something to do with a disinclination toward physical play, that's pure idiocy. David spent the vast majority of his basketball career colliding with something. , he averaged over 10 boards a game while Dennis Rodman was his teammate - does that sound like Alvan Adams to you? Not me.

Werd up...soft players don't lead the NBA in FTA multiple times and rank among the all time leaders in what was a very abbreviated prime.

And straight on about Rodoman too...

Drob gave his response to Rodman by leading the NBA in rebounds the year after Rodman was traded away.


Soft players just don't lead the NBA in categories like Rebounding and FTA multiple times...

To quote Charles Barkley...rebounding is about desire...Drob lead the league in that category twice.


And for a guy with no offensive game it sure is funny how he was the first center in 30 years to lead the NBA in scoring and the only other Center besides Wilt to score 70+ points in a game...

One last bit of trivia then I am done...

Drob won the IBM award given to the player who did the most to help his team win just about every year of his prime, and in the relatively new science of basketball winshares and Wins, Drob, Malone, Stockton and Jordan are the only players in the top 5 of both...the supporting casts speak for themselves.

And Drob remains the only player aside from MJ to win a scoring le, MVP, and a DPOY award.

Diffierence is that MJ's team won 55 games annualy whether he was retired, or not, and still challenged for the finals when he left...Drob's set the record for the biggest single season slide in NBA history.

[whottt]

How about DRob? DRob was clutch? Cmon now.

Drob wasn't clutch on offense, but he also wasn't a choker. IF he took a game winner he'd make about half of them and miss about half of them. He was streaky with his J.

Whether he was clutch or not...he drew mutiple defenders in crunch time because if they weren't on him he was going to be at the basket or at the FT line.

Drob wasn't the guy making no look passes out of bounds(or screwing up the play) and missing the game winning FT's(as an 80% career FT shooter).

And Drob didn't have Robert Horry and Mario Elie hitting game winners for him...he had them hitting them against him.

Drob didn't have Cassell coming off the bench for 30 in a game 5...he didn't have Fisher setting an NBA Conference Finals Record for 3PT PCT...

He had the guy giving those numbers up.


You can make an argument for Hakeem...he whupped up on all the C man to man when he had the team to do so(including Shaq), and his career numbers own everyone but Kareem or Wilt...

But I think if you stick AJ and Vinny on the Champion Rockets as the best guards Hakeem doesn't win ...I doubt he even makes the playoffs.


And Shaq has probably had the best guards in NBA history outside of Kareem...Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade? You are freaking insane if you don't think those guys make a difference to Drob's career.

[whottt]

BTW...here's the best youtube clip I can find of Drob in his prime...

It includes his 360 dunk.

It's also got some nice footage of Elliott in his prime.

[hitmanyr2k]

Werd up...soft players don't lead the NBA in FTA multiple times and rank among the all time leaders in what was a very abbreviated prime.

And straight on about Rodoman too...

Drob gave his response to Rodman by leading the NBA in rebounds the year after Rodman was traded away.


Soft players just don't lead the NBA in categories like Rebounding and FTA multiple times...

To quote Charles Barkley...rebounding is about desire...Drob lead the league in that category twice.


And for a guy with no offensive game it sure is funny how he was the first center in 30 years to lead the NBA in scoring and the only other Center besides Wilt to score 70+ points in a game...

One last bit of trivia then I am done...

Drob won the IBM award given to the player who did the most to help his team win just about every year of his prime, and in the relatively new science of basketball winshares and Wins, Drob, Malone, Stockton and Jordan are the only players in the top 5 of both...the supporting casts speak for themselves.

And Drob remains the only player aside from MJ to win a scoring le, MVP, and a DPOY award.

Diffierence is that MJ's team won 55 games annualy whether he was retired, or not, and still challenged for the finals when he left...Drob's set the record for the biggest single season slide in NBA history.

You can list accomplishments until you're blue in the face. Yeah, D-Rob did all that but not once did he lead his team to a le. bobbyjoe is absolutely correct in saying that Robinson is another version of Kevin Garnett. Another jumpshooting 7 footer. He can get you all the numbers in the world but he wasn't going to deliver a championship with his kind of game. The guy had NO go-to moves when games got tight. I still question how in the he never developed that aspect of his game in all those years. Built like a brickhouse and no back-to-the-basket game.

What do Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan all have in common? Strong post games and rings. They could dominate the paint, wear down defenses, and get a high percentage shot for themselves or their teammates any time they wanted. D-Rob (before Duncan), Garnett, Karl Malone and the rest of those jumpshooting big men have nothing because all they had was a jumpshot to rely on when things got tough. And when pressure time came the basket got smaller for those kind of players.

[Cry Havoc]

You can list accomplishments until you're blue in the face. Yeah, D-Rob did all that but not once did he lead his team to a le. bobbyjoe is absolutely correct in saying that Robinson is another version of Kevin Garnett. Another jumpshooting 7 footer. He can get you all the numbers in the world but he wasn't going to deliver a championship with his kind of game. The guy had NO go-to moves when games got tight. I still question how in the he never developed that aspect of his game in all those years. Built like a brickhouse and no back-to-the-basket game.

What do Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan all have in common? Strong post games and rings. They could dominate the paint, wear down defenses, and get a high percentage shot for themselves or their teammates any time they wanted. D-Rob (before Duncan), Garnett, Karl Malone and the rest of those jumpshooting big men have nothing because all they had was a jumpshot to rely on when things got tough. And when pressure time came the basket got smaller for those kind of players.

Because obviously, Duncan and Shaq would win six rings with Vinny Del Negro as the starting point guard.

[whottt]

bobbyjoe is absolutely correct in saying that Robinson is another version of Kevin Garnett. Another jumpshooting 7 footer.

[hitmanyr2k]

Because obviously, Duncan and Shaq would win six rings with Vinny Del Negro as the starting point guard.

Yeah, because Derek Fisher's 5 points, 2 assists, and 1 rebound were so key during the Lakers first le run Seriously, ask yourself who the would Derek Fisher be without Shaq? In fact ask yourself what would an aging Ron Harper, a perennial loser in Rick Fox, scrub Brian Shaw, Robert Horry, an over-the-hill Glen Rice, old ass A.C. Green and an inconsistent rising star in Kobe Bryant be without Shaq? You put that group with David Robinson and they don't win that year. That first Laker le was a product of Shaq's supreme dominance. The guy got double and triple-teamed and STILL found ways to score.

And I don't think the Vinny/Avery combination was any worse than the TP/Claxton combination in 2003. And let's not forget Parker wasn't exactly consistent in 2005 either...especially in the Finals. Couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life.

[baseline bum]

Rodman was washed up by the time he came to the Lakers.

Bull . Rodman averaged 11.2 rebounds in 28 minutes a night in his 23 games in LA. He was waived because he was a ing nutcase who killed that locker room and didn't want to play defense.

Charles Barkley was known to jack up low % 3 pointers too, but that doesnt mean he wasnt an asset.

Barkley started shooting the three in Houston. I used to live there, and watched tons of his games. The difference is, Barkley had range and could hit a three if you left him open. Charles ended up being a pretty good shooter from 15-20 feet out late in his career.

I dont care how crazy he is, guys like Rodman who are such great rebounders and defenders are assets.

Rodman refused to defend Horry. Horry was getting all kinds of lobs in transition in game 2 of that series. He didn't play any brand of defense in that series. It was like he said it, Horry's a tough matchup, so I ain't guarding him.

Look at the job Rodman did on the Bulls when he frustrated Karl Malone, Shaq in 96, and Alonzo Mourning in the playoffs. He was like a Bruce Bowen, getting in people's head's with borderline dirty play.

No one doubts his natural talent, or ability to play when he wants to. He wanted to in Chicago, because if he didn't, Jordan would kill him.

If Shaq had a younger Rodman like DRob did, the team would just bludgeon you in the paint with Rodman cleaning up the mess when Shaq didnt power the ball into the basket.

Like I just showed before, Rodman was still killing on the glass. If he was so washed up, how come he put up 14.3 boards per game the next year in Dallas?

If you look at Shaq's supporting casts in LA, besides Kobe, the team didnt have much. Horry was strictly a 3 point shooter. DFish and Fox weren't strong players and Shaw was old and slow. Ho Grant was well past his prime and ineffective.

Yeah... Fisher sucked when he shot 75% from the three point line against the Spurs in the 2001 WCF. Don't give me that garbage about Horry being just a three-point shooter. I watched about 75% of Lakers games in the three-peat (I moved to LA the year they won the first of those), and Horry was your best interior defender, and the team's #2 rebounder. He was by far one of the best sixth men I've ever seen.

I think Robinson's 95 supporting cast with Elliott, Rodman, AJ, Person at least equals a couple of the casts from Shaq's LA years.

When has Shaq ever had a bad supporting cast? 96-98 he had Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel, when they were All-Stars. By 99, Kobe had developed into a top 5 guard, and by 2000 he was a top 3 guard. By 2001 he was the best guard in the league. Plus, you had Rice in 99 and then in 2000, who was considered the best mid-range shooter in the game when he was acquired.

That supporting cast sure sucked when they won you game 7 of the WCF vs Portland.... you know, the one Shaq never showed up in until that lob from Kobe (after the Lakers had already made the comeback and taken the lead). The one where Rice was killing Portland on the block.

Not to mention the clutch shooting of Ron Harper in 2000. Kobe and Fisher won you the series in 2001. Fox was an absolute lock-down defensive player in 2001. By 2002, Kobe was an MVP-level player, and Rob was still saving your asses with his late-game heroics. Fast-forward to 2003, and you have a #2 guy who sets the record for the most 40-point games in a row in NBA history. Some ty support for Shaq, huh? The very next season you start four Hall of Famers.

If anyone really thinks that any NBA GM would think twice about a 94-95 DRob vs. a 00-02 Shaq, they're just in denial.

That's maybe the only thing I agree with you on here. Of course '00 and '01 Shaq was better than David in his two best years (94 and 95).

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah, because Derek Fisher's 5 points, 2 assists, and 1 rebound were so key during the Lakers first le run Seriously, ask yourself who the would Derek Fisher be without Shaq? In fact ask yourself what would an aging Ron Harper, a perennial loser in Rick Fox, scrub Brian Shaw, Robert Horry, an over-the-hill Glen Rice, old ass A.C. Green and an inconsistent rising star in Kobe Bryant be without Shaq? You put that group with David Robinson and they don't win that year. That first Laker le was a product of Shaq's supreme dominance. The guy got double and triple-teamed and STILL found ways to score.

And I don't think the Vinny/Avery combination was any worse than the TP/Claxton combination in 2003. And let's not forget Parker wasn't exactly consistent in 2005 either...especially in the Finals. Couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life.

Kobe's numbers that year: 22.5 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 4.9 APG on 47% shooting. Hardly inconsistant.

And if you'll recall, that Laker team wasn't exactly five or six dimensional. They had Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of three point shooters who could play decent defense at that point in their careers.

[baseline bum]

Rocket fan would like you to believe that Hakeem made all those guys the great shooters that they were...Horry, Elie etc.

Don't forget the NBA rule change where the line was like 2 feet closer from 93-94 until 94-95 also.

[baseline bum]

And I don't think the Vinny/Avery combination was any worse than the TP/Claxton combination in 2003. And let's not forget Parker wasn't exactly consistent in 2005 either...especially in the Finals. Couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life.

AJ was a good player, though never as good as even 2003 Parker. Del Negro was garbage. He was like Stojakovic lite. If you wanted 19 point in February against the Clippers, Vinny was your man. Then, he'd follow that up with three 5-7 point games. Del Negro was extremely inconsistent, except in the playoffs, when he was consistently worthless. Vinny Del Negro is the crap they signed when they were too cheap to pay Strickland.

[hitmanyr2k]

Kobe's numbers that year: 22.5 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 4.9 APG on 47% shooting. Hardly inconsistant.

And if you'll recall, that Laker team wasn't exactly five or six dimensional. They had Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of three point shooters who could play decent defense at that point in their careers.

In the playoffs every single one of his numbers dropped (21 ppg, 4.5 assists, 4.5 rebs on 44% shooting). The further the playoffs went the worse he got. Take a look at his numbers against Portland in the WCF and against Indiana in the Finals. He had some very good games mixed with some absolutely terrible ones. There was nothing consistent about him.

[ambchang]

What do Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan all have in common? Strong post games and rings. They could dominate the paint, wear down defenses, and get a high percentage shot for themselves or their teammates any time they wanted. D-Rob (before Duncan), Garnett, Karl Malone and the rest of those jumpshooting big men have nothing because all they had was a jumpshot to rely on when things got tough. And when pressure time came the basket got smaller for those kind of players.

You gotta love post-up big men like Larry Bird, and hate jump shooting big men like Charles Barkley.

[Purple & Gold]

All this talk about Robinson being under appreciated is funny as . He's considered a top 10 center ever, what else do you guys want. That's pretty damn good. The first three are interchangeable. It's a matter of preference between Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. After that comes Hakeem and Shaq. I would also put Malone above Robinson. As for Walton even though he was very dominant in his little time, had a very short healthy pro career. That's the only one I could see you complain about. All this talk that he got shafted and is under appreciated is ridiculous.

[hitmanyr2k]

You gotta love post-up big men like Larry Bird, and hate jump shooting big men like Charles Barkley.

Try subs uting Larry Bird with Kevin McHale and you may be on to something.

[ambchang]

Try subs uting Larry Bird with Kevin McHale and you may be on to something.

So you are saying McHale led the Celtics to those 3 championship rather than Bird? Afterall, Bird doesn't have a strong postup game, and that was supposed to be strongly correlated to a player's ability to lead his team to rings.

[hitmanyr2k]

So you are saying McHale led the Celtics to those 3 championship rather than Bird? Afterall, Bird doesn't have a strong postup game, and that was supposed to be strongly correlated to a player's ability to lead his team to rings.

Any idiot knows Bird had a deep team at his disposal and Kevin Mchale's low post game was damn near unstoppable. Just because Mchale doesn't get his name in the lights like Bird doesn't mean . Fact is the Celtics HAD a legit low post threat...one of the best of their era. , even Bird had a post game...wasn't as prolific as Mchale's but he had one nonetheless. It still doesn't excuse David Robinson for being lazy and not adding to his game over the years. Mchale didn't start out with a devastating low post game. He developed it and became a better player for it. Ditto for Hakeem Olajuwon. Had Robinson put in the work and refined his game to be a more rounded player maybe his ranking would be a bit higher.

[Dalhoop]

I would post on this thread, but you seem to be argueing about who is 5th-6th all time, I would be happy with either